Lions' ship in rocky waters. Can this season be salvaged?

[WestCoastJoe]

If we beat Edmonton, does that change anything in the state of the team?

Some symptoms ...

brain farts

fumbles

penalties

drops

poor tackling

poor offence to start the second half (adjustments away from what was working?)

out of gas D Line (not enough depth)

too many personnel changes since the start of the year

confidence low, thinking too much, robotic play

fix one leak, up pops another

shooting themselves in the feet

know what to do, just can't do it
..............

Some judgments and decisions ...

Where are we with our running game? Jamal Robertson? Tim Brown? Andrew Harris? And what was the name of that other guy? Oh yeah, Jamal Lee, a player we traded up to draft.

We used to develop our own guys ... Now instead, let's pick up discards from other teams.

Trading for a finished Charles Roberts. Good move or just a way to get rid of Joe Smith, who had fallen out of favour with the coach?

O Line schmozzle to start last year. Interior of the O Line still seeming weak this year.

Bringing back Casey as saviour part way through 2009.

Throwing Casey under the bus part way through 2010.

Starting the year with 4 receivers none of whom had ever caught a pass in the CFL.

The Messam mess. Mistake bringing him in? Mistakes in handling him? Mistake in shipping him out?

Go to a 3-4 as primary defence. Oooops that didn't work too well. Better go back to the 4-3.

Change the offence over the winter. But neglect to include the running game.

Bring in the hand signals for sending in the plays. Help the focus of the quarterback or damage it?

Pressuring players to suit up when injured, as with Tim Brown. Standard procedure or misjudgment?

Having a Players' Council with strong influence on coaching matters and personnel matters. Good thing or bad?
..............

Can it be fixed, this season? ...

It is a pretty sad show. Sad for Buono. Sad for his OC and DC. Sad for fans. Sad for players.

Coaching and managing a pro football team requires so many good judgments and good decisions. And we have been shaky in so many of those judgments and decisions.

We got comfortable and changed nothing. Then the bar was raised in the league with the arrival of Austin, Hufnagel and Trestman. This year we got scared and changed too much.

Now it is a mess.

Can it be fixed? Can we salvage the season, as we sort of did last year, giving the coaching staff a Mulligan? IMO This can happen only if the natural athletic instincts of the players take over. If they figure out how to make it work. [Casey did it at the end of 2009. Travis did it at the end of 2010] But that gets a little tougher for the players with each new year of ineptitude.

[The_Pauser]

If we beat Edmonton, does that change anything in the state of the team?

Some symptoms ...

brain farts

fumbles

penalties

drops

poor tackling

poor offence to start the second half (adjustments away from what was working?)

out of gas D Line (not enough depth)

too many personnel changes since the start of the year

confidence low, thinking too much, robotic play

fix one leak, up pops another

shooting themselves in the feet

know what to do, just can't do it
..............

It isn't as if the players have been a constant here. Our roster has turned over probably close to 75% from the end of 2008 (our last successful regular season, although still only 3rd in the west) to today. So why are these same mistakes still happening with new personnel? One would think if it's a talent issue that this problem would be solved by bringing in new talent. Another classic response is that it's an execution issue. Well how come we're coming up with plays that no one can execute?

Some judgments and decisions ...

Where are we with our running game? Jamal Robertson? Tim Brown? Andrew Harris? And what was the name of that other guy? Oh yeah, Jamal Lee, a player we traded up to draft.

We used to develop our own guys ... Now instead, let's pick up discards from other teams.

Trading for a finished Charles Roberts. Good move or just a way to get rid of Joe Smith, who had fallen out of favour with the coach?

O Line schmozzle to start last year. Interior of the O Line still seeming weak this year.

Bringing back Casey as saviour part way through 2009.

Throwing Casey under the bus part way through 2010.

Starting the year with 4 receivers none of whom had ever caught a pass in the CFL.

The Messam mess. Mistake bringing him in? Mistakes in handling him? Mistake in shipping him out?

Go to a 3-4 as primary defence. Oooops that didn't work too well. Better go back to the 4-3.

Change the offence over the winter. But neglect to include the running game.

Bring in the hand signals for sending in the plays. Help the focus of the quarterback or damage it?

Pressuring players to suit up when injured, as with Tim Brown. Standard procedure or misjudgment?

Having a Players' Council with strong influence on coaching matters and personnel matters. Good thing or bad?
..............

I think Robertson is past his best before date. He can be an average feature back at best, but I think this team needs slightly better than average given that we have an inexperienced QB at the helm. A strong running game will take a lot of pressure off of Lulay. I hear this Jamal Lee kid was good enough to get a tryout in the NFL. He has good size, great speed, and dominated CIS. Why don't we use him?

I don't mind picking up some discards from other teams. Charles Roberts was a trade that I'm content with because we got rid of Joe Smith and got something for him. Roberts and Logan in the backfield could have been interesting if our OC's knew what to do with them. I shutter to think what would have happened if Chap were the OC at that time. But there's nothing wrong with picking up discards if they're the right ones. Afterall, Hamilton took our discards (Jamal Johnson and Markeith Knowlton) and look what happened

Anyone could have predicted our O-line problems from a mile away last year. It was absolute crap. Anyone who knows football knows that you need to win the games in the trenches, you need a great O-line and a great D-line. The O-line sets up our offense...without it we don't have an offense. Can't run the ball because they won't open up any holes, can't pass because they don't give enough time for our QB to make his reads. It was a recipe for disaster.

Casey Printers was never the problem. Could he have been a saviour? Well with the way he played in 2009 I don't see why he couldn't have been part of the reason for future success, but I also don't think any one player could have saved that team. 2010 he was thrown under the bus unfairly. He played well with what he had. Just look at what Lulay has done this year with a better offensive line...he's put up similar numbers to what Casey did last year with no offensive line, and one knee. Had Casey just gone on the shelf and gotten his knee surgery after being injured then people aren't complaining about how the rest of last year played out IMO. Who knows where we would be and who would be our QB today.

Starting the year with 4 inexperienced receivers is acceptable if we're in a pure rebuilding year. But when our goal is to host the Grey Cup in our own building, that's just unacceptable.

The Messam mess, well, it is what it is.

The issues on offense and defense really show how poor and misguided our OC and DC are. They just don't have it. They are both in way over their heads and clearly aren't creative enough to come up with a workable, fresh playbook. Let's sprinke some cinnamon on that vanilla.

Our coaches have traditionally pressured players to play despite injury. Just look at Casey Printers as an example. How about Buck Pierce or throwing Jarious Jackson in there last year despite him not being 100%. On top of poor scheming, we're putting guys in there who aren't even close to 100%. All in all, we are setting up our players to fail.

The players council is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's acceptable to have team captains, but when they start influencing coaching decisions that's where it becomes ineffective and downright dumb. Players play, coaches coach.

Can it be fixed, this season? ...

It is a pretty sad show. Sad for Buono. Sad for his OC and DC. Sad for fans. Sad for players.

Coaching and managing a pro football team requires so many good judgments and good decisions. And we have been shaky in so many of those judgments and decisions.

We got comfortable and changed nothing. Then the bar was raised in the league with the arrival of Austin, Hufnagel and Trestman. This year we got scared and changed too much.

Now it is a mess.

Can it be fixed? Can we salvage the season, as we sort of did last year, giving the coaching staff a Mulligan? IMO This can happen only if the natural athletic instincts of the players take over. If they figure out how to make it work. [Casey did it at the end of 2009. Travis did it at the end of 2010] But that gets a little tougher for the players with each new year of ineptitude.

I think it's possible based on past seasons, but I think another question posed to fans is: do you want this season to be salvaged? We are 1-6 now. Assuming we go 7-4 the rest of the way that's yet another 8-10 season. The end of the season will once again be seen as a success and we'll likely be stuck with the same crap we've been spoon fed the past three years yet again.

[Sir Purrcival]

Anything is possible I suppose Remember the year we were 3-9 and rattled off 6 straight to get to .500 (not sure exactly what year that was).

But salvaging usually refers to recovering whatever you can after the disaster rather than fixing the problem before it occurs. After 3 plus years of failing to fix some obvious problems (vanilla playbook, Oline issues, poor game time coaching decisions), it is pretty clear that the present coaching staff seem unable to do this. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Wally Buono and what he has done for this team but 1 GC in 9 years in an 8 team league when you had the ingredients for 2 or 3 in that time does not seem like success. Waiting for the annual head scratcher decision like letting Robert Jordan run kicks returns for 4 games before finally, reluctantly going to Yonus Davis. Sticking with some players beyond all reason while letting other players hardly see the field unless absolutely forced to and then being surprised when they were far better than the "WB Approved" choice, more often than not for other teams because their patience for getting a chance eventually ran out. An ongoing series of accommodations to players which has seen us loose draft picks to other teams, the return of Jacques Chapdelaine while at the same time, a complete opposite approach with others (Joe Smith, Jerome Messam, sent packing because of the coaches displeasure). And perhaps the most disturbing of all, the on field coaching choices (the short punts in the Grey Cup, leaving the QB who got you there on the bench for the entire game, giving up possession when you should be going for it, going for it when you should be kicking). Is it salvageable? Probably. Is it fixable by this current cast of coaches? I am very doubtful. They have had their chances and have reworked everything but one....the coaching which has always been given a pass.

[WestCoastJoe]

Just watched some sports news on TV.

There were 2 Players' Council members, Angus Reid and Geroy Simon, stoutly defending their coaches. Along with whatever privileges one gets as Council member, there are no doubt responsibilities. Defend the status quo.

"We, as players, have to execute better." "We have good game plans from the coaches." Et cetera ...

8 and 10. 8 and 10. 1 and 6. Same old. Same old.

No doubt there are a number of players who would not spout the party line, but they would be getting a bus ticket out of town in a hurry, if they expressed those views.

One thing Wally does control very well is the message from the team, the spin. The players stay on message. Geroy. Angus. Brent.
...........

There are those situations in all sports where team Captains bridge the gap between coaches and players. It just seems that this Players' Council has an inordinate amount of influence. And of course it is convenient to trot them out as buffers and advocates for the coaches. Defenders of the status quo.

[notahomer]

...Players play, coaches coach. ...

This is a quote I hear almost every week from Banks..... Makes sense too, IMO

[The_Pauser]

...Players play, coaches coach. ...

This is a quote I hear almost every week from Banks..... Makes sense too, IMO

And players council....council?

[joe kapp22]

Yes, it does.

[Rammer]

Anything is possible I suppose Remember the year we were 3-9 and rattled off 6 straight to get to .500 (not sure exactly what year that was).

But salvaging usually refers to recovering whatever you can after the disaster rather than fixing the problem before it occurs. After 3 plus years of failing to fix some obvious problems (vanilla playbook, Oline issues, poor game time coaching decisions), it is pretty clear that the present coaching staff seem unable to do this. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Wally Buono and what he has done for this team but 1 GC in 9 years in an 8 team league when you had the ingredients for 2 or 3 in that time does not seem like success. Waiting for the annual head scratcher decision like letting Robert Jordan run kicks returns for 4 games before finally, reluctantly going to Yonus Davis. Sticking with some players beyond all reason while letting other players hardly see the field unless absolutely forced to and then being surprised when they were far better than the "WB Approved" choice, more often than not for other teams because their patience for getting a chance eventually ran out. An ongoing series of accommodations to players which has seen us loose draft picks to other teams, the return of Jacques Chapdelaine while at the same time, a complete opposite approach with others (Joe Smith, Jerome Messam, sent packing because of the coaches displeasure). And perhaps the most disturbing of all, the on field coaching choices (the short punts in the Grey Cup, leaving the QB who got you there on the bench for the entire game, giving up possession when you should be going for it, going for it when you should be kicking). Is it salvageable? Probably. Is it fixable by this current cast of coaches? I am very doubtful. They have had their chances and have reworked everything but one....the coaching which has always been given a pass.

I really enjoyed your points here Sir P. What I can only deduce about Wally as a HC is that the OC and DC keep their jobs by adhering to his wishes and thus he feels responsibility for the Lions current predicament. If a HC was detached from his coordinators, I would hope that he would feel enough pressure to make some changes. Although that may be the comfort level Wally feels being the GM as well. Either case places the Lions in a difficult hole to get out of at this point, and the only change that I foresee is that Wally the HC will be replaced by Benevides, thus another misdirection play to the fans for additional time.

[cromartie]

No. And, if you want the type of change this team needs, you don't want it to.

[swervynmerv]

[quote="cromartie"]No. And, if you want the type of change this team needs, you don't want it to.


Bang on Cromartie. Yes the Lions can turn it around hypothetically, but it would take a miracle for them to finish any better than 8-10 this seaon.

I have said before that the WORST posible thing that happened last season is the late season surge that hid many of the issues the Lions had and STILL have.

If the Lions won 7 or 8 of the last eight games and finished 8-10 or 9-9 and got bounced in the WSF is that a good thing? Not IMHO. Nothing will change. Chap or MB will be made Head Coach, the same list of old players that should be cut will be here and we will continue the mediocrity.

I would rather do what the Riders did in 2006 and the Eskimos did in 2010. Bring someone in mid-season to assess the team and then make the necessary changes as soon as the off-season begins. The Riders won the next season and the Eskimos are in the mix thus far this season.

The only way Wally will change is he is FORCED to change.

[cromartie]

Bang on Cromartie. Yes the Lions can turn it around hypothetically, but it would take a miracle for them to finish any better than 8-10 this seaon.

I have said before that the WORST posible thing that happened last season is the late season surge that hid many of the issues the Lions had and STILL have.

If the Lions won 7 or 8 of the last eight games and finished 8-10 or 9-9 and got bounced in the WSF is that a good thing? Not IMHO. Nothing will change. Chap or MB will be made Head Coach, the same list of old players that should be cut will be here and we will continue the mediocrity.

I would rather do what the Riders did in 2006 and the Eskimos did in 2010. Bring someone in mid-season to assess the team and then make the necessary changes as soon as the off-season begins. The Riders won the next season and the Eskimos are in the mix thus far this season.

The only way Wally will change is he is FORCED to change.

In fairness, this is an annual discussion, and when it arises my answer has been basically the same for the last three years, so....

[Sir Purrcival]

Rammer wrote:

What I can only deduce about Wally as a HC is that the OC and DC keep their jobs by adhering to his wishes

Which is why the loss of the likes of Obie, Ackles and Ritchie were so painful. Those three were all established enough to have Wally Buono listen to them. It was much more a peer like arrangement. The relationship between Benevides, Chapdelaine and co. is now much more like father/son. Wally is the family Don now and all must bend to his will. In fairness, it is probably like you suggest, he feels responsible for the problems and like any parent , his natural instinct is to protect his youthful charges. At the very least, I'm sure he doesn't want the task of letting any of them go.

On the other hand, running the Lions is a business and Wally has let many players go before their due date in the name of renewing the team. Some because he just seemed to believe they weren't right (aka Jamal Johnson), others because they were nearing (not at) the end of their careers (Otis Floyd) and some because their performances weren't up to Wally standards. There is no place for undue loyalty in this game and the loyalty that some have gotten is beyond undue (Javy Glatt). It is a lousy part of the job but that is why Wally gets paid the big bucks. If he isn't willing to do something about it, them others will have to.

[notahomer]

...Players play, coaches coach. ...

This is a quote I hear almost every week from Banks..... Makes sense too, IMO

And players council....council?

IMO, Banks comment is a weekly crack at the Players Council (but of course only he knows). Banks was the one to slip up earlier this year and say probably what he meant instead of what he was suppossed to say. Okay maybe he hasn't been the demon of past seasons but I still like what he's got to say and for the most part how he plays.

The quote itself makes a ton of sense, IMO. Buono says similiar stuff after every loss too. The problem I have with the Coaches is if your players keep making mistakes and you have changed players and the mistakes keep happening. Something else might be wrong, ya think?

[WestCoastJoe]

Just listened to Suitor and Patterson? talk with Angus Reid for an hour.

I did not like hearing Angus throw Casey under the bus, after Casey was cut. But his talk was OK.

Here are some ideas discussed.

Reid ...

A team waiting for the screwup to happen.
We believe we have the talent.
Confidence shaken.
Effort good.

1st Q. Good variety. Things go wrong, we throw the plan out.
Mistakes. Cracks. Flood gates open.

O Line graded out poorly in their own eyes. Wally did not grade the team. They tried to Line slide to Willis. Bombers adjusted. Bombers took it to them.

1 pt in 5 3rd Qs. We don't make a ton of adjustments in the 2nd half. We're gonna stay the course. Stay with the plan.

Post game emotions. "Who are we?" "Is this it?" "Is this the team we are?"

Changes? Bye week. Expect changes? I would expect it. Something to be different.

People are askng has the game passed WB and his staff by? Other teams revolutionized game. Reid sees younger American coaches with unorthodox methods. Diff D fronts. O formations. Exotic. WB is a traditionalist. Vanilla. Predictable. Is it not working anymore?

...................

Suitor ...

Without Bobby Ackles the team lost a mentor, sound board, decision advisor.

There are now questions about injured players playing, decisions on field.

Why are 3rd quarters not better re coordination?

Why have we not seen any accountability from the coaches publicly?

Suitor says fans need to hear Wally say: "We have got to start preparing them better. We have good athletes."

Wally appears to be protecting that side of it. "It's the players fault. They are not performing well enough."
............

Reid ...

Wally is the top football guy in organization. Nobody above him with football experience. There is nobody to question him.

Suitor: Fans need to hear: "On the bye week, we are evaluating our coordination on offence and defence."

Reid: "Fans have to know we are doing something about this."

"We have to execute. We have good talent. Do what we are capable of."

"Stick to the game plan."
............

Not a bad discussion. Reid said some forthright things.

Suitor was good.
..............

What I heard, sometimes inferred, some from Reid and some from Suitor ...

We throw the game plan out too soon.

Not enough adjustments at half time.

New coaches have changed the game. (I've been saying this for a while now. Austin, Hufnagel and Trestman. Wally has not been able to adjust.)

Wally is a tradionalist. Vanilla schemes. Predictable schemes.

We miss Bobby Ackles wise counsel and guidance. Wally does not answer to any football people.

There are questions about why play injured players. Decisions on the field. Poor 3rd quarters.

There is no accountability for the coaches.

[Toppy Vann]

WestcoastJoe 1st Q. Good variety. Things go wrong, we throw the plan out.
Mistakes. Cracks. Flood gates open.

O Line graded out poorly in their own eyes. Wally did not grade the team. They tried to Line slide to Willis. Bombers adjusted. Bombers took it to them.

1 pt in 5 3rd Qs. We don't make a ton of adjustments in the 2nd half. We're gonna stay the course. Stay with the plan.

You gotta help me here. I 'm having trouble with this. Or maybe I've got a solution.

1Q...When things go wrong as they always will they throw the game plan out. That's good coaching???????????

Half time - they don't adjust - stay the course. BUT they already tossed out the game plan and it's panic stations and its not working. That's not good coaching.

JC is in on over his head. He scripted a couple of good opening drives and that is it. He can't read the flow of a game.

Sliding to block Willis ... how hard is it to make that adjustment when they're turnstiling your line? Put a back in there and not let the entire line get whupped - but that is coaching. Can't JC remember those plays or no signals for those? That is why they run so few plays. JC has no time to learn them. How could a QB learn them too?

I suspect the problem is that Chapdelaine probably can't learn enough signals to make adjustments as he refuses to speak into the freaking mic and let his QB know what is going on and what play and blocking to make sure they have in there. But JC is MUTE...
JC is clearly not a listener to others views either. The media should be calling him on that as JC rejects a tool that all coaches in all leagues fully embrace and use.

Good coaches learn to keep their heads when all others around you are losing theirs - and if the plan is right - keep to it as the plan should surely take into account falling behind. But what is known now - this group are not good coaches for the modern CFL.