How to rebuild

[maxlion]

I'm a fan of Cortez, who won the cup a mere 2 years ago and was fine last year until Sunseri became his best option at qb. Overall, coaching is not a weakness on this team. We mainly lose because of mistakes at crucial times from our young guys.

I think there were Rider fans last year who would argue whether or not he was fine. He was so fine that JC is a revelation to them. Cortez lost the lockerroom and jettisoned out of Hamilton in less than two seasons.

How you can classify the work of McMann and Washington as 'not a weakness' is beyond me, but there are plenty of people who have done more than make that case more articulately than I.

Fans are fickle. Riders were 8-2 when Durant went down. At the time, fans thought that Sunseri was a great young qb and that Cortez was responsible for his inability to perform. The year before, they scored 45 points in the grey cup game to win. If you go over to ridersfans, you won't find many wanting to bring JC back. And I think that we are all in agreement that Cortez doesn't have the demeanor to be a head coach.

ST teams have been up and down this year. We've had a couple of very good games, mostly thanks to Rainey, and at least one game where ST cost us. But, again, who's to blame when Rainey fumbles or Leone misses a 15 yarder? Got to be fair.

[cromartie]

I'm a fan of Cortez, who won the cup a mere 2 years ago and was fine last year until Sunseri became his best option at qb. Overall, coaching is not a weakness on this team. We mainly lose because of mistakes at crucial times from our young guys.

I think there were Rider fans last year who would argue whether or not he was fine. He was so fine that JC is a revelation to them. Cortez lost the lockerroom and jettisoned out of Hamilton in less than two seasons.

How you can classify the work of McMann and Washington as 'not a weakness' is beyond me, but there are plenty of people who have done more than make that case more articulately than I.

Fans are fickle. Riders were 8-2 when Durant went down. At the time, fans thought that Sunseri was a great young qb and that Cortez was responsible for his inability to perform. The year before, they scored 45 points in the grey cup game to win. If you go over to ridersfans, you won't find many wanting to bring JC back. And I think that we are all in agreement that Cortez doesn't have the demeanor to be a head coach.

ST teams have been up and down this year. We've had a couple of very good games, mostly thanks to Rainey, and at least one game where ST cost us. But, again, who's to blame when Rainey fumbles or Leone misses a 15 yarder? Got to be fair.

I am fair. Our kick coverage and punt coverage have been below average to downright bad for a number of years now. More than a few veteran players consistently underperform on Special Teams, either as returns, gunners or as primary protectors, and little to nothing is done. We're caught napping more than occasionally on onsides plays due to a lack of situational awareness, and that's on the Special Teams coach, who has more than worn out his welcome here.

[Blitz]

Then why is our defense playing so much better now that we have Roh outside, rather than inside, Minter inside with Brooks for a while now, and Westerman taking reps inside and now that we are blitzing more, using Bighill, Johnson, and Lee most often as blitzers and getting pressure on quarterbacks so often, we are now getting interceptions and playing defense much better.

But that has nothing to do with coaching?

Well, I don't understand that either. I could say that it takes time to figure out how best to integrate new players, and there is a learning curve for guys playing their first CFL games, but obviously the coaches were trying something that wasn't working. I'm not sold on Washington, and didn't agree with letting Stubler go at the time, but our defense has shown some improvement and has mostly played well enough to give us a chance to win most games. Could be better, but some of that is on the players too.

Rarely is there an all or nothing or a black and white reason for a team's performance or lack thereof.

But you almost have to be brain dead as a coach to insert a rookie defensive end/linebacker into the nose tackle position when he never played there at college, didn't practice there for most of training camp, and is 260 pounds. It took 11 games for us to use Roh at his natural position. I could go on about Westerman moving to defensive end but instead, will make the general point that the decisions we made for most of this season on our defensive line were a learning curve that was glacial in speed and never should have happened in the first place.

In terms of overall defensive coaching, to play a standard four man defensive line, with the full knowledge game after game, that we were not getting pressure on the quarterback, while sitting in a passive straight up zone defense, while offences shredded us game after game, both with the run and the pass, is more than a slow learning curve.

To use Bighill on most downs as a safety, from his linebacker position, was an experiment in craziness..and offences also knew we were doing that and exploited it game after game. There are many ways of preventing the deep ball, if you feel your defense is weak in that are, from personell to strategy and this concept was ill advised and proved to be ill advised and yet we continued it game after game.

We came into this season, on our defense, with players who had experience and successful experience in our lineup before 2015. Those players include Smith, Bazzie, Menard, Westerman, Eliminian, Hoffman, Bighill, Phillips, Yell, Lee, Parks, and Josh Johnson The only rookie players in our defensive lineup this year are Brooks and Roh.

Our defense is not playing better because our so called younger players are playing better, for the most part. Yes, Brooks is getting better but he was pretty good from the start of the season, while being double teamed. T.J. Lee, who played very well at corner last season had to adjust to inside halfback and there was a learning curve there. Rhabukunga and Fraser had previous experience at safety but not with out team. Ronnie Yell played great for us at corner last year.

This is not just a bunch of rookies on defense who needed to 'learn' this season. While I agree that some of our play on defense is on the players, it seems more than obvious to me, that much more is on Washington. Our defense, that was giving up the most yards rushing and passing in the CFL for most of the season have 'suddenly' started playing a hell of a lot better, as soon as we got some players back to their natural positions and started blitzing a few more times and we gave up on using Bighill as a safety (mostly due to Eliminian's injury). Experienced players that were playing lousy suddenly started to play well. Interceptions were as rare as a a dodo bird 'suddenly' started happening.

I respect that you have stuck to your viewpoint from your early posts in August that our Leos were getting good coaching and that it was young personnel in a rebuilding year that was our major problem, knowing that your opinion on Lionbackers in this regard was the minority opinion. I've been in your position before and realize its not easy. I also try to be conscious of the notion of 'group think' and that has the potential to happen anywhere, including a football fan website.

At the same time maxlion, there is nothing wrong with re-evaluating your early viewpoint either and arriving at a different conclusion. It shows the ability to adapt - something our Leos have been very slow in doing.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should not have gotten rid of Stubler for Washington and said so at the time.

While we may disagree, welcome to Lionbackers. You've been a regular poster on this Board since joining. Different opinions are more than welcome. If we all saw everything the same way or said the exact things, it would be boring.

[KnowItAll]

The Lions are one of 5 teams currently rebuilding (along with Mtl, Sask, Wpg and Ott). The concensus on this board seems to be that our struggles are due to incompetence at the management level. I have a dissenting view.

In my opinion, the ingredients of a successful rebuild are:

1. Recognizing problems and needs early
2. Having strong management and leadership in key positions
3. Taking a long term approach, i.e sticking to the plan

Sask failed in #1. They expected to be contenders until they hit rock bottom. Wpg failed in #2, bringing ina succession of inexperienced mgmt and coaches and lacking leadership at qb and other key areas. Ott has been successful through addressing key weaknesses quickly, though long term success is yet to be seen. Not sure what Mtl is doing.

BC started their rebuild in earnest last year. Vets were replaced and replaced with young guys in a number of positions. This continued this year. In addition, experienced coaches were brought in to oversee the transition. There have been struggles as expected, but the team has stuck to the plan, and continue to compete. We have a lot of promising young talent together with veteran leadership.

A case in point is at the qb position. Wally has a reputation as a great identifier of talent. Tedford and Cortez have reps as great developers of talent. There is a veteran presence in Lulay and Beck to help protect an up and coming qb. While many here seem to think that Jennings success is in spite of poor coaching and mgmt, I would say the opposite, that coaching and mgmt deserve much of the credit for the success he has had. Recognizing needs, having in place strong mgmt and leadership, taking a long term approach.

My opinion on this is contrary to the consensus on here, but I call it as I see it. PR? No, just an honest opinion. This is textbook rebuilding. Wally has done it right, and we are in a great position moving forward. We have an exciting young team built for the future.

is it rebuild, or is it renovate? I think the later

[WestCoastJoe]

Then why is our defense playing so much better now that we have Roh outside, rather than inside, Minter inside with Brooks for a while now, and Westerman taking reps inside and now that we are blitzing more, using Bighill, Johnson, and Lee most often as blitzers and getting pressure on quarterbacks so often, we are now getting interceptions and playing defense much better.

But that has nothing to do with coaching?

Well, I don't understand that either. I could say that it takes time to figure out how best to integrate new players, and there is a learning curve for guys playing their first CFL games, but obviously the coaches were trying something that wasn't working. I'm not sold on Washington, and didn't agree with letting Stubler go at the time, but our defense has shown some improvement and has mostly played well enough to give us a chance to win most games. Could be better, but some of that is on the players too.

Rarely is there an all or nothing or a black and white reason for a team's performance or lack thereof.

But you almost have to be brain dead as a coach to insert a rookie defensive end/linebacker into the nose tackle position when he never played there at college, didn't practice there for most of training camp, and is 260 pounds. It took 11 games for us to use Roh at his natural position. I could go on about Westerman moving to defensive end but instead, will make the general point that the decisions we made for most of this season on our defensive line were a learning curve that was glacial in speed and never should have happened in the first place.

In terms of overall defensive coaching, to play a standard four man defensive line, with the full knowledge game after game, that we were not getting pressure on the quarterback, while sitting in a passive straight up zone defense, while offences shredded us game after game, both with the run and the pass, is more than a slow learning curve.

To use Bighill on most downs as a safety, from his linebacker position, was an experiment in craziness..and offences also knew we were doing that and exploited it game after game. There are many ways of preventing the deep ball, if you feel your defense is weak in that are, from personell to strategy and this concept was ill advised and proved to be ill advised and yet we continued it game after game.

We came into this season, on our defense, with players who had experience and successful experience in our lineup before 2015. Those players include Smith, Bazzie, Menard, Westerman, Eliminian, Hoffman, Bighill, Phillips, Yell, Lee, Parks, and Josh Johnson The only rookie players in our defensive lineup this year are Brooks and Roh.

Our defense is not playing better because our so called younger players are playing better, for the most part. Yes, Brooks is getting better but he was pretty good from the start of the season, while being double teamed. T.J. Lee, who played very well at corner last season had to adjust to inside halfback and there was a learning curve there. Rhabukunga and Fraser had previous experience at safety but not with out team. Ronnie Yell played great for us at corner last year.

This is not just a bunch of rookies on defense who needed to 'learn' this season. While I agree that some of our play on defense is on the players, it seems more than obvious to me, that much more is on Washington. Our defense, that was giving up the most yards rushing and passing in the CFL for most of the season have 'suddenly' started playing a hell of a lot better, as soon as we got some players back to their natural positions and started blitzing a few more times and we gave up on using Bighill as a safety (mostly due to Eliminian's injury). Experienced players that were playing lousy suddenly started to play well. Interceptions were as rare as a a dodo bird 'suddenly' started happening.

I respect that you have stuck to your viewpoint from your early posts in August that our Leos were getting good coaching and that it was young personnel in a rebuilding year that was our major problem, knowing that your opinion on Lionbackers in this regard was the minority opinion. I've been in your position before and realize its not easy. I also try to be conscious of the notion of 'group think' and that has the potential to happen anywhere, including a football fan website.

At the same time maxlion, there is nothing wrong with re-evaluating your early viewpoint either and arriving at a different conclusion. It shows the ability to adapt - something our Leos have been very slow in doing.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should not have gotten rid of Stubler for Washington and said so at the time.

While we may disagree, welcome to Lionbackers. You've been a regular poster on this Board since joining. Different opinions are more than welcome. If we all saw everything the same way or said the exact things, it would be boring.

Great post, Blitz.

Very fair, IMO.

And, Yes, welcome to maxlion. All of us regular posters have found ourselves in the minority at times. People with strong opinions don't need or seek the support of being in the majority, but it is definitely an easier road. I am encouraged, for example, when you and I see something in a similar fashion. Same with David and MLF, and quite a few others. And of course, no two people agree on everything.

One suspects group think with the Lions organization on some major decisions, with the draft as a possible example, or the style of defence. That is to be expected with some strong leaders. Some see it with systems. Normal. And it is not a problem if all coaches do it the way Hufnagel wants, or Austin wants, or Jones wants. But when the wins and losses are not good, seeing the same systems and justifications and philosophy year after year grates on some fans.

[Blitz]

One suspects group think with the Lions organization on some major decisions, with the draft as a possible example, or the style of defence.

WCJ

We agree on a ton of things WCJ.

I really liked the above comment you wrote. I believe it really describes what has happened in our Leos organization. You are hired if you think like Wally or you are expected to think like Wally and over time, instead of a collaborative process encouraging innovation, our coaches are in a group think process, often without realizing it.

Wally's thought processes seem to pervade every cell in this organization. And when someone has the courage to think differently eg: Tedfored states we are going to an H Back Tight End system and we never see it and are locked in again to the old Calgary spread offence. Washington says two years in a row he wants an aggressive defense and we are in passive zone with few alignments and few blitzes for most of this season again.

The optics are that we have been in group think for a while ...and group think is essentially that a group of individuals think like one and over time it does not allow any difference of opinion or anyone to be hired or come in and think differently.

That has essentially been said many times on this website in different ways but your comment concisely nails the essence of it.

[TheLionKing]

Buono in many ways reminds me of Stephen Harper, a control freak. We finally got rid of Harper, Buono is next.

[maxlion]

To use Bighill on most downs as a safety, from his linebacker position, was an experiment in craziness..and offences also knew we were doing that and exploited it game after game. There are many ways of preventing the deep ball, if you feel your defense is weak in that are, from personell to strategy and this concept was ill advised and proved to be ill advised and yet we continued it game after game.

We came into this season, on our defense, with players who had experience and successful experience in our lineup before 2015. Those players include Smith, Bazzie, Menard, Westerman, Eliminian, Hoffman, Bighill, Phillips, Yell, Lee, Parks, and Josh Johnson The only rookie players in our defensive lineup this year are Brooks and Roh.

Our defense is not playing better because our so called younger players are playing better, for the most part. Yes, Brooks is getting better but he was pretty good from the start of the season, while being double teamed. T.J. Lee, who played very well at corner last season had to adjust to inside halfback and there was a learning curve there. Rhabukunga and Fraser had previous experience at safety but not with out team. Ronnie Yell played great for us at corner last year.

This is not just a bunch of rookies on defense who needed to 'learn' this season. While I agree that some of our play on defense is on the players, it seems more than obvious to me, that much more is on Washington. Our defense, that was giving up the most yards rushing and passing in the CFL for most of the season have 'suddenly' started playing a hell of a lot better, as soon as we got some players back to their natural positions and started blitzing a few more times and we gave up on using Bighill as a safety (mostly due to Eliminian's injury). Experienced players that were playing lousy suddenly started to play well. Interceptions were as rare as a a dodo bird 'suddenly' started happening.

I respect that you have stuck to your viewpoint from your early posts in August that our Leos were getting good coaching and that it was young personnel in a rebuilding year that was our major problem, knowing that your opinion on Lionbackers in this regard was the minority opinion. I've been in your position before and realize its not easy. I also try to be conscious of the notion of 'group think' and that has the potential to happen anywhere, including a football fan website.

I appreciate the kind words, and always enjoy your detailed posts Blitz. Thanks!

I'm not sure about Bighill being used as a safety on most downs. I know that there were occasions where he was playing pretty deep, providing a different look for our D and providing some support for our DBs who were giving up a lot of big plays and getting burned on a regular basis. Anytime you make an adjustment to cover one area, you open yourself up somewhere else, but I didn't see Bighill's occasional deployment in the secondary as a reason for our lack of success.

And our defense is very young. Of our 12 starters for tonight's game, only 4 have been in the league longer than the past 2 seasons. One of them, Fraser, is a fringe CFLer. 3 are pure rookies (Clarke, Brooks, Roh), and Westerman and Hoffman-Ellis are first-time starters. Lots of youth in back up positions as well. There is definitely a learning curve at play here.

As I've said, I'm not sold on Washington as a DC, but this is a very different defensive personnel from what Stubler had to work with, and we've seen improvement. Over the last half of the season, our D has been adequate.

[B.C.FAN]

As I've said, I'm not sold on Washington as a DC, but this is a very different defensive personnel from what Stubler had to work with, and we've seen improvement. Over the last half of the season, our D has been adequate.

The improvement in the D has been noticeable and measurable. It coincides with the shuffling of personnel on the D line and in the secondary and the emergence of Hoffman-Ellis at LB. Through the first 10 games of the season, the B.C. defence gave up a league-worst 392 yards a game. In the past five games, they've given up an average of just under 330 yards a game. That would rank them in the top half of the league if they maintained that average through the season.

[B.C.FAN]

As I've said, I'm not sold on Washington as a DC, but this is a very different defensive personnel from what Stubler had to work with, and we've seen improvement. Over the last half of the season, our D has been adequate.

The improvement in the D has been noticeable and measurable. It coincides with the shuffling of personnel on the D line and in the secondary and the emergence of Hoffman-Ellis at LB. Through the first 10 games of the season, the B.C. defence gave up a league-worst 392 yards a game. In the past five games, they've given up an average of just under 330 yards a game. That would rank them in the top half of the league if they maintained that average through the season.

Coincidentally, the Lions just released similar stats showing the midseason turnaround in the defence:
First 8 games: Net 403 YPG allowed
Last 7 games; Net 333 YPG allowed

[dat]

To me the Lions have a lot better players than most of the other rebuilding teams. What I think is more of a problem is marketing by the Lions and possibly the CFL. When Bob Ackles came back to BC after his stint building Super Bowl teams for the Dallas Cowboys the fan base slowly increased because of his marketing and efforts building the team. Since he passed away the numbers are slowly slipping again. Much of this regime including Wally was here for part of Ackles tenure. What did they do differently then ? What did wally and Skulsky learn from Bob Ackles ? I think one problem is media exposure. Even when the Canucks are mediocre there is ceaseless coverage. Despite TSN's great TV ratings on CFL game days you hear little during the week between games. The sports networks back east push their coverage of the Toronto teams on the rest of the country. Yes , the Jays were good this year but for the first time in about 20 years. Dallas did not used to be a hockey market but the Dallas Stars implemented a grass roots program helping start kids hockey leagues and building more ice arenas in their city. Now they are one of the more successful US franchises for attendance. I know a lot of kids play high school football in BC. Maybe a push could be made to start some flag football or other leagues for kids. I'm not a marketing expert but I'm sure there are things that could be done better by the Lions and the CFL. Any thoughts ?

dat

[TheLionKing]

To me the Lions have a lot better players than most of the other rebuilding teams. What I think is more of a problem is marketing by the Lions and possibly the CFL. When Bob Ackles came back to BC after his stint building Super Bowl teams for the Dallas Cowboys the fan base slowly increased because of his marketing and efforts building the team. Since he passed away the numbers are slowly slipping again. Much of this regime including Wally was here for part of Ackles tenure. What did they do differently then ? What did wally and Skulsky learn from Bob Ackles ? I think one problem is media exposure. Even when the Canucks are mediocre there is ceaseless coverage. Despite TSN's great TV ratings on CFL game days you hear little during the week between games. The sports networks back east push their coverage of the Toronto teams on the rest of the country. Yes , the Jays were good this year but for the first time in about 20 years. Dallas did not used to be a hockey market but the Dallas Stars implemented a grass roots program helping start kids hockey leagues and building more ice arenas in their city. Now they are one of the more successful US franchises for attendance. I know a lot of kids play high school football in BC. Maybe a push could be made to start some flag football or other leagues for kids. I'm not a marketing expert but I'm sure there are things that could be done better by the Lions and the CFL. Any thoughts ?

dat

I agree, Since the passing of Bob Ackles, marketing has been abysmal in my opinion. Media coverage by CTV and Global seems to be an afterthought. On field product has been steadily declining over the years and this has been reflected in the attendance.