Breaking News... Printers cut!

[hwgill]

All I can say is this, if CP was the root fo the problem, than the Lions are going to win their next four games and they're all going to be blowouts.

If they're not, and it unfolds as I expect (we win tonight, and lose the rest), than CP was NOT the problem, and Buono/Chap ARE.

Those are two extreme positions. How about something in the middle: The success of the Lions for the rest of the season depends on playing disciplined football and minimizing turnovers and defensive breakdowns. No one individual or group of individuals is solely responsible for winning or losing.

The Lions have been playing well and winning consistently in the past six weeks apart from some mental lapses and undisciplined play. They just need to sharpen up in those areas.

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

[Hawkballer 14]

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

The players.

[ziggy]

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

The players.

[Toppy Vann]

All I can say is this, if CP was the root fo the problem, than the Lions are going to win their next four games and they're all going to be blowouts.

If they're not, and it unfolds as I expect (we win tonight, and lose the rest), than CP was NOT the problem, and Buono/Chap ARE.

Those are two extreme positions. How about something in the middle: The success of the Lions for the rest of the season depends on playing disciplined football and minimizing turnovers and defensive breakdowns. No one individual or group of individuals is solely responsible for winning or losing.

The Lions have been playing well and winning consistently in the past six weeks apart from some mental lapses and undisciplined play. They just need to sharpen up in those areas.

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

It is not the players to lay out the vision, mission and values that will go a long way to determine the culture of the football team. It is the coaches who set the tone and lay out the expectations and consistency is a key issue especially in a team with 50 players and a break down between O, D, ST and practice roster players. Players are expected to contribute but players are there to do their own jobs and not discipline others. The view that it is the players is wrong.

Having said that every coach and team will have inconsistencies and lapses when it comes to certain minor incidents. However on a scale of critical breakdowns where do you print CP's meltdown? At the highest end beyond the penalties that led to the loss? Beyond P. Jackson getting a broken jaw in the locker room? I suspect Wally is not well liked by players but respected and feared as you don't want to be his next scape goat. Jackson has played not great. Messam's hitting him in the jaw not in the heat of battle is criminal. It was condoned by Wally as boys will be boys. While look what it led to. More of that crap and they lost due to those penos.

Printers did his thing AFTER the game. While he was wrong it pales in significance in my view when you compare it to injuring a starting receiver in the locker room as you have anger management problems. This player is already on assault charges. It is less bad than the penalties that led to the loss which were players settling own grudges.

Wally is inconsistent and I suspect a few of the players on that team feel he did it again to a player unfairly much like when they dumped Joe Smith for an aging Charles Roberts who was the same as Logan. Remember no two back running attack. Then you get two of the same type and all of a sudden more than two thirds of the season they are foolishly trying to bring in new run packages when they had Smith and Logan and both were playing well = but Wally says no two backs. Weird stuff from wally.

[truth-hurts]

Ugh.....mountain<molehill

Its a forum. Blitz isn't quoting these players, he's merely speculating. Just like everyone does.

Okay fair enough , but then it should be okay to question those speculations just like everyone else too , and ask for proof when he states what any team member thinks . The way he presents it in his posts is as though it's known fact , when it's just his opinion .

Agree again pennw!

[hwgill]

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

The players.

Bullsh*t. It is the coach's job to make sure that doesn't happen.

[ziggy]

...and whose responsibility is it to make sure that those things don't happen?

The players.

Bullsh*t. It is the coach's job to make sure that doesn't happen.

So is it OK for the coach to cut a player who is undisciplined to ensure it doesn't happen? I believe in self discipline, these guys are after all pros. but if you're correct and its all on the coaches and the players are unable to control themselves what options do coaches have? Bench them? Cut them? Sounds like the pattern we saw with Casey?

[hwgill]

Bullsh*t. It is the coach's job to make sure that doesn't happen.

So is it OK for the coach to cut a player who is undisciplined to ensure it doesn't happen? I believe in self discipline, these guys are after all pros. but if you're correct and its all on the coaches and the players are unable to control themselves what options do coaches have? Bench them? Cut them? Sounds like the pattern we saw with Casey?

Nice try, the coach's job is to ensure that his players are taught to control themselves. I don't know about you, but most guys at that age do have a problem controlling themselves, they react without thinking way to often. It doesn't help that our society has lost the ability to respect those above us either. Buono's using fear as a way to control the players is not working, it's the method of a dictator. Control is best implemented through respect, and fear does not engender respect, abilities do, and Buono and Chap have proven that they no longer have the ability to engender respect.

They both need to go.

[ziggy]

Nice try, I'd say nailed it. I ask you once again what are the options a coach has? And by the way I know lots of people in their 20's and 30's who exhibit self control.

[hwgill]

Nice try, I'd say nailed it. I ask you once again what are the options a coach has? And by the way I know lots of people in their 20's and 30's who exhibit self control.

So what if you do, how many are professional athletes?

If I were a coach, I could tell you exactly what Buono need to do, as a parent, I know what I do with my teenage and older kids now to teach them self-control.

Making excuses for the coaching of this team...whatever, I find that I really don't give a rats a$$ any more. Not about Buono, Chap, or their apologists. Just keep making everything CP's fault (or whichever player people don't like at the time. Hell, I can't stand Sanchez and am quite happy he's out, though I wish it weren't through injury. Hated him when he played for the Als, and my opinion of him hasn't changed). It's an easy out, but it will only last for so long.

The coaching staff needs to change before the team's fortunes change.

[The_Pauser]

So what if you do, how many are professional athletes?

If I were a coach, I could tell you exactly what Buono need to do, as a parent, I know what I do with my teenage and older kids now to teach them self-control.

Making excuses for the coaching of this team...whatever, I find that I really don't give a rats a$$ any more. Not about Buono, Chap, or their apologists. Just keep making everything CP's fault (or whichever player people don't like at the time. Hell, I can't stand Sanchez and am quite happy he's out, though I wish it weren't through injury. Hated him when he played for the Als, and my opinion of him hasn't changed). It's an easy out, but it will only last for so long.

The coaching staff needs to change before the team's fortunes change.

I agree to an extent. The coaching staff needs to change because I believe in a top-down leadership approach. If the top of your organization is screwed up, then how can you expect the bottom to work as a cohesive unit? To borrow your parenting example...if you were to be a complete alcoholic, were never around for your children, neglected them and basically left them alone to do whatever they wanted, you definitely couldn't expect your children to grow up as responsible adults and make a good life for themselves. But because you've actually been a parent to them and raised them and taught them from right and wrong, they're going to learn from you and end up being better adults in the longrun. That's a lot like a football team.

I also think that there has to be another gutting of this teams player personnel though. There seems to be a split lockerroom that goes beyond what any coaching staff could fix. I'm not sure if this is a byproduct of a lack of leadership shown by the coaches, or if it's a mixture of coaching and having players with bad character (not pointing at anyone in particular), but I don't see how you can just bring in a new coaching staff to coach relatively the same team and expect better results.

I actually commend Jarious Jackson for the leadership he's shown. I know I've been very tough on him over the years, but I will give credit where credit is due and he's probably one of the top leaders this team has (probably the number 2 leader behind Geroy Simon?). Jarious basically has his job taken away from him by Casey Printers, doesn't see much action on the field, and remained buried on the depth chart even when Printers was being punished, and still makes a comment that supported him. I agree with him 100% that perhaps what Casey said in the dressing room is something that needed to be said. In hockey, one of the greatest leaders of alltime Mark Messier would do things like that in the dressing room and hold players accountable. I don't see what's wrong with that at all, as long as Casey was holding himself to the same standard he held everyone else, and as long as he wasn't ostracizing anyone.

Either way, I think we've seen already that Casey was not the problem. Same team sans Casey, even worse result last night.

[Lionheart]

Pauser, what makes you think the leadership at the top needs to change? You do realise that that position has just been filled by an extremely capable man who is yet to finish his first year.

[The_Pauser]

Pauser, what makes you think the leadership at the top needs to change? You do realise that that position has just been filled by an extremely capable man who is yet to finish his first year.

By leadership at the top, I'm talking about Wally Buono. Although I could probably take it a step further and go after David Braley for his absentee ownership. Buono hasn't been getting the job done, and I believe has become complacent because he hasn't felt the pressure to press for results. But if it weren't for Braley, we wouldn't have a BC Lions to be talking about so I won't go after him too hard.

I wouldn't expect Lulay to take on any sort of big leadership role right now either. That'd be absolutely ridiculous. He needs to just focus on playing the QB position, continue learning, continue to build chemistry with his receivers and running backs and hope not to get killed by his inept offensive line, and focus on his game. We SHOULD have other leaders on this team who can step up...

[ziggy]

Nice try, I'd say nailed it. I ask you once again what are the options a coach has? And by the way I know lots of people in their 20's and 30's who exhibit self control.

So what if you do, how many are professional athletes?

If I were a coach, I could tell you exactly what Buono need to do, as a parent, I know what I do with my teenage and older kids now to teach them self-control.

Making excuses for the coaching of this team...whatever, I find that I really don't give a rats a$$ any more. Not about Buono, Chap, or their apologists. Just keep making everything CP's fault (or whichever player people don't like at the time. Hell, I can't stand Sanchez and am quite happy he's out, though I wish it weren't through injury. Hated him when he played for the Als, and my opinion of him hasn't changed). It's an easy out, but it will only last for so long.

The coaching staff needs to change before the team's fortunes change.

Before I finally throw in the towel on this waste of bandwidth.I ask you again, what would you do if you were the coach, or a boss of a person who lacks self control and won't listen? If he is screwing up the team or worksite, what would you do as his boss? You vaguely suggest you have a method for dealing with your teenage children but as per normal don't elaborate. What is your secret that the professional coaches could use to deal with professional athletes that you employ with your teenage children? Oh and I think its insulting to suggest pro athletes have no self control, ot their parents lacked your knowledge and never instilled it in them.

[Toppy Vann]

I think the answer to the question is to do what Wally has done in the past and that is set out clear expectations that include the edict that there are no circumstances in which you as a player are entitled to take action against an opponent no matter what was done to you. Let the refs take care of that. We will not tolerate undisciplined penalties. If it occurs as it did on the same day Printers post game ripped into O'Neal Wilson the worst thing to do is to say you cut CP for that and ignore the penalties that led to the game being lost. It appears these players who took penos escaped. Wally blundered in my view by not sending a message that fighting in the locker room would not be tolerated same as if someone had started smoking pot in there. Nip that in the bud! Wally had his star receiver with a broken jaw and while he didn't miss a game due to that he sure was not that visible. I doubt PJ wanted to take any hits in his beaten up condition.

Wally sends messages that are not always consistent with his cuts and in the recent years since his heart surgery some of the decision he has made have been quite odd as well as hearing voices and taking the advice of a daughter etc. Some players know they are not going to end up cut but with Wally if he sees a surplus of Import whatevers out there he'll cut a guy and remind the team that it can happen to them and I suspect they all know it. With Wally it is not about you be loyal and do your job and play well and we'll be loyal to you. SMS and bonuses get in the way of some of that. The rest is Wally's management style.

CP was a known commodity to Wally when he came back. None of what he did after that game was brand new... wow...we never knew he could be like that. What blows me away is that he was out there to win the game and Wally says he and coaches had already lost confidence in him. Yikes... even in the pros the coach has to show confidence in his QB or he should not be playing. This was in OT!!! No confidence yet as Climie says if Lulay can write and hold a clip board then he can toss a football.

Wally no longer has the coaching staff he used to have as noted on other boards. The loss of Dave Ritchie as a DC was huge.

The Ricky Ray running shows that Mike Benevides is not an astute enough coach to adjust in a game. He is not at field level I dont think and I posted this before. How can he make adjustments if he is not at field level and being advised by spotters. He should have watched how Ritchie worked the field as DC with two injured guys sending in signals for him and him showing real game day leadership in the midst of his players.