CFL/CFLPA Labour Negotiations -- Deal reached

[DanoT]

A major problem in our society is that during the last 2 decades or so the tables have been turned such that executives, coaches and so forth are getting the big bucks and the players who are actually performing and have the athletic skill are being paid less and receiving mediocre care and benefits . The CFL has become an executive and coaches league - a cash cow for them at the expense of the players. No players playing means no more big bucks for the execs - just their golden parachutes. The players do have clout - the executives and coaches don't want to lose their overpaid salaries!

But this is happening and has happened now for some time in all the major North American leagues. A major revolution is required, but unfortunately I don't thing the CFL players are in a position to initiate the coup, although I admire these players very, very much.

I recommend all posters on this forum read Gregg Easterbrook's book, The King of Sports: Football's Impact on America, a must read book for football enthusiasts. It paints a bleak picture of football, and I agree wih Mr. Easterbrook on every provocative point he brings up - the latest being the scandal (including addiction ) to painkilling drugs and other remedies by teams. In one sense, we are lucky to be in Canada and have the CFL.

I always thought that CFL coaching staffs were under maned, overworked, and underpaid. So thanks for clearing that up for me....um... how about coming up with some numbers from some teams to back up your claims and how you got the numbers just so we know that you don't need some of this:

[Toppy Vann]

A major problem in our society is that during the last 2 decades or so the tables have been turned such that executives, coaches and so forth are getting the big bucks and the players who are actually performing and have the athletic skill are being paid less and receiving mediocre care and benefits . The CFL has become an executive and coaches league - a cash cow for them at the expense of the players. No players playing means no more big bucks for the execs - just their golden parachutes. The players do have clout - the executives and coaches don't want to lose their overpaid salaries!

But this is happening and has happened now for some time in all the major North American leagues. A major revolution is required, but unfortunately I don't thing the CFL players are in a position to initiate the coup, although I admire these players very, very much.

I recommend all posters on this forum read Gregg Easterbrook's book, The King of Sports: Football's Impact on America, a must read book for football enthusiasts. It paints a bleak picture of football, and I agree wih Mr. Easterbrook on every provocative point he brings up - the latest being the scandal (including addiction ) to painkilling drugs and other remedies by teams. In one sense, we are lucky to be in Canada and have the CFL.

I think the opening line here is true. Execs in sports like those in business have taken entitlement thinking to levels never before imaginable. They used to claim unions had a sense of entitlement but those that might have (in my view it was not true) are small potatoes next to the greed we see today in C-suites globally. The pay differential between top and bottom today is light years different. There is little loyalty to employees these days and it's a profit, share price view only of the world the like of which would make Peter Drucker and those like him turn over in their graves.

The CFL players are using this same mantra now that the CFL is becoming about the GMs and coaches. This mantra could help gel the players - albeit - as they are still not all together it is more difficult.

Ed Molstad is leading these guys and he's a seasoned, smart veteran who knows that the players must look and talk reasonably and I think they are. But when the issues get muddied in a labour negotiation and both sides dig in that is when these things never settle early.

If you have a clear economic difference in a bargaining process it is much easier to settle.

But if you get sides dug in and issues not clear it gets ugly and will have lingering problems.

I feel a bit for Cohon as his communication was not doubt ordered by the owners but that could hurt him with players and be an embarrassment later on if players focus on him as a bad guy.

That the PA had to reach out to bargain and the owners just dug in and ended discussions suggests a bit that the players realize fans won't rally for them. The irony is how today the public always sides with owners against the greedy workers whether it is the restaurant staff or janitors.

I served in a time where we wanted our workers to be as well paid as possible and we tracked and maintained the relationships between non-managers and managers. I see that same old firm today with greedy execs has long abandoned those principles. It's the time we are in where everybody's doing it and they claim that they have to do this to retain top talent. It is insane and guys like Warren Buffett prove they are wrong in their businesses.

[ballhawk]

So DanoT, how much do you think John Hufnagel gets paid, for example. $45,000; $60,000; or how about the CFL player average $82,000. Just wondering. HUfnagel's a hard-working and good coach (as all the coaches are), but I think the players should be paid more - they're the athletes, we watch them. I think $80,000 would be a fair salary for Hufnagel, don't you think.

[South Pender]

A major problem in our society is that during the last 2 decades or so the tables have been turned such that executives, coaches and so forth are getting the big bucks and the players who are actually performing and have the athletic skill are being paid less and receiving mediocre care and benefits . The CFL has become an executive and coaches league - a cash cow for them at the expense of the players. No players playing means no more big bucks for the execs - just their golden parachutes. The players do have clout - the executives and coaches don't want to lose their overpaid salaries!

But this is happening and has happened now for some time in all the major North American leagues. A major revolution is required, but unfortunately I don't thing the CFL players are in a position to initiate the coup, although I admire these players very, very much.

I recommend all posters on this forum read Gregg Easterbrook's book, The King of Sports: Football's Impact on America, a must read book for football enthusiasts. It paints a bleak picture of football, and I agree wih Mr. Easterbrook on every provocative point he brings up - the latest being the scandal (including addiction ) to painkilling drugs and other remedies by teams. In one sense, we are lucky to be in Canada and have the CFL.

It's interesting that you'd say this, ballhawk. Until very recently, a big problem in the NFL was that the top players were earning much, much more than their coaches. As a result, the coaches lost respect and authority with some of the players. The problem has been rectified to some extent over the past decade, but the very best current coaches--Belichick, Payton, Carroll--are earning about one-third of what their quarterbacks are getting (Russell being the one exception b/c he's still on his rookie contract, but that, of course, will change next year). Richard Sherman, a cornerback, is now making about twice what his coach is making with his (Sherman's) new close-to-$15M/year contract. The average NFL coach salary as of 2014 is $4.6M (see link below), while many of their players make twice, three-times, or five-times that.

http://coacheshotseat.com/NFLCoachesSalaries.htm

In other pro sports, the disparity is even greater. The NBA has the highest pro sports players' salaries, with an average of $5.15M/year. On the other hand, the average NBA coach salary is $3.4M, not exactly chump change, but considerably less than what the players get.

In the CFL, the average player salary could be estimated by taking the $4.4M cap and dividing by 53 players, arriving at about $83K per year. Coaches' salaries are not made public, but, on average, most teams spend about $2M for their GM, HC, and all coaches combined. I once read that John Hufnagel was being paid around $700K, but he's carrying two jobs--really a full-year job, not a 5-6-month job like that of the players, and Huf is a senior guy and probably the top GM/HC in the game. You can be sure that Mike Benevides is not making anything like that, and I would expect that he's making less than his starting quarterback despite the fact that his is a 12-hour a day, 7-days a week job for most of the season, and continues on into the off-season.

So it seems to me that you might want to reconsider your position on this....

[ballhawk]

I don't want to get into a discussion so much what the HC coaches make compared to the players. The coaches should be paid well, no doubt, but even in Hufnagel's case, in the CFL, $700,000 is excessive and way over the top. His salary is taken of of some CFL pool of funds. I would think he would be paid well in the CFL, but not more than Lulay and other top players in the CFL. Sure he works and and long, but he is not the athlete. I think there's a belief by some (many) that the coaches, staff, and CFL executive are more valuable than the players (employees). Where's the line? It's OK to pay players a minimum of $45,000 in the CFL but GMs and white-shirt-and-tie types must have 6 figure salaries. I guess they are so important compared to players in the League. To the owners and their business models they see these 'executives' as essential to their profitability. The players are the pawns (the workers, the entertainers, the athletes, and the guys who lay them themselves on the line).

So how much should Cohon be paid? How about Michael Copeland? Jim Barker? Important? More important than the players? Way more important than the CFL players I guess.

[South Pender]

I don't want to get into a discussion so much what the HC coaches make compared to the players. The coaches should be paid well, no doubt, but even in Hufnagel's case, in the CFL, $700,000 is excessive and way over the top. His salary is taken of of some CFL pool of funds. I would think he would be paid well in the CFL, but not more than Lulay and other top players in the CFL. Sure he works and and long, but he is not the athlete. I think there's a belief by some (many) that the coaches, staff, and CFL executive are more valuable than the players (employees). Where's the line? It's OK to pay players a minimum of $45,000 in the CFL but GMs and white-shirt-and-tie types must have 6 figure salaries. I guess they are so important compared to players in the League. To the owners and their business models they see these 'executives' as essential to their profitability. The players are the pawns (the workers, the entertainers, the athletes, and the guys who lay them themselves on the line).

So how much should Cohon be paid? How about Michael Copeland? Jim Barker? Important? More important than the players? Way more important than the CFL players I guess.

It depends on how you define "important." Can a team win without a head coach who is willing to put in completely unheard-of hours during the season--12 or more-hour days, 7 days a week--and well into the off-season? Probably not. Can a team win without a particular player? Of course. The coaches have paid their dues. They've been players and have honed their knowledge to a higher level than that of the players. And yet many of them very likely make the same, or perhaps less, than does the average player in the CFL--certainly in the NFL and the NBA, as well as MLB and the NHL. Should the rookie fresh out of college or junior ball make the same salary as a seasoned coach with 10 years of playing time and another 5-10 coaching? Surely not, and yet that seems to be what you're suggesting.

And if you want to include the owners in your group of "white-shirt-and-tie" group, the consensus has been that in the CFL, they're lucky to be making any profit, and many have suffered losses, while the players have had a steady paycheque--with many in the six-figure category you have reserved for executives and coaches. In fact, I'd guess that every CFL team has several players making more than their team's coordinators and position coaches. Can you have a league without the owners? The answer is obvious. So let's not begrudge them a little of the profits. Back to coaches and GMs: Hasn't Calgary's success resulted more from John Hufnagel's contributions than that of any player? Of course. And here's a guy who carries the burden of both jobs, GM and HC and probably works 11 months of the year. I for one don't think he's overpaid. $700K is peanuts when compared with what less-successful GM/HCs in all other pro sports leagues make. If you add GM Buono's and HC Benevides' salaries together, the total probably isn't that much different than Huf's. The fact is that no one working in the CFL is getting rich--GMs, HCs, lower-level coaches, or players. And I have a hard time believing that the gap between player and coach/executive is excessive.

Toppy Vann has identified an unfortunate truth in his noting of the unconscionable income gap that has developed over the past two to three decades between ordinary workers and executives in the business world. CEOs making $10M a year, along with stock and other benefits and generous payouts when they fail (perhaps a twenty-fold increase over the past 30 years), while the average workers' wages have stagnated in terms of buying power and remain, in real dollars, at 1980 levels. The gap between rich and poor has never been greater than it is now in the U.S., and it's a phenomenon that seriously threatens the continuation of the country's middle class, and is now greatly worrying economists and policy-wonks. In my view, however--and I guess this is really my point--this phenomenon does not really extend to pro sports, where top workers (star players) are making many times more than the top executives (GMs, coaches, and all team executives).

[WestCoastJoe]

A lot of factors involved here, ballhawk.

Supply and demand most importantly.

I think it is somewhat obscene that entertainers (actors, musicians, etc.) get paid so much. But that is what the market wants to pay them.

A woman raising kids on her own should get paid for her work with her children IMO. But she has to go out to work as well as tend her kids somehow.

Compared to most workers, even CFL players are nicely compensated for their 6 months of work.

The assistant coaches work crazy hours, with huge stress, and no security, and relatively low pay.

Owners of football teams know how important the GM and HC are to the success of their teams. They pay accordingly. In most cases, I would expect that top QBs make more than the GM and HC. And that is relatively fair also IMO. The QB is the leader on the field.

Personally I think the payscales in the CFL are not out of whack. They are all getting paid what the market will bear. The employees are getting what the owners will pay for jobs that demand competiveness and performance.
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Good points, SP.
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Re this thread ... I think the negotiations are unfolding as one might have expected, although surprises could still happen. The CFLPA may have overestimated the strength of its position, and the limitations of what the owners will bear. They might be recognizing that now. A key to the strength or weakness of the league is the quality and commitment of the owners. And our league is vulnerable there. A strike would be devastating. If the season were cancelled, I could see an owner or two walking away from the mess.

[Shi Zi Mi]

With all due respect to Braley, Young and Wettenhal and their many years of keeping the CFL alive, the most important owner right now is MLSE. In order for the CFL to truly become stable (for lack of a better term) is for the Toronto franchise to become profitable.....and you're not going to find a "deeper pocketed" owner who's willing to put money into a stadium (BMO) that gives the Argos the best chance of flourishing in the Toronto market.

IMHO, MLSE is the owner that the players need to insure that they don't alienate.....I believe the deal between Braley and MLSE is fait accompli.....with the only obstacle being the possibility of a work stoppage by the players.

I hope the players and their union can see the big picture in this......true, they have the best bargaining position in the history of the CFLPA......but with new/expanded stadiums in Ottawa, Hamilton and Toronto, there's a very real possibility that all 9 teams will be profitable within 3 years......and revenue sharing would be more feasible at that time than in 2014.

[David]

I agree. I think a very big part of the impasse is the league wanting to make the Argos' picture look as rosy as possible for potential new owner(s).

I wonder if the players could live with say, a new 3 year deal without revenue sharing tied to deal, but a guarantee from the owners that it will be in some form for their next contract? This way we can see who's doing what with 3 years of the new TV deal under way.


DH

[Shi Zi Mi]

IMHO, MLSE is the owner that the players need to insure that they don't alienate.....I believe the deal between Braley and MLSE is fait accompli.....with the only obstacle being the possibility of a work stoppage by the players.
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And then this.....

News1130 Sports ‏@News1130Sports 30m

The sale of the #Argos most likely will not happen this season.

That talk is that the re-construction of BMO Field will happen in 3 phases.

#Argos owner David Braley can't sell the team till he has a new stadium.

[Hambone]

IMHO, MLSE is the owner that the players need to insure that they don't alienate.....I believe the deal between Braley and MLSE is fait accompli.....with the only obstacle being the possibility of a work stoppage by the players.
.

And then this.....

News1130 Sports ‏@News1130Sports 30m

The sale of the #Argos most likely will not happen this season.

That talk is that the re-construction of BMO Field will happen in 3 phases.

#Argos owner David Braley can't sell the team till he has a new stadium.

My feeling is Braley won't sell the team until something is in place for a new stadium. The reality is the sale price he might realize is tied directly to the stadium situation. IMO if MLSE comes to an agreement to renovate BMO to accomodate CFL football the Argos immediately become worth several million $ more. As operator of BMO there is incentive for MLSE to promote any renovation that might expand its use. The more BMO is used the more revenue MLSE can generate as operator. In that regard they don't have to necessarily own the Argos but it certainly helps their bottom line if they can attract another tenant for 10+ dates per year. There's a bit of chicken an egg thing here but definitely it's in Braley's best interest that a BMO renovation be committed to before he sells the Boatmen.

[JohnHenry]

So DanoT, how much do you think John Hufnagel gets paid, for example. $45,000; $60,000; or how about the CFL player average $82,000. Just wondering. HUfnagel's a hard-working and good coach (as all the coaches are), but I think the players should be paid more - they're the athletes, we watch them. I think $80,000 would be a fair salary for Hufnagel, don't you think.

The difference is you can't just go out and find another Hufnagel for $82,000 or for even $500,000. But you could go to any state in the Union and find a dozen or so good football players who are willing to sign for peanuts to extend their football careers. So to say players should always be paid more does not reflect the reality of supply and demand. That's why we have a free market system which allows workers to be paid what they're worth.

[notahomer]

I still think Buono deserves some credit for his comments yesterday at the ST holder Kickoff in regards to the labour negotiations.

He made it VERY CLEAR that he wanted to honour the investment the BC Lions players in attendence had made by showing up yesterday. Now it is obvious that in the long run it is in EVERYONES best interest to keep the fans happy BUT, the CFL players certainly have a right to be wary of things considering the current labour negotiations. The players would have been well within their rights to say "FORGET IT" but they didn't. They showed up and gave of their time and energy to make the start of this season a nice one.

I hope their optimism was on track. I have to admit, I'm not so sure I would have attended had I been in their shoes.

[DanoT]

I still think Buono deserves some credit for his comments yesterday at the ST holder Kickoff in regards to the labour negotiations.

He made it VERY CLEAR that he wanted to honour the investment the BC Lions players in attendence had made by showing up yesterday. Now it is obvious that in the long run it is in EVERYONES best interest to keep the fans happy BUT, the CFL players certainly have a right to be wary of things considering the current labour negotiations. The players would have been well within their rights to say "FORGET IT" but they didn't. They showed up and gave of their time and energy to make the start of this season a nice one.

I hope their optimism was on track. I have to admit, I'm not so sure I would have attended had I been in their shoes.

Hopefully the players showing up for the event is an omen that a quick settlement is in the cards. So, good on the players for showing up and good on management for acknowledging it and thanking them.

[Toppy Vann]

Both sides have been advised as how to act here.

They have to suck it up, smile, be there and present a happy front to the fans who buy the tickets and make the TV product as valuable as it has become. They'd be foolish to take out their anger at the owners and the Commissioner on fans who they hope will be on their side. Sadly I don't think fans will support them as fans will simplify as they have now to 3 things:
. historical instability of CFL teams
- revenue sharing is wrong for CFL
- players are doing fine now -take a raise and get on with it.

Players as John Henry noted are a dime a dozen and it's not lost on astute imports (go back to Darren Flutie days as a rep who made that point to his colleagues) that without the ratio of imports to non-imports salaries in the CFL would be significantly lower. It's the Canadian scarcity and the crucial nature of having the BEST Canadians NIs that can be a critical determinant in winning or losing and these players keep salaries up (factoring out the QBs and some NI stars).

I can't see how the next meeting will be any different than the last one. Owners won't discuss rev. sharing and players rejected owners proposal earlier. Certainly the owners aren't giving a message that they will try to reach common ground.

The owners must have loved BC Lion Harris' tweet of greed and hope that players need to play as they need and or want the money now and with short careers - won't strike.

It is hard to get all union members onside at the best of times - the players might be even more of a challenge as not all players are on top economic grounds.