Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

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Blitz
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Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Roar you Lions roar
The game you played was a total bore
From the Rockies to the Island Sea
You showed how bad your play can be

POST GAME THOUGHTS

Tom Landy said the job of a football coach "is to make men do what they don’t want to do, in order to achieve what they’ve always wanted to be".

Judging by our Leos play in this game against the Argos, Rich Campbell was unable or unwilling to get our Leos to do the things they need to do in order to achieve the success they want to have.

What a difference a week makes. Last week, we travelled to Montreal on a short week and dominated a team that had won 17 of its last 18 games. One week later, and on our home turf, the Argos completely dominated us on offence, defense, and special teams.

A couple of weeks ago, before our two-game winning streak, I posted that often football coaches have to be brought to their knees in order for the notion of change to enter their brains. Last game, Jordan Maksymic was praised for such an excellent offensive game plan and play calling. I highly doubt I will read the same positive comments after such a vanilla, predictable game plan and play calling against the Argos. What happened to all that misdirection and bootleg action we used against Montreal? The reality is that all those plays went back and deep into Maksymic's filing cabinet.

But why? Because the changes he implemented were not embedded in his mind. The pressure was off. He went back to familiar and familiar is a vanilla, inside zone read, pocket passing, deep intermediate Spread Offence

The Spread offence is not an offensive system. For those coordinators who lead it, it’s a religious sect. Its as rigid as doctrine. They almost see it as sacrilegious to stray away from it. They may do so under significant pressure, when brought to their knees, for a couple of games but it's like they have sinned to do so and as quickly as possible, will revert back to their comfort zone.

You would think that after our losing streak and then making some key offensive changes in the previous two games that we could continue to do the things that got us turned around and on our winning streak the last two games. But compulsive behavior is compulsive behavior and we compulsively went back to what did not work.
Lets have a closer look.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on the game. :thup: :thup:
LIFE IS LIKE A BOX OF CHOCOLATES. YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET. BUT OUR OFFENCE IS LIKE VANILLA ICE CREAM. YOU ALMOST ALWAYS KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET.
It was a miserable offensive performance in which our offence only looked dangerous with Brice and Terrell in final minutes of the game. In the first quarter Rourke started the game by going just one-of-five passing for five yards, as our Lions managed negative one-yard of net offence in the first quarter. We couldn’t run and we couldn’t pass. That first quarter set the tone for the rest of the game.

Our defense played very well for most of the first half and kept us in the game, until the final 53 seconds of the first half, and then caved. Rourke had just engineered our offence into the end zone, running in for the major himself but our defensive collapse, with such little time left on the clock before half time, was a dagger to our own throat. :bang:

Campbell started Adams for the second half. I was not surprised. I anticipated Campbell would insert Adams into action at the first opportunity, if Rourke stumbled a bit. He wanted to give Adams the opportunity to play, to be the good guy, to share the cheese. Did he make the right decision? No, in my mind and here is why. Had Adams taken a lot of practice reps with the first team offence this week, then yes, perhaps Adams could have ignited things or provided the ‘spark’ Cambell hoped Adams would provide.

Rourke had a poor first quarter but had engineered a drive for a touchdown on our final drive of the first half and had looked good doing so. Therefore, it made better sense to have Rourke start the second half and after a drive or two, had he not continued to play well, then inserting Adams would have made a bit more sense.

One could anticipate Adams would have some rust, but he also had training camp and has only missed about five games. He has been practicing for a while now. Therefore, a better performance could have been expected. However, Adams looked like the Adams of his last game of action before his injury, when he played against Winnipeg and we lost 25-0 and we looked futile and Adams looked awful.

The reality is that, if Vernon Adams has time to throw, he can dissect a defense better than any present CFL quarterback. He has an outstanding arm. But blitz Adams or get quick pressure and he is in big trouble. He is not good at throwing the football away or throwing to a safety valve. Instead, he will try to escape, like a college quarterback, dancing around, often a half second too late and get sacked or throw an ill-timed interception.

In many ways, Adams plays a Russell Wilson style of long ball and therefore he can look great or look terrible. Adams can process his progressions quickly enough, but he has a very slow learning curve regarding quarterback pressure - the need to throw more quickly and the need to leave the pocket sooner, when he is not getting his 3 seconds or more in the pocket. Its been an Achilles heel of his for a long time with little hope of improvement or change in sight.

However, quarterbacks, as important as they are, most often get too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. They may be the most important player on the field but football is a team game. Football is a game in which the coach effects the game more than in any other sport.

Why? In no other sport, does the game stop after each play so the coach can send in a different strategy.

The reality is that we have a plug and play vanilla Spread offence that is not designed around our offensive talent for decades. We really have not had that since early 2004, with the following rare exceptions - in 2007, when Hufnagel as consultant and Steve Kruck was our play caller and gave us an offence designed around a running attack with Joe Smith as our tailback, in the second half of 2011, when the losses piled up so bad early that season that we modified our Spread Offence into much more of a misdirection bootleg offence with Lulay bootlegging (and often throwing to Harris off the bootleg), and in 2013, in the second half of that season, when we went with two backs in Andrew Harris and Stefan Logan and changed our blocking scheme from the typical Spread offence zone blocking scheme to man blocking.
THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

No matter how mobile so many of our quarterbacks have been (and we have had some very impressively mobile quarterbacks) from Casey Printers, Buck Pierce, Jarious Jackson, Travis Lulay, Jonathan Jennings, Nathan Rourke, and Vernon Adams, we have kept them in the same spot in the pocket like a shooting duck and let defensive lines tee off on them. Heck in the good ol Wally days, when our quarterbacks were sitting ducks, in the Spread, Wally said "That's why we have four of them (Dickenson, Printers, Pierce and Jackson and we were down to Pierce at the time). It seems like not a whole lot has changed other than we only have three quarterbacks now.
Even worse we plug and played Travis Lulay into a Run Pass Option offence that turned into a nightmare and for good reason as we really pushed some round pegs into square holes.

Our Leos team gave up more sacks than any other CFL team in the first two decades of this new century and we were in vanilla Spread Offence throughout, other than the Run Pass Option of Jarious Jackson. During the 2012 season, Kelly Bates, (our left guard back then, now our present offensive line coach) moaned publicly about how much more challenging it was to pass block when the defense knows exactly the spot the quarterback will be throwing from on almost each play. The Bombers use play action bootlegs and misdirection play action bootlegs about 10 times more each game with Zack Collaros at quarterback than we do. A bootleg play for our Leos is as rare as hens teeth and rocking horse poo. :wink:

The Spread and the Inside Zone Read running play go together like peas and carrots (even when the peas and carrots are old, past their best date, and mushy) they are the only vegetable allowed. Its 2024 and we are basically in the same offence we ran in 2005, as hard as that it to believe. It seems the more things change, the more they stay the same. :wink:

Quite simply, an offence cannot run the football inside the tackles successfully on a consistent basis unless they are able to stretch out the defensive line. How to do that? Its quite simple. The running attack has to attack the edges with outside zone read plays, reverses, fly sweeps etc. if in the Spread Offence to widen out the defense. Also, relying on an inside zone read run only, and also without the quarterback faking and keeping the football once in a while is far too predictable and easy to defend. The defensive ends have to be stretched out.

Better still, getting out of the Spread and using tight ends and two back sets, using double teams and kickout blocks and trap blocks also can gets it done. Play action bootleg action and misdirection bootleg action also widen out defensive ends and opens up the inside running game.

In the passing game, the key is to move the pocket as well as get the football out quickly, especially on first down with high percentage passing plays. Second and ten plays into the defense's hands. If they get pressure, a quick pass or dump off is often stopped short of a first down on a long yardage needed second down play. The short passing game sets up highly favorable second down and distance situations and it also sets up the long pass, when there is time to throw it, and when the defense starts creeping up.

You set up the deep ball. We don't do that, and defenses are ready for us to throw it and we often throw it when we shouldn't or don't have time to throw it and take a sack. A sack should be thought of as nitro. On first down, it sets up a terrible second down situation. On second down. it ends a drive. Sacks negatively impact field position. They can also be demoralizing for an offence and a team while pumping up the opposition.

However, our offensive philosophy tends to treat them as just a necessary hazard at times in order to throw as many deep intermediate passes as possible.

In today’s football, avoiding negative yardage plays as well as first-down plays that do not net decent first down yardage are a key to offensive game planning. Analytics support the concept. It's all about percentages and successful offensive coordinators are focused on high percentage offence, quick reads, quick releases, second and decent, and getting the football to players in space or in seams against zone defenses and at full speed against man defense.
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES
What do we try to do offensively?

We run inside zone read run plays inside the tackles constantly against defensive lines playing tight gaps because they can play us that way due to the philosophy of both our run and pass game. In the pass game, most of our patterns are too long and therefore require more time for our quarterback to throw the football and tighter windows to throw the football into. Its low percentage football that can look exceptionally good when our quarterback has lots of time to throw and can make the almost purrfect pass into tight coverage.

When defenses drop nine or eight into zone coverage, taking our sweet time throwing the football puts us at high risk for interceptions as well as requires precise patterns and long precise throws. When teams blitz us or get quick pressure either due to defensive stunts (easier to do with narrow gaps) or just plain beat an offensive lineman, our quarterbacks too often are sacked trying to escape (usually too late) or still waiting for one of those long dig patterns to open up.

The time to throw the football against eight and nine man pass coverage is early and often in seams, before the linebackers can make their drops. Patterns need to be shorter because throwing longer passes against nine-man pass coverage, with linebackers in their drops, zone underneath, and then often two safeties deep is challenging. The fact that we have been able to do so, at times, is due to the fact that both or our quarterbacks can throw bullets, and our receivers often make excellent catches in tight coverage.

We not only need to move the pocket, bootleg, and sprint out our quarterbacks more often. The fact is we need more variety in our run and pass game. I’ve already mentioned some concepts to stretch defenses horizontally with our run game, but we also need to stretch defenses more horizontally with our passing game too, with our quarterbacks putting pressure on the edges with their legs and throwing off the run or running (dual threat) as well as integrating screens, quick tosses with a lead blocker for our tailback, etc.

Our short passing attack, which we do use it on occasion, does not have our receivers running at full speed. Instead, they are in curl or stop patterns which allows the defensive back a much easier time to come up and make a tackle. We also have thrown in some RPO into our short passing game. Last game, Rourke was given an RPO, faked to Stanback and threw a pass to our wide receiver towards the sideline. I thought WTF, why are we running RPO with a read to a wide receiver on an out pattern when he is not playing run. It was head shaking and demonstrated that some of our offensive concepts are not well designed.

Finally, we know our offensive line is not the strength of our team and it also has had to deal with injuries. Zone blocking is a very coordinated approach to blocking as the offensive line tends to operate as "One". Those two facts alone dictate a different philosophy. Our offensive inside zone read, long intermediate pass design would be at least more conducive to a more outstanding offensive line.

But our Head Coach, offensive coordinator and quarterbacks (especially Adams) continue to attempt to execute, as if our offensive line can pass block successfully for minutes and can open up holes and blow defenders out no matter how tight they are lined up and know what to expect from our run attack.

Adding another stupid to the recipe, our Leos paid a heck of a lot of money to sign Terry Williams in the off-season when they could have signed Jarion Grant for much cheaper. The decision was very obvious last night as to the choice we should have made. I wonder how much input Mike “Benny Bumps” Benevdes had in the decision but it would not surprise that Benny, trained by Wally, would want a punt returner who rarely fumbled and ran up the gut but did not do much else) would be preferred over an electric return man who would take it wide at times but might fumble on rare occasion.
WRAP
I did not even mention our defense. Right now, this Leos team lacks strong enough leadership, as well as a strong identity, and the kind of hunger and intensity it takes to win consistently at this level. Its disillusioning to be a Leos fan after this stinker of a game.

Roar you Lions roar
Not lookin' Grey Cup material, like '64
You need to get off the floor
Show some leadership at the core
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
TheLionKing
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Time to write to Neil McAvoy....
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DanoT
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

The Lions should hire Blitz as a consultant. OTOH, they can just come here and read his posts for free. :wink:
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B.C.FAN
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Blitz made a lot of good comments on the B.C. offensive structure and game-planning. I want to focus mainly on the defence.

First, though, football is a game of momentum. In any system, players have to make plays and execute. B.C. receivers didn't help their QBs, especially early in the game. I counted at least 4 dropped passes, including several deep balls that could have been momentum-changers. Alexander Hollins and Keon Hatcher are supposed to be the team's leading American receivers but they caught only 3 of 11 balls thrown to them, 2 of which were by Hatcher on back-to-back plays in the second quarter to set up the Lions' first field goal. Hollins didn't catch any of his 3 targets before leaving with a shoulder injury in the second quarter. His replacement, Terry Williams, wasn't targeted at all. Justin McInnis, meanwhile, continued to impress, despite having to switch positions midseason to make room for Hatcher. He again led the Lions with 4 catches for 95 yards on of 5 targets. His first 2 catches came on the Lions' last offensive possession of the first half to set up Nathan Rourke's 9-yard TD that gave the gave the Lions momentum with just over a minute left in the half. But that brings us to the B.C. defence.

Argo players simply made plays all night long, and the B.C. defence frustratingly sat back and waited for the play to come to them. When it did, they failed to make tackles. Gone was the aggressive defence that humbled Montreal last week by attacking the line of scrimmage and repeatedly forcing the Alouettes into second and long situations. This week, the B.C. defence simply conceded short passes to the flats and sat back waiting for the play to come to them. When it did, they were deked by Argo players in the open field and caught flat-footed on short and intermediate crossing routes in the second level. That included a 5-play, 75-yard touchdown drive that took only 59 seconds and flipped the momentum back to the Argos in the dying seconds of the half. The Lions never recovered.

The Argos faced second and short yardage all night long, converting 18 of 29 second downs (62%), while the Lions converted only 6 of 17 opportunities. That gave the Argos an extra 16 minutes and 50 seconds of ball possession. The Lions didn't have a chance to get back in the game because the defence continued to give up long scoring drives. It was small consolation that the B.C. defence gave up only 2 TDs. Six Argo field goals were enough to win the game.

Chad Kelly repeatedly escaped pressure and found open receivers. Argo players made defenders miss and turned short gains into long gains. The Lions didn't allow a completion more than 27 yards downfield but they allowed Makai Polk to make a 25-yard catch and ramble another 27 yards through the middle of the secondary to set up the Argos' back-breaking TD in the dying seconds of the second quarter. As I commented in the game thread, pressure defence works, prevent defence doesn't.

I like Ryder Varga's tackling ability, but his stats are misleading. Of his 9 tackles, 6 came on plays where the Argos gained first-down yardage, including passes of 10, 17 and 20 yards. The Lions don't seem to have the personnel to play effective zone defence. They do have players with the drive and quickness to attack the line of scrimmage, Varga being one of them, along with T.J. Lee, Garry Peters, Patrice Rene and Christophe Beaulieu. The latter two were used only as special teamers and injury replacements against the Argos.

To have success on defence and save their season, the Lions need to attack and dictate to opposing offences, and not continually bend and allow offences to dictate to them. There are good quarterbacks throughout the league who will exploit weaknesses if given time and space.
don corleone
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

TheLionKing wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:43 pm Time to write to Neil McAvoy....
Neil McEvoy is a contributor in all that he has done and does on behalf of the club but he is miscast as co - gm of football operations imo. Similar to Jeremy O'Day he would be more well suited to a VP role.

Jordan Maksymic followed a similar career path now working for his second organization.

Point being when you continually promote from within you will eventually run out of new ideas.
don corleone
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

As up and down as the season has gone for Alexander Hollins it appears to have taken a turn for the worse and he will be missing some time. Unfortunate for both him and the team if it is long term. In review it seems he was given a contract beyond the value of his level of production and questionable if they bring him back under similar terms for next year imo. I expect Berryhill will start in his absence.
Blitz
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Loved reading your astute analysis of our defense against the Argos B.C. Fan.
Argo players simply made plays all night long, and the B.C. defence frustratingly sat back and waited for the play to come to them. When it did, they failed to make tackles. Gone was the aggressive defence that humbled Montreal last week by attacking the line of scrimmage and repeatedly forcing the Alouettes into second and long situations. This week, the B.C. defence simply conceded short passes to the flats and sat back waiting for the play to come to them. When it did, they were deked by Alouette players in the open field and caught flat-footed on short and intermediate crossing routes in the second level. That included a 5-play, 75-yard touchdown drive that took only 59 seconds and flipped the momentum back to the Argos in the dying seconds of the half. The Lions never recovered, B.C. Fan .
As you noted, B.C. Fan, we played the Argos differently on defense than we played Montreal a short week ago. We reverted on defense, just as we did on offence. During our losing streak our defense consistently conceded short passes to the flats and sat back waiting for the play to come. Against Montreal we attacked the line of scrimmage. The difference in game plan or philosophy back to a more passive style also meant the nemesis of being caught flat footed on crossing routes and poor tackling returned to the equation. Of course, any offence that has a steady diet of second and short will have a high percentage second down conversion rate. The Argos also won the time of possession stat and wore our defense down as the game continued.

In your post, B.C Fan, you stated “to have success on defence and save their season, the Lions need to attack and dictate to opposing offences, and not continually bend and allow offences to dictate to them. There are good quarterbacks throughout the league who will exploit weaknesses if given time and space” and I agree. Do you have any thoughts on why we reverted back to our more familiar passive style, after playing a more aggressive and successful style against Montreal?

Your post-game thoughts, while more focused on defense, also pointed out that our receivers did not help out our quarterbacks, especially early in the game with dropped passes, including deep balls that could have been momentum changers. Neither our offensive line nor our receivers helped out our quarterbacks against the Argos and our offensive coordinator was not an asset either.

Nathan Rourke and several other Leo players likely added some extra fuel to the motivational equation to the Argos game by wearing Be More than a Bystander t-shirts jusst prior to the contest (See Somethin’, Say Somethin’) in support of the teams gender-based violence prevention program. If it was a team program, then all members of the team should have worn them, but having only a select number of players wear them before the Argos game likely provided a different connotation by the Argos that this group of players were intentionally choosing to embarrass the Argos team and organization. Rourke stood by his choice of wearing the t-shirt prior to the contest, having no regrets, and said he felt that he had a 'platform to say certain things'.

I am not so sure I am as comfortable with the Nathan Rourke Version 2 who has returned to the CFL than the Nathan Rourke Version 1 who played for our Leos for two seasons, was our starter for one season, and left to fulfil his NFL aspirations. I have no issue with Nathan Rourke not liking half time interviews and I support Nathan Rourke’s views on not being a bystander to sexual harassment. I think its very unacceptable to be a bystander to any very unacceptable behavior that hurts or frightens another person. But sometimes timing is an important factor in life and in messaging.

Nathan Rourke was a much-adored young Canadian quarterback, who after one very successful CFL season, chose to leave his organization, his team, his teammates, his CFL fans, and his country for the bigger lights and increased salary of the NFL. A number of CFL quarterbacks (all U.S. born prior to Rourke) have made the same attempt. I understand why he would choose to do so but not every all star CFL quarterback have made that choice, when that opportunity arose. Many chose to remain in the CFL, ignored those bright lights, and instead chose to remain in the CFL and also remain loyal to their team and teammates.

When Nathan Rourke’s NFL aspirations turned into ash, he was able to quickly sign a three-year contract making him the highest paid player in the CFL and return to his former team, even though his CFL career only has a background of one season as a starter and it was a season in which he only started 10 games due to injury and lost his only playoff contest. There is no question however, that Rourke was very impressive in that one season as a CFL starter and count me in as one of his biggest supporters from the time he was drafted by the Leos.

Nathan Rourke was given hero status upon his return and instantly provided with the the keys to the B.C. offence with three practices (only one practice with his starting receivers) He had only been back in Canada, in the CFL, and with our Leos for four games prior to playing the Argos. Upon his return, he essentially gave lip service to a half time interview he agreed to do and embarrassed Farjan Lalji. He also chose to be bulletin board material prior to the Argos game, so long as it means standing up for what he believes.

No question that I feel no differently about player half time interviews than Rourke does and posted so on Lionbackers. No question that silence can be a cowardly act. However, perhaps Nathan Rourke would be wiser and more connected with his previous persona of being a humble person and earn his way back first before reneging on a commitment or being a spokesman, just because in his own words, ‘he has a platform to say certain things’.

Perhaps respondingappropriately to a respected CFL media representative in Farjan and being a little more patient, before using your platform, in any manner to criticize anything about the CFL, another team, or another player, even when its legitimately so, when you have only returned to Canada, the CFL, and the B.C. Lions for a few weeks (and overall not played well so far) might be a wiser and more modest approach to your return to Canada, the CFL, and the B.C. Lions.

It will be interesting to see how Nathan Rourke deals with adversity as time marches on and whether there is continues to be a match with his public presentation and his true self. I say that, in part, because it would not surprise that Campbell will choose Vernon Adams over Rourke as his starter after the bye week. To me, it’s a coin toss. Campbell could easily say that Vernon was his starter before injury, has the respect of his teammates and Rourke will be the backup and come into games as the situation dictates (and, of course, is an important member of the team now and going forward) He could easily say he wants to take the pressure off Rourke and give him more time to acclimatize to the CFL game.

But no matter how the Leos brass play it, or Rourke and Adams publically play it, we have a quarterback controversy. When we signed Rourke that would be the case, no matter how it was played. Vernon can play it that he is just happy to be Rourkes' teamate but he has to be insulted they signed him when he has played so well overall and given his all to our Leos. Rourke can play it that he just thinks Vernon is a 'peachy guy' and a great teamate as long as Rourke is the starter but he may not be so nice about it confidentially, should he be given the backup role.

Everyone thought Dickenson was a 'nice guy' but when the quarterback controversy happened, but he was not the Mr. Nice Guy that he played so well publicly, and the media and fans believed (and most still do). He had a terrible temper to go along with his high level of competitiveness and he did his all to turn teammates against Printers and lobbied hard and threatened he would publicly request to be traded if not given the starters job back. His 2004 Grey Cup start was evidence of the under the table machinations that had gone on behind the scenes.

However, quarterback controversies are not mostly created by the two quarterbacks involved. They are mostly created or given fuel or linger due to coaches and football organizations decision making and handling of the situation. One quarterback, the more popular one, will be favored and the other become the fall guy.

A quarterback controversy means taking sides. I have no problem making my choice but first some background. I do not always choose the more popular choice. I chose Printers over Dickenson in 2004 and 2005 and felt we should have left Jarious Jackson in the game, rather than insert Dickenson in the 2007 West Final. I also liked McManus over Austin, Pierce over Jackson, Lulay over Printers, Jennings over Lulay, Rourke over Reilly (thankfully Reilly retired)

The notion from Rich Campbell that he inserted Adams because he thought our Leos needed a spart at that moment in time is *poop*. In the second quarter Rourke was 5 out of 7 passing for 105 yards and had just run the football into the end zone for a touchdown, completing a successful Leos offensive drive with less than a minute before ethe half. I guess that was not ‘sparky’ enough. The reality is that Campbell just wanted to get Adams into a game and chose the wrong time to do it.

Perhaps naming Adams as the starter would be a good thing. I believe Rourke is the better quarterback because he is better at qetting the football out quicker and Adams plays too much long ball and takes too many sacks. I also do not believe that, because a player was a starter before an injury, one should get their starting job back. What if a team has a barely adequate starter, (for a variety of reasons) and that barely adequate starter gets injured, and a much better player takes his place.

Should the starter get his job back? The nature of the game is to win and to put the best players out there, REGARDLESS. Their teammates deserve that, the team deserves that, and the fans deserve that.

However, I believe it might be in our Leos best interests to go with Adams and then, when he falters, and he likely will, bring Rourke in as the starter for the rest of the season. If Adams lights it up all the rest of the way, so be it and it would only be our good fortune, but that is unlikely with our offensive line play and our offensive coordinator’s philosophy. We need a quarterback that can get the football out quickly and that is not the Adams we know. But it would give Rourke more time to work on his game at practice, perhaps get some perspective, and earn his way back into the starter's role.


We are in interesting times in Leo Land.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Hazmat
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

The oc play calling was terrible. Reminded me of jarious Jackson going for broke on the long ball. Finally Rourke took it in by himself on a broken play call. Coaching on both sides of the ball is a major problem.
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SammyGreene
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

The notion from Rich Campbell that he inserted Adams because he thought our Leos needed a spart at that moment in time is *poop*. In the second quarter Rourke was 5 out of 7 passing for 105 yards and had just run the football into the end zone for a touchdown, completing a successful Leos offensive drive with less than a minute before ethe half. I guess that was not ‘sparky’ enough. The reality is that Campbell just wanted to get Adams into a game and chose the wrong time to do it.

Perhaps naming Adams as the starter would be a good thing. I believe Rourke is the better quarterback because he is better at qetting the football out quicker and Adams plays too much long ball and takes too many sacks. I also do not believe that, because a player was a starter before an injury, one should get their starting job back. What if a team has a barely adequate starter, (for a variety of reasons) and that barely adequate starter gets injured, and a much better player takes his place.

Should the starter get his job back? The nature of the game is to win and to put the best players out there, REGARDLESS. Their teammates deserve that, the team deserves that, and the fans deserve that.

However, I believe it might be in our Leos best interests to go with Adams and then, when he falters, and he likely will, bring Rourke in as the starter for the rest of the season. If Adams lights it up all the rest of the way, so be it and it would only be our good fortune, but that is unlikely with our offensive line play and our offensive coordinator’s philosophy. We need a quarterback that can get the football out quickly and that is not the Adams we know. But it would give Rourke more time to work on his game at practice, perhaps get some perspective, and earn his way back into the starter's role.
Totally on board with your thoughts on this Blitz. We saw Hatcher get his old position back even though McInnis was thriving playing it and should still be there 4 games later.
The standings are far too tight with few games left in the season but Campbell does seem like he is more a players' coach. Don't know the culture in the lockerroom but what I have seen Adams is definitely part of this team's leadership group along with Lee, Peters, Chungh and Mackie.
I think the he was waiting for the opportunity to insert Adams to please his players but the timing couldn't have been worse. They had gone 4 straight 2 and outs earlier and the trigger could have been pulled then even though Rourke was a victim of more dropped balls from Hollins and Hatcher.
When the Lions were still reeling after Rourke's 1st start against the Bombers my thought then was save him from this trainwreck and go back to VA when he was healthy enough knowing it's Rourke's team in 2025 to give fans some optimism. Obviously the Ottawa and Montreal games changed that although here we are again.

With still so much to play for Rourke is their best option going forward but you never know.
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DanoT
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Obviously the Lions can't keep both QBs next season, so it makes sense to decide right now which QB to keep and which to trade next season. That keeper is Rourke and he should be the declared starter right now. This is not a bad deal for Adams who as a Lion he has played at an all star level and it has been the best played football of his career and he will be in demand. Not playing will not harm his resume in any way.

Stamps and Riders (Harris is 38) have got to be interested in Adams. It is nothing new for CFL QBs to play for multiple teams in their career. Lulay was the exception as one of the few QBs in the modern CFL era to just play for one team.
don corleone
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Interesting perspective Blitz.

In retrospect signing Rourke was an opportunity not to be passed up. He is only 26 which is both a pro and a con. He runs like a deer right now and must be getting advice from everyone and their dog about what he should do. Sometimes it's a lot to deal with. On that note there are things Nathan Rourke can learn from VA that may help him get where he wants to go faster than he would get there on his own. He has to be open to that process for it to happen.

What I am reading between the lines is that everyone may not have been as onboard with the decision as hoped for and if there is friction between the Co - GM's is this how Campbell is using his authority as coach to undermine the Rourke signing. Sharing a task is not easy and may be something Duane Vienneau will have to look at in time.

Sticking to the original plan to play Rourke to re-evaluate after the bye would have caused much less upheaval but I still don't think there is a controversy. If I'm guessing I think Rourke gets the start when Hamilton comes to town. It won't be an easy game and Lions will not want to lose.
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

In some ways signing Nathan Rourke is similar to when they signed Mike Reilly despite having an excellent QB in Travis Lulay who ironically was healthy at the time. Probably ended Lulay's career two years earlier than it could have been although I would be surprised if he did not have other offers at the time he chose to retire.
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Toppy Vann
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Quite simply, an offence cannot run the football inside the tackles successfully on a consistent basis unless they are able to stretch out the defensive line. How to do that? Its quite simple. The running attack has to attack the edges with outside zone read plays, reverses, fly sweeps etc. if in the Spread Offence to widen out the defense. Also, relying on an inside zone read run only, and also without the quarterback faking and keeping the football once in a while is far too predictable and easy to defend. The defensive ends have to be stretched out.

Better still, getting out of the Spread and using tight ends and two back sets, using double teams and kickout blocks and trap blocks also can gets it done. Play action bootleg action and misdirection bootleg action also widen out defensive ends and opens up the inside running game.

In the passing game, the key is to move the pocket as well as get the football out quickly, especially on first down with high percentage passing plays. Second and ten plays into the defense's hands. If they get pressure, a quick pass or dump off is often stopped short of a first down on a long yardage needed second down play. The short passing game sets up highly favorable second down and distance situations and it also sets up the long pass, when there is time to throw it, and when the defense starts creeping up.

You set up the deep ball. We don't do that, and defenses are ready for us to throw it and we often throw it when we shouldn't or don't have time to throw it and take a sack. A sack should be thought of as nitro. On first down, it sets up a terrible second down situation. On second down. it ends a drive. Sacks negatively impact field position. They can also be demoralizing for an offence and a team while pumping up the opposition.

However, our offensive philosophy tends to treat them as just a necessary hazard at times in order to throw as many deep intermediate passes as possible.
You nail it here.

Adams not getting reps then tossed into the game made fans in the stands happy momentarily but doing it with no practice reps makes little sense.

You want an opposing defense pre-snap unsure of what's going to happen or where you'll attack.
BC is not much for that for the reasons that Blitz notes.
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

Time to write to Neil McAvoy....
TheLionKing
Neil McEvoy is a contributor in all that he has done and does on behalf of the club but he is miscast as co - gm of football operations imo. Similar to Jeremy O'Day he would be more well suited to a VP role.Jordan Maksymic followed a similar career path now working for his second organization. Point being when you continually promote from within you will eventually run out of new ideas.
Don Corleone
I agree that both McAvoy and Campbell are miscast as general managers. I think it would be best if Campbell just coached, McAvoy was VP of football operations and we were able to hire a good GM. Dave Dickenson is the only CFL Head Coach who is also a GM while Campbell is a Head Coach and co GM. All other CFL Head Coaches only coach.

One only has to look at the demise of Calgary under Dickenson as soon as he also assumed GM duties. Its difficult to do both jobs these days. Sometimes the jobs are a Catch 22 scenario when one person occupies both positions.

As for Maksymic, it depends on how one looks at football. One scenario, which I will refer to as the Buono Scenario means the system is always right and then blame can be placed on the players…..in other words its ‘root, toot, we just gotta execute and make more plays, you know, you know” . It’s not just some football fans and sports writers buy into this paradigm, but most players do too. They have been trained and conditioned into a thought process that its all on them, regardless, cause they did not 'execute well enough or make enough plays.

What I find most interesting about the Buono Scenario is that the players are always blamed for losses but somehow wins become a reflection of the Head Coach and to the point that coach could even call himself legendary. :wink:

The second scenario, which I will refer to as the Proportional Scenario, looks at all aspects of a win or loss, including the offensive or defensive philosophy, the offensive system, the game planning, and play design and play calling. Therefore, in some situations, proportional responsibility for success or lack thereof, lands on the coaches feet as well as the players and sometimes even more so.

I tend to favor the Proportional Scenario for professional team sports and especially for pro football, where there is more time to scout and prepare for games and to design and call each and every play. Therefore, there is more opportunity for coaches to significantly impact a game more than any other team sport.

Certainly, I agree with you in general, that Campbell wants to be liked and is a player's coach. I also agree that Adams has been part of the leadership group. I also read in your post that you agreed with me that Campbell was looking for an opportunity to insert Adams and one of those reasons was likely to please his players. Yes, but he likely had other reasons, including his own relationship with Adams and their history.

I really wonder if McEvoy, Campbell, and Doman were all on the same page in terms of signing Rourke. Its possible they all were, as Cambell could have viewed the signing of Rourke as a way to save the season with Adams injured. However I can also Campbell him not wanting to sign Rourke, avoid a quarterback controversy and its potential negative impact, as well as avoid making a choice between the two. I can see McAvoy and Doman wanting to sign Rourke because they will not be in the headlights when the choice of Rourke or Adams is made.

Perhaps the thrust for signing Rourke came from Doman. He is the one who would be focused most on increasing attendance, followed by McAvoy. Coaching would be Campbells’ first priority.
Totally on board with your thoughts on this Blitz. We saw Hatcher get his old position back even though McInnis was thriving playing it and should still be there 4 games later. The standings are far too tight with few games left in the season but Campbell does seem like he is more a players' coach. Don't know the culture in the locker room but what I have seen Adams is definitely part of this team's leadership group along with Lee, Peters, Chungh and Mackie.I think he was waiting for the opportunity to insert Adams to please his players but the timing couldn't have been worse. They had gone 4 straight 2 and outs earlier and the trigger could have been pulled then even though Rourke was a victim of more dropped balls from Hollins and Hatcher.
Sammy Greene .
You nailed it Sammy!

Certainly, I agree that Campbell wants to be liked and is more of a players' coach. Also agree that Adams has been part of the leadership group. I also read in your post that you agreed with me that Campbell was looking for an opportunity to insert Adams and one of those reasons was likely to please his players. But he likely had other reasons, including his own relationship with Adams and his belief in him.
In some ways signing Nathan Rourke is similar to when they signed Mike Reilly despite having an excellent QB in Travis Lulay who ironically was healthy at the time. Probably ended Lulay's career two years earlier than it could have been although I would be surprised if he did not have other offers at the time he chose to retire.
Don Corleone
Well,they certainly knew it would be an issue going forward with two quarterbacks who are starter material and then some. They knew Adams was highly regarded leader by teammates. They knew it would likely cause a quarterback controversy for this season. Knew they could not keep both long-term.

As we know from past experience, most quarterback controversies are created or sustained or both by coaches and management. They can be very divisive for a team as they were for our Leos during the Dickenson and Printers quarterback controversy and Leo players also had splits with Pierce and Jackson and Lulay and Printers. Wally threw a heck of a lot of fuel on those controversies.

I recall Wally stating, before the West Final in 2005, that Dickenson and Printers would compete at practice during the two-week layoff and then he would name his starter. Throughout the season, Wally would not name his starter if both were healthy until Game Day. It kept the media happy, the fans and players split, and was very bad for team morale.

So, when Campbell said he would make his decision on who would be our starter going forward the rest of the way - Rourke or Adams, it reminded me of that similar scenario back in 2005, as well as the 2004 Grey Cup start.

This is a terrible way for Campbell to handle this situation. Its even dumber than his decision to pull Rourke at half time, after he had just led our Leos on a touchdown drive and capped the drive off himself with an excellent run into the end zone that showcased his speed. If scoring a touchdown, the last time one touched the football is not 'sparky;' what is? Had Campbell pulled Rourke in the first quarter or early in the third if he struggled again, then yes, that would at least be able to be justified or make some sense.

It does not matter how much Rourke and Adams publicly present their support of each other or get along, Just like us, Leo players will have preferences, based on skillsets or styles, personal relationships, loyalty, etc. etc.

The last thing that is needed is to stir this pot too often.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
TheLionKing
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Re: Leos Argos Post Game Thoughts

I would have liked to see Rourke a couple of series to begin the 3rd quarter. If he continues to struggle, then insert Adams.
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