For anyone who still thinks the combine isn't important

[Area51]

If there's anyone still clining to the misguided belief that the combine results don't give a pretty accurate indication of a players chances at being a pro - - don't take my word for it.....here's a quote from Ken Miller:

"It depends on the position but say if an offensive lineman only does three or four reps on the bench press, unless there is some declared reason for that it would mean they haven't been in a weight room," Miller said. "If you're a lineman and you don't have strength then you're probably not going to be able to play that position."

http://www.bclions.com/article/e-camp-t ... -prospects

[Hawkballer 14]

The players have a substantial body of work (ie: game film) which precedes their combine invite.

The combine is over-rated.

[Rids]

Hawkballer> you should go to E-Camp next year. There's an area for spectators to watch on the second morning to see the timed events and the one on ones. It would change your opinion of it I can guarantee it. It's not the 70s and you have a training camp plus 4 exhibition games to get into game shape, the E-Camp shows in a hurry who's been working harder during their draft year off season.

[CatsEyes]

Hawkballer> you should go to E-Camp next year. There's an area for spectators to watch on the second morning to see the timed events and the one on ones. It would change your opinion of it I can guarantee it. It's not the 70s and you have a training camp plus 4 exhibition games to get into game shape, the E-Camp shows in a hurry who's been working harder during their draft year off season.

Oh I'm sure his daddy's taught him ALLL about E-Camps and combines! And quite fitting that a combine quote would come from Ken Miller (sorry, I had to!)

[btemp]

Yes, if an O-lineman does 3 or 4 bench reps than yes, the Combine will matter for him. That's like saying, if the player punches out a coach during the interview process, it will affect his draft status.

Otherwise, it makes up about 10% of the evaulation process. Its about indicators, what to look for when you watch film. For example, a DB run's a 4.78 - you look at the game tape to see if he's really that slow in games.

[Hambone]

Try telling somebody from Saskatchewan that a combine isn't important.

True there is some game film available on players although at the CIS level that could be all over the map in terms of quality and quantity. I'd have a hard time believing all CIS programs, given varying levels of athletic budgets and funding, would be able to offer the same level of video on their athletes. An NCAA game could have dozens of cameras available to tape it for either television purposes, NFL scouting or for the teams' game to game needs. An untelevised CIS game (most of them) might have one or two cameras taping what the coaches want taped. Whatever is available no team worth their salt would rely totally on that to make draft day decisions. The Lions for instance receive hundreds of hours of video on hundreds of prospects (NI and import) every year. Despite the video info they receive their policy is to never sign a player without working them out first although they did make an exception with one Cam Wake after his agent directed him to the wrong college for the free-agent tryout camp.

The combine isn't intended to be a CFL team's primary scouting tool but it is a key part of information gathering on all prospects. Any organization going into the combine relying heavily on its results is destined for failure as is any organization relying on video as their primary scouting tool. Video may tell a scout the prospect bears a further look, but that's about it. You can safely assume should a player or agent send video in it will only show the good and not the warts on the player. To me video is merely part of the prospect's resume with the combine being the equivalent of the pre-screening or job interview. It allows teams to measure the athleticism of the prospects in a controlled environment where everybody is being tested on the same drills on the same surface and in the same conditions. At the top of a draft class there usually are the blue-chippers who are clearly heads and shoulders ahead of the rest. After that though there is usually an incredibly fine line between one prospect at a given position and the next. Combine results can help identify differences between what would appear on the surface to be two nearly identical players. The combine also provides an opportunity to talk face-to-face to players of interest to get to know them a bit better. What's between the ears is a huge factor in identifying good prospects and it can't be found on any video tape. For the budget-challenged CFL it is definitely far more cost effective to bring all the prospects, team GMs, coaches and scouts into the same place at the same time versus the alternative of flying everybody all over the country to achieve the same objective. All in all the combine is merely part of the scouting process, and a very valuable part. Some players may see their stock rise some or fall some. Mostly though I think it helps organizations supplement or validate what they already think they may know about prospects.

[Hawkballer 14]

Oh I'm sure his daddy's taught him ALLL about E-Camps and combines!

Do you always jump to conclusions like that?

[joe kapp22]

The Combine does allow formely marginal players to showcase what they bring to the table athletically, for example Steven Turner was a seldmonly used Wr in college, at the Combine he established a record in the 40 yd dash.

By .8 tenths of a second over Jamall Lee, 4.31 is blazingly fast.

Previously he had 17 receptions for 200yds or so.

[Tighthead]

With the NFL combine, the raw numbers aren't as critical as they used to be, but of course they are still a tool. The secondary benefit about the combine is that it give them a chance to watch how the players conduct themselves, and to interview them.

Also, as mentioned above, if a guy is out of shape or doesn't put forth a good effort, that can be a red flag. With the hypothetical OL who can't do more than 3 or 4 reps a team will see two problems - a lack of strength, and a lack of committment.

[Hambone]

With the NFL combine, the raw numbers aren't as critical as they used to be, but of course they are still a tool. The secondary benefit about the combine is that it give them a chance to watch how the players conduct themselves, and to interview them.

Also, as mentioned above, if a guy is out of shape or doesn't put forth a good effort, that can be a red flag. With the hypothetical OL who can't do more than 3 or 4 reps a team will see two problems - a lack of strength, and a lack of committment.

I think you've nailed it on a lot of things there. In so many small ways the e-camp or combine can help a team identify whether or not a prospect has all of the intangibles it takes to compete at the pro level. Often players come in unable to put in their top effort due to recovering from injuries from the season but that will be known by those in attendance and not held against the prospect. But like you say if the player comes in out of shape that would something duly noted and would cause a prospect's stock to drop. If you're not able to show up at e-camp prepared and ready to put in your best effort then you aren't likely ready to put in the commitment necessary to be a pro.

[Shi Zi Mi]

IMHO, the interview has become an integral part of E-camp.......game film and testing don't show the maturity of an individual.

In particular, is the individual mature enough to be on his own and away from home should a team decide to draft him.

Matt Morencie is yet another case of a wasted draft pick for the Lions, because he wanted to play close to home and chose to sign with Hamilton over the Lions......maybe the Lions will be a little more cautious in the future and stash these guys on the IR instead of letting them play their final year in the CIS and then get double crossed.

[B.C.FAN]

"It depends on the position but say if an offensive lineman only does three or four reps on the bench press, unless there is some declared reason for that it would mean they haven't been in a weight room," Miller said. "If you're a lineman and you don't have strength then you're probably not going to be able to play that position."

I agree with Miller in principle but he didn't have to exaggerate to make his point. A lineman who can do only three or four reps on the bench press doesn't get invited to E-camp. The fewest number of reps by an O-line participant at the past four E-camps is 12.

The Lions place a lot of weight (no pun intended) on the interview process. They look for character guys who are mature enough to play at the professional level. Their approach to selecting and developing players hasn't paid off well in recent years. I hope they can get a few good prospects this year that they can hang on to and develop.

[WestCoastJoe]

It's interesting about the interview aspect. I have mixed feelings about it.

In the working and business world, there are people who knock 'em dead in an interview. That does not mean they would be a good employee: loyal, honest, team player, et cetera. So IMO the interview has its limitations.

On the other hand, it is beneficial to meet a prospective new employee, obviously. Get to know the person. Make some judgments.

But how they play on the field is more important. And much of that is on tape. Also some poor interviewees can be sensational football players. And some "bad attitude" people can also be sensational football players. I think it is also possible to have too many good interview types (like a team of choir boys, too nice). IMO you need some players with some edge, if you want to challenge for a championship.

The business of hiring employees is not cut and dried like mathematics as long as personalities are involved.

And I do not say interviews are a waste of time. But beware the interview expert who is not so good at being a player. What you are getting is an interview expert.

And I think the combine is an excellent event for both players and teams.

[TheLionKing]

Combines are not the be all and end all. Just another tool for the coaches to assess players. The more information a team has, the better the draft pick..........hopefully

[OV - 54:40]

Combines are not the be all and end all. Just another tool for the coaches to assess players. The more information a team has, the better the draft pick..........hopefully

Agreed

Combines and football measureables can be way over-rated by some football scouts IMO; just as rating college ball on field play or stats could possibly be over-rated or mis-interpreted by some scouts in judging footbal talent for the next level. The really smart scouts probably look closely and wisely at all pertinent and available football information - as you are suggesting. The Combine is a useful tool.