Could Halifax Support a CFL Franchise?

[WestCoastJoe]

Could Halifax Support a CFL Franchise?

I would say yes.

The population of Halifax is 373,000. Truro and New Glasgow are close by. The population of Nova Scotia is 914,000.

Regina, which, as we know, supports its team as well or better than any other CFL franchise, has a population of 195,000. The population of Saskatchewan is 969,000.

Maritimers have a lot of pride and tradition. They have great college sports traditions at Dalhousie, Saint Mary's, Xavier, and Acadia.

Halifax would draw fans from Truro, New Glasgow, and some even from Moncton and Cape Breton for a good football game-party-drunk.

In 1984 a CFL franchise was granted to Halifax and was set to compete as the Halifax Schooners. Financing troubles related to operations and the stadium ended that plan.

The Argonauts and Tiger-Cats played to a 16-16 tie in Halifax in 2005. It drew 11,000 to Huskies Stadium (full house).

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2005/06/ ... 50611.html

The new Ottawa franchise will have to settle in, I would guess, before looking at another franchise. 8 teams in the CFL works. 9 is better. Eventually 10 would be very nice.

Halifax would face the same issues as Ottawa: solid ownership and a suitable stadium. Personally, I would love to see a franchise in Halifax. Then the CFL would really be Coast to Coast.

[Leo_on_Rideau]

A quick search of the Canadian Trade-Marks Database reveals that the Atlantic Schooners' name and logo, originally registered in 1984 by the team, is still maintained (for use on T-shirts, hats and mugs) -- by Labatt! Another beer company (which Labatt must have bought) proposed their use in 1985 after, it seems, the team abandoned their mark, but never followed through... interesting that Labatt has kept it registered.

[TheLionKing]

I guess the big question is do they have an adequate stadium to play in.

[QB Club 63]

I'd love to have 10 teams in the good ol' CFL, but can't you just hear the comments you'd get due to that 4-hour time difference, coast-to-coast? Say our Lions were scheduled to play a Sunday afternoon game that started at 2PM Halifax time. That would mean they'd be kicking off at 10AM Vancouver time, which might prompt a few choice words from the more outspoken players.

Quebec City would be an intriguing candidate for CFL expansion. The passion of a Montreal vs Quebec rivalry might far outstrip that of any "Battle of Alberta" we have ever seen.

I miss having a team in Ottawa, and I will welcome them back as long as there's a "no Glieberman" clause in the contract. Hmm, can they return as the Rough Riders? Or does Horn Chen still own the rights? I suppose Renegades is out for much the same reason. How about the Ottawa Temps? It's bilingual (sort of), and it might be truly representative of their status if things don't go well. :lol:

Picture this: It's 2103 and the BC Lions, the City of Vancouver and BC Place Stadium, celebrating its 30th anniversary, host the 101st Grey Cup Game featuring the Eastern Division Champions Halifax Machine playing the Ottawa Temps (Western Division Champs on the cross-over). The star of the game is former Lions quarterback Buck Pierce who was obtained by Ottawa in the 2010 expansion draft. Ottawa's Josh Boden, also picked up in the draft, is named the game's Outstanding Canadian for his 3-touchdown performance. Sean Millington is voted runner-up for his gutsy return to the Halifax lineup after coming out of retirement for the seventh time.

[ziggy]

The Schooner name was likely a taken from the Olands Brewery days,which I believe Labatts bought out. Schooner was a popular beer out east for many years,more so maybe than Keiths or Moosehead?

Having lived in Halifax and visited it inumerable times, I would love to see it get a franchise but doubt it will ever happen. They have no stadium and no deep pocketed private investors willing to put up the money. Would be great for the Irving family to get involved, but if they did the team would likely end up in New Brunswick and the Federal Gov't would somehow end up paying for it. Local Gov't could build the stadium but that would likely become the usual downhome nightmare, not to mention a pretty unpopular use of hard to come by tax dollars.

I also seriously doubt they have the fan base. I attended numerous games at SMU and was always surprised by how little interest there was in high calibre ball at bargain prices.

[MacNews]

I've been listening to the Quebec City vs. Halifax debate for 4+ years now..it will be interesting to see which city, if any, prevails.

[Leo_on_Rideau]

The Schooner name was likely a taken from the Olands Brewery days,which I believe Labatts bought out.

Good call, that's precisely who registered it. I'm not familiar with them, but it's interesting nonetheless that they seem to have scooped up the I{ rights after the team let them slide. What were they planning on marketing, exactly? :lol:

Irving may be a NB institution, but I imagine they have enough of a grip on economics that they would put a Maritime franchise in Halifax rather than in NB...!

As for Quebec City, I remain skeptical. As long as the Habs are good (and forget the Nordique-Hab rivalry, people cheer for Montreal across the province and always have in some degree), I don't see interest in pro football. The interest in the CFL in Quebec -- the province, not the city -- arose because the Canadiens went through a prolonged stretch of mediocrity while the Alouettes were really good, and became the interim source of Quebec's pride politics-by-proxy against Canada. I could see Laval University getting continuous support for this reason, but the CFL, with its lack of roots in the area, the "Canadian" in the title (yes, crap like this matters to the separatist movement) and all these anglophone players... I don't see it.

[sj-roc]

I guess the big question is do they have an adequate stadium to play in.

I think they would have to host the Commonwealth Games and get the gov't to pay for one; I don't see enough private money out there for it. They tried that route for 2014, but withdrew their bid about a year ago, and Toronto already has the Canadian bid for 2018.

[Hambone]

The Maritimes make for an interesting study with an overall estimated population of 1.825 million between Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PEI. NS with 935K and Halifax as the largest centre would make sense as a location for a team while a case could be made for Moncton as being the most central to take advantage of the full regional market. I guess the big question out there is whether people are as willing to travel for something like a football game as the stubblejumpers in Saskatchewan. I find people in older established regions or urban areas where communities are close together are much more reluctant to hop in the car for a roadtrip than folks in rural or historically younger areas where the next decent sized community might be an hour away. While my roots go back to New Brunswick I've never been there to get a sense of how much people travel in the region. Do people hop in their car in Moncton to head off to Halifax or Saint John for the weekend or vice versa? Or is that the sort of trip that is done maybe once a year and only if there's a damned good reason?

Glen Suitor had an interesting take on the Maritimes. Everybody knows the Irving family pretty much owns everything in New Brunswick. I'm sure in Nova Scotia there are also some very deep pockets in the pants of businessmen with generations of history there. Suitor's point was that the business of investing in a CFL team is very much different in 2008 that it was only 5 short years ago. You have some highly respected owners well established in the Canadian business community now as opposed to some of the fly-by-night variety of the past. Long gone are Chen, Glieberman, Pezim, Skalbania, Feterik, McNall, Rykman and Schwarz. In are Braley, Hellard, Forzani, Cynamon, Sokoloski, Young, the now token American Wetenhall. Now this very impressive Ottawa group as well as possibly David Asper in Winnipeg could be joining the fraternity. Tack on the SMS finally putting an onus on fiscal responsibility and you have both the business model and group of solid business partners that are essential for anyone to consider taking an ownership stake in a 10th team. Five or ten years ago anyone out East would have to think joining the CFL would be bordering on insane, but now I don't think that would be the case.

Halifax or Quebec? Until some city east of Montreal comes up with a 25000+ seat stadium there will be no 10th team. Everybody seems to think that is unlikely to happen without a goverment funding it under the auspices of something like a Commonwealth Games. I don't that is necessarily true any more. Most of the new stadiums and arenas coming on stream in the US in the past half dozen years have seen significant funding from the private sector. I think we're also seeing quite a few new facilities being much more than a stand-alone stadium or arena. They often include other developments that generate synergies that make it all work. I believe the proposal Asper has been floating in Winnipeg includes him paying 1/3 of the proposed $120 million to construct the stadium and spend $25 million to develop commercial property surrounding the new stadium. The new conditional Ottawa franchise will rely on the prospective owners who are land developers getting involved with developing the Lansdowne Park lands. The combination of teams, facilities and development make the business model work for the new group. Conceivably there could be a similar group of deep pocketed Maritime businessmen who can see opportunity in owning a CFL team if it can be tied in with land development and stadium construction.

As Bob Dylan used to sing "For the times they are a-changin". There are a whole bunch of things that have changed for the positive in recent years in the business that is the CFL. I think that 10th team is going to happen and maybe a lot sooner than we think.

[WestCoastJoe]

The Maritimes make for an interesting study with an overall estimated population of 1.825 million between Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PEI. NS with 935K and Halifax as the largest centre would make sense as a location for a team while a case could be made for Moncton as being the most central to take advantage of the full regional market.

As Bob Dylan used to sing "For the times they are a-changin". There are a whole bunch of things that have changed for the positive in recent years in the business that is the CFL. I think that 10th team is going to happen and maybe a lot sooner than we think.

Excellent points throughout your post, Hambone.

I was born in Vancouver, and have lived here most of my life. But I attended university in Nova Scotia. Maritime college football, basketball and hockey were pretty big stuff. Great rivalries. Awesome field trips to Halifax for some football games. Parties throughout entire hotels. The potential is there, I think, in terms of fans having fun with it.

The Maritimes are not like Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal. It's more of a small town atmosphere. There is not as much competition for the entertainment dollar. I would think, in Big Picture terms, that Halifax might be able support a CFL team the way Regina does. Each game being a big local event, with many fans driving in from other locations.

As with Ottawa, the key is to get solid ownership. I am sure Nova Scotia has some business people with deep pockets. There are so many graduates out there from the universities of Nova Scotia. Many of them must have hit it big.

With the right owner (or group), I think the stadium situation can be solved. Perhaps tie it in with a university (St. Mary's). As you mentioned, it could be part of a larger multi-use development.

Nova Scotia itself is not large geographically. Over a million people within 3 hours driving distance of Halifax.

As you say, a 10-team CFL will happen sometime.

The CFL is a growth industry at present. Great owners. Great product. Great traditions. Loyal fan bases. Improving balance sheets.

But, more importantly, with its cultural importance in Canada, deep-pocketed, serious business people (like Braley, et al) are choosing to support the CFL for reasons not limited just to profits. It is also giving back to, supporting, and being part of the community. And many other motivations that good sports owners have.

I would think, for a variety of reasons, Halifax is a better prospect than Quebec City.
...................

I just read Jim Mullin's update on the interview with Mark Cohon and David Braley.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14978

With Braley seeing Windsor and Moncton as having more potential at this time than Halifax or Quebec City, that carries a lot of weight in how things may develop.

[swervyn mervyn]

as far as whether a new stadium is viable or not for football, there r many other events that could be held to help justify the expense. one would think with that many people within reach that something could be worked out. i would watch the 'maritime schooners'

[Lionut]

I have always said that Moncton is the dark horse in terms of an Atlantic candidate. Moncton is sort of the unofficial hub of the Maritimes -- no matter where you are driving, you have to go through Moncton. There is also a lot of civic pride and "can do" community spirit there. If any city there could pull off the whole, "regional team" concept, it would be Moncton.

Having said that, this whole thing is a moot discussion unless and until a big corporate investor like Irving decides they want to enter the fray. Only their presence as an owner could convince the city or province to pony up for a stadium, which is the other stumbling block in every last city mentioned for a possible 10th franchise. (Having Windsor play across the river in Detroit is a non-starter due to the hassles involved in crossing the border, plus the fact that no one on the American side will pay to watch the CFL. As a result, Windsor would also need a stadium.)

If the Ottawa re-birth goes well, then the Commissioner can take that experience and market it to other potential owners. Until then, I would expect other potential CFL investors to be in a, "wait and see" mode.

[WestCoastJoe]

I have always said that Moncton is the dark horse in terms of an Atlantic candidate. Moncton is sort of the unofficial hub of the Maritimes -- no matter where you are driving, you have to go through Moncton. There is also a lot of civic pride and "can do" community spirit there. If any city there could pull off the whole, "regional team" concept, it would be Moncton.

I expect the potential, deep-pocketed owners are out there. Until recently, however, the CFL did not have any appeal for them, either for business reasons, or for community involvement reasons (legacy), or just for prestige. Those things are now starting to happen for the CFL franchises.

Our cities have grown in size. It was not long ago that only Toronto and Montreal had over 1,000,000 inhabitants. Many business people have accumulated great wealth. These developments have made CFL franchises more viable. And, most importantly, the high quality of the product on the field is there.

[ziggy]

I'm not sure how much emphasis can be put just on population base. Given that Regina has generally had no problem with fan support, while Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal have at various times had their struggles, I would suggest it is a minor part of the equation. Obviously you need a minimum fan base but things don't seem to necessarily increase in proportion to the population. In fact sometimes I think as cities grow larger they tend to loose contact with the CFL. Toronto's seemingly developing love affair with the NFL is a prime example.

I can see a stadium being erected in the Maritimes if the provinces get together and all pitch in, or the Sobey's or Irving interests get involved. I don't see either scenario happening in the short term given provincial politics and reluctance, or perhaps conservative investment practises of locals with deep pockets.

As for getting a stadium built by the Federal or Provincial Gov't for the Commonwealth games, I would be extremely surprised. I think given that when Victoria hosted the Commonwealth games all that happened was the addition of temporary bleachers to UVIC's stadium, the precedent has been set. You might see some upgrades to SMU, but likely not much else.

[Lionut]

What ultimately killed the Halifax Commonwealth Games bid was spiralling infrastructure costs. The initial bid budget turned out to be wildly optimistic, and once the provincial government realized what the real costs were going to be, they got cold feet. Had the bid actually gone forward, you can bet you would have seen a low budget type of solution for the Halifax stadium, much like Victoria in 1994.

Even a basic stadium is expensive - IIRC, BMO Field in Toronto cost over $60 million, and that didn't buy them much. This is why the Ottawa CFL bid will almost certainly involve the group currently awarded the conditional franchise doing a development deal with the city for the surrounding land in exchange for looking after stadium renovations and upkeep. It will probably take a creative public/private partnership like that to get a stadium built elsewhere.