Should CFL teams retire numbers of stars?

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Does it make sense for CFL teams continue to retire numbers?

Yes, every pro sport retires numbers why not let teams do what they want?
8
67%
No, as former stars get forgotten and no one can compare a 5 for a Kicker and say 'Big Lu would not have missed that.'
2
17%
Not sure
2
17%
Who cares? Football has a 100 numbers anyway (0 - 99)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 12
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Toppy Vann
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My own belief is that retiring numbers is not the best way to recognize and maintain the legacy of the player who used that number.
I believe though that most fans embrace retiring numbers but for fun what do others think or not think of this issue.
Here's the list of CFL retired numbers on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... gue%2Dwide.
99 in hockey was the one player who legitimized no one wearing his number ever in the NHL, yet does it matter? There are 100 numbers to chose from (0 to 99) and it happens infrequently.

Yet one ex-NFL player Michael Irvin on why he never wants to his number retired makes a good case IMO for no number to be retired.
Heard him on this topic more than once but more recently on Jimmy Kimmel.



Other clip on Irvin:



This guy nails one of the best reasons and uses the guy with his number now Cee Dee Lamb as an example. His name comes up every game that CeeDee Lamb excels in. If a BC place kicker risked Lui's no. 5, he'd get his name mentioned more.

Heard Irvin rank the guy with his number as the BEST 88 in Dallas Cowboys history!
Another one on Yahoo sports: Michael Irvin breaks down star receiver CeeDee Lamb

Keeps his name alive.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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B.C.FAN
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I don't care one way or another, but I think the Ring of Honour in the stadium carries more recognition than a retired number. The Lions have retired 10 numbers. That's a lot, when you consider each retired number means another number has to be duplicated when 100 players take to the field in training camp and preseason in search of a regular roster spot, and then some those players have to switch numbers when the regular season begins. It's tough to keep track when there are two players wearing the same number, especially on special teams when offensive and defensive players can be on the same unit.
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DanoT
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I'm with Irvin on this retiring numbers is counter productive. OTOH I didn't know Jim Brown had passed away in 2023 until I watched a Browns game on TSN and all the Browns players had a "32" patch on their jerseys.
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Robbie
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It's up to the franchise to make their own decisions on which players should have their numbers retired. And when they do so, they do so at their own risk with regards to:

1. Running out of eligible numbers for their current roster.
2. Controversy for "newer and better" players who should qualify.
3. If two good retired players happened to wear the same number, then if that number is retired who should it be for and is the other player disqualified or is co-number retiring allowed with examples below?

And its their own problem as to how to resolve the problem if they run out of numbers as they may have to put the numbers back into circulation.

And of course, there's definitely going to be controversy if you compare to a player who is considerably better than another player who already had his number retired. But from what I know....while I've heard cases in which a good, retired player complain about not being inducted into his league's hall of fame, I've never heard cases in which the player complain to his old team that his number be retired.

Regarding the 10 Lion players who are inducted into the Lions Ring of Honour, only one of them is a quarterback:

#22 - Joe Kapp

So by default, should these other Lion QB's who were just as famous, popular, and/or even better than Kapp also be inducted:

#9 - Roy Dewalt
#9 - Damon Allen
#12 - Dave Dickenson
#14 - Travis Lulay
#14 - Danny McManus

and even these short-term Most Outstanding Player Lion QB's:

#22 - Doug Flutie
#1 - Casey Printers

Joe Kapp himself as General Manager and President in 1990 un-retired his #22 to allow Doug Flutie to wear it during his two years as a Lion. So with that said, can there be co-retired numbers by having both Kapp and Doug Flutie in the Ring of Honour for #22, as well as Dewalt & Allen sharing #9 and Lulay & McManus sharing #14? I suppose this is a good compromise when applicable and you can kill two birds with one stone.

Below is a copy and paste of what I wrote about the Seattle Seahawks retired numbers in another thread. I'm sure both NFL and CFL teams face such an issue to an extent, especially if the franchise wasn't all that good in the past but already retired several numbers, and then if the team really improved then by default, all the newer good players should have their numbers retired as well.

--------------------------

As an aside, when a good player leaves a team through unfavourable circumstances, should they still be honoured by the team after the player retires?

The Seahawks have three QB's inducted in the Ring of Honor:

#10 - Jim Zorn (1976–1984)
#17 - Dave Krieg (1980–1991)
#8 - Matt Hasselbeck (2001–2010)

But #3 - Russell Wilson was still overall a heck of a lot better than all three QB's above. So by default, the Seahawks may be obligated to retire his #3.

The Seahawks also have three defensive players inducted:

#22 - Dave Brown (1976–1986)
#79 - Jacob Green (1980–1991)
#96 - Cortez Kennedy (1990–2000)

But then by default the Seahawks would be obligated to retire all the numbers that were part of the Legion of Boom in the 2010's.

Finally, the Seahawks also have retired two RB's:

#28 - Curt Warner (1983–1989)
#37 - Shaun Alexander (2000–2007)

So by default, the Seahawks are obligated to retire #24 - Marshawn Lynch.

The Seahawks will run out of numbers for their active players very soon! I guess they will have to compromise by indicating that despite a number being on the Ring of Honor, it will still be used in circulation for active players.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Hambone
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Montreal Canadiens retired Howie Morenz's #7 right after he died unexpectedly in mid season in 1937. They didn't retire another number until 1960 when they retired Rocket Richard's #9 upon his retirement.

As retiring numbers wasn't a common practice there until Rocket's multiple Hall of Famers have worn the same number. #5 has been retired for both Bernie Geoffrion and Guy Lapointe. #16 was first retired in honour of Henri Richard in 1975 then later again in 2009 for Elmer Lach. #12 was retired in 2005 in a double-ceremony for Dickie Moore and Yvan Cournoyer.

Boston Bruins have retired 12 numbers including 7 of 9 single digit numbers. Only #1 and #6 are still available in single digits.
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Sir Purrcival
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Just honor the player and his number. Retirement is necessary. Same effect and less juggling over time.
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cromartie
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Here's my opinion.

No Lion should ever wear #9 again. Or #5. I don't think there's an argument against that. These are Hall of Fame players wearing the number.

There is a transcendent level of performance over a sustained number of years that a player can provide that warrants the retirement of that number.

For everyone else, though, we can debate whether a Ring/Wall of Honor is enough. Let me give you an example.

This player was a Lion for a decade, started for a decade and won two Grey Cups. He was generally regarded as one of the best players in the league at his position for the bulk of his tenure. He never played for another CFL team. He is not in the CFLHOF.

Would you retire Dante Marsh's 31? Would you put him in a Ring/Wall of Honor? Would you argue that Jamie Taras played at a level of performance over a sustained number of years that justify a numeric retirement?

To pull from Baseball, the Detroit Tigers have a policy where, if you are a HOFer, they retire your number, and if you aren't, they don't.

There are two exceptions to that.

Lou Whitaker, who should be in the Hall of Fame and
Gates Brown, who is from Detroit and contributed an immense amount to the Detroit community.

But is HoF Membership a standard? If so, would you retire Les Browne's 00 considering his relatively short tenure?
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DanoT
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Cromartie, which #9 are you talking about, Roy Dewalt or Damon Allen? I favour Dewalt as I was never all that big of an Allen fan.

IMO, Allen's claim to fame was his super long career which enabled him to amass impressive career stats. But in reality, for most of his career there were other QBs who were better than Allen but didn't play for as many seasons.

Put guys in the Ring of Honour but keep numbers active so comparisons can be made between guys wearing the same #.
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Robbie
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DanoT wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:15 am
Cromartie, which #9 are you talking about, Roy Dewalt or Damon Allen? I favour Dewalt as I was never all that big of an Allen fan.

IMO, Allen's claim to fame was his super long career which enabled him to amass impressive career stats. But in reality, for most of his career there were other QBs who were better than Allen but didn't play for as many seasons.
That's the same question that I was about to ask for cromartie. Overall from a Lions fan perspective Roy Dewalt is much more popular than Damon Allen. However, cromartie mentioned that These are Hall of Fame players wearing the number and Allen is in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame while Roy Dewalt is not and it is unlikely that he will ever be inducted. So that statement implies that Allen is being referred to.

What can make decisions much more cloudier is if that good player also played AGAINST the Lions. Travis Lulay played as a Lion throughout this CFL career so he didn't play against the Lions, whereas Doug Flutie did. And for the most part Roy Dewalt played only as a Lion as his short stints in Winnipeg and Ottawa in 1988 before his retirement doesn't really count. Whereas Damon Allen certainly played against the Lions as well given how many teams he played, and the biggest example of him playing against the Lions is when he won the 2004 Grey Cup as an Argonaut AGAINST the Lions with his MVP performance.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie
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cromartie wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:19 am
For everyone else, though, we can debate whether a Ring/Wall of Honor is enough. Let me give you an example.

This player was a Lion for a decade, started for a decade and won two Grey Cups. He was generally regarded as one of the best players in the league at his position for the bulk of his tenure. He never played for another CFL team. He is not in the CFLHOF.

Would you retire Dante Marsh's 31? Would you put him in a Ring/Wall of Honor? Would you argue that Jamie Taras played at a level of performance over a sustained number of years that justify a numeric retirement?
I've mentioned before that when it comes to honouring a player, be it through the Wall of Fame or Ring of Honour, then longevity and seniority has a much bigger impact than his actual performance with the team.

That's why there are numerous short-term BC Lions who won league awards will likely NOT be honoured, just to name a few:

#1 - Casey Printers
#2 - David Williams
#22 - Doug Flutie
#91 - Cameron Wake

And even on the fence would be these two Lions who won MOP and who played more seasons as a Lion, but still didn't play at least 10+ seasons as a Lion which appears to be a rough standard and requirement these days:

#24 - Mervyn Fernandez (1982-86, 1994)
#56 - Solomon Elimimian (2010–11, 2012–18)
cromartie wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:19 am
To pull from Baseball, the Detroit Tigers have a policy where, if you are a HOFer, they retire your number, and if you aren't, they don't.

There are two exceptions to that.

Lou Whitaker, who should be in the Hall of Fame and
Gates Brown, who is from Detroit and contributed an immense amount to the Detroit community.

But is HoF Membership a standard? If so, would you retire Les Browne's 00 considering his relatively short tenure?
Certainly NOT. If that's the case then eventually ALL teams will run out of available numbers given the fact that there are definitely players who had an extremely short stint with that team but are inducted in the hall of fame because they did well for other teams.

I mentioned this before and I'll mention it again in that one controversial aspect about the National Baseball Hall of Fame induction plaque is that the inducted person is depicted wearing a hat showing a particular team and that is what makes it controversial as that player or its fans may feel it's better if he's wearing a hat of another team. What I like about the other professional sports hall of fame organizations is that their induction may include a writeup about that player and the teams that he played in, but there's no direct sports team connection to that player unlike in baseball.

This is the induction bust of Doug Flutie in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame, and there's no helmet, uniform, or even a writeup to suggest a connection with him to the Lions, Stampeders, or Argonauts.

Image


But on the contrary in late October 1992 the most beloved man in Toronto and all of Canada for that matter would be Dave Winfield when he hit the World Series winning hit and that was also his only World Series win in his long MLB career and was also his only season with the Blue Jays. So with that said, will the Blue Jays retire his #32? No way. And did his Baseball Hall of Fame plaque show him wearing a Blue Jays hat to make a connection with that team? No. He's wearing that of the San Diego Padres.

Image
Last edited by Robbie on Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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cromartie
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DanoT wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:15 am
Cromartie, which #9 are you talking about, Roy Dewalt or Damon Allen? I favour Dewalt as I was never all that big of an Allen fan.

IMO, Allen's claim to fame was his super long career which enabled him to amass impressive career stats. But in reality, for most of his career there were other QBs who were better than Allen but didn't play for as many seasons.

Put guys in the Ring of Honour but keep numbers active so comparisons can be made between guys wearing the same #.
#9 should be retired for both players. There’s nothing wrong with retiring it twice. You could argue Baron Miles is in that conversation as well. There’s nothing wrong with saying ‘these three HOFers individually have a body of work that warrants retiring the number.

I think the Detroit Tigers philosophy is almost the right one. Again, using the HOF or ‘should be HOF with a long tenure as the standard for retirement, the Tigers retired Sparky Anderson’s #11. But I’d argue that like Lou Whitaker it should be ‘retired’ a second time for Bill Freehan, a Detroit native who was an 11 time all star with 6 gold gloves.

There is a standard, to me, for retiring numbers.

HOF would seem to be the minimum but that player should also have significant tenure with the club and ideally won at least one championship.

Alternately, that player can have significant individual achievement and be from the community and contribute to the community.

If a number is being retired for one player, to me it gives you license to also retire it for others. Between Allen, DeWalt, and Miles, there’s enough justification to put #9 up on the wall and it should not be worn again.

I wouldn’t retire Dante Marsh’s number but he is a wall of honor guy for me: same with Ryan Phillips.
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DanoT
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Tenure as a qualification for honouring a player be it Hof, # retired, Ring of Honour, is a tricky one with the CFL. Cam Wake only played 3 years in the CFL before having a stellar NFL Career. Mervyn Fernandez only played 5 years in the CFL before heading to the NFL, and 6 stellar NFL seasons. Warren Moon had 6 CFL seasons ( some as a backup) before 17 NFL seasons resulted in entry to the NFL HoF.
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Robbie
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Or how about following the Edmonton Elks policy with their many players inducted to their Wall of Honour. With their great history, there are lots of players inducted however it was agreed that the Elks keep the numbers in circulation rather than retire them from use.

These are the numbers and their players that have been honoured by the Elks and at 35, that's a heck of a lot more than the Lions 10 on their own Ring of Honour.

1 Warren Moon (2001)
2 Henry "Gizmo" Williams (2002)
3 Terry Vaughn (2023)
11 Canada Sean Fleming (2011)
12 Tom Wilkinson (1982)
13 Larry Highbaugh (1996)
14 Canada Oscar Kruger (1992)
15 Ricky Ray (2019)
22 Tom Scott (1993)
24 Johnny Bright (1983)
24 Ed Jones (2022)
25 Jim Germany (2022)
26 Canada Dave Cutler (1986)
27 Canada Don Getty (1992)
29 Joe Hollimon (2022)
30 Danny Bass (1992)
39 Willie Pless (2004)
42 Danny Kepley (1987)
47 Canada Larry Wruck (2011)
51 Frank "Guts" Anderson[a] (1985)
53 Canada Frank Morris (1984)
55 Ron Estay (2010)
60 Canada Chris Morris (2008)
62 Canada Bill Stevenson[a] (2014)
63 Canada Hector Pothier (2014)
65 Canada Dave Fennell (1984)
66 Roger Nelson (1987)
66 John LaGrone (1988)
67 Canada Rod Connop (2005)
70 Brian Kelly (1989)
76 George McGowan (1985)
77 Canada Tommy Joe Coffey (1988)
91 Jackie Parker (1983)
94 Rollie Miles (1983)
95 Canada Norman Kwong (1984)
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie
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DanoT wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:31 pm
Tenure as a qualification for honouring a player be it Hof, # retired, Ring of Honour, is a tricky one with the CFL. Cam Wake only played 3 years in the CFL before having a stellar NFL Career. Mervyn Fernandez only played 5 years in the CFL before heading to the NFL, and 6 stellar NFL seasons. Warren Moon had 6 CFL seasons ( some as a backup) before 17 NFL seasons resulted in entry to the NFL HoF.
There's always a fair amount of debate when it comes to honouring a player when there are two variables: Tenure vs. Performance.

An interesting comparison is if you consider a CFL player has been honoured by the league by winning Most Outstanding Player and inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame but has NOT been honoured by any his individual teams by having his name and number retired. This occurs if the player while good was very nomadic and would change teams often so he didn't establish a strong tenure with his team.

Checking out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... ed_numbers

and cross-referencing good HOF/MOP players, here is a list of players who belong in this group:

Damon Allen #9
Doug Flutie (in his case, he wore #22 then #20 and eventually #2 in his three teams)
Matt Dunigan #16
David Williams
Henry Burris
Tracy Ham
Tom Clements
Danny McManus
Dieter Brock
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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cromartie
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This is a great great great topic. And this post is a bit of a repeat but I hope it brings some more things into focus.

Here are seven questions that are asked in the evaluation process of whether or not to retire a number:

1) Are they a Hall of Famer?
2) Did they help a team win a championship?
3) Do they meet a longevity threshold for tenure with the team?
4) Did they have significant statistical/award based achievements with the team?
5) Are they from, or did they make a significant contribution to the community?
6) Was there some sort of tragedy?
7) Can I piggyback that retirement in on someone else?

Unless you're an absolutist, you can use this criteria to determine when you get enough Yes answers to justify a number retirement, I think. You don't have to weigh these questions equally, either. But, to me, there is clearly a threshold here to justify circumstances under which a number is retired.
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