The Old 4 Discussion

[Rammer]

Wally is on record suggesting that he is going to have some difficult discussions this off season. You have to think that the Lions senior group of 4 will be at that table. Simon 37, Bruce 35, McCallum 42 and Reid 36 have all had solid careers and the Lions either have solid backups or in Reid's case, the body hitting the odometer limit.

[Toppy Vann]

No doubt some might be an issue but hopefully this discussion by the Lions is starting too soon or they might get their players focused on the wrong thing and not a GC run. Todays cutting of K. Johnson has to be a bit unsettling as this guy was looking good and a coach's favourite - not too long ago.

[SammyGreene]

Read that comment too Rammer. Geez Wally, I know he can be very candid at times but don't know if it's the right time to be talking about some potential significant changes with the biggest games of the season still to play. Especially during a hockey lockout where these type of comments would normally not be analyzed as much. That's what the 6 month off-season is for.

Johnson's sudden release and now hints of some big time veteran players possibly being on the way out. They need to be careful with team chemistry.

[MexicoLionFan]

So true Rammer...of the 4, it is actually Reid that might have the best shot to stick because we have developed NO ONE to replace him...and no one call tell me that Valli or Baboulas are ready or capable to take over.

As sad as it is to say it, the Lions are miles faster, bigger, stronger and CHEAPER with Gore, Foster, Iannuzzi, Moore, Taylor and Jackson...at this point, to put that money into Geroy and Arland is a tough proposition, and we all know what Geroy Simon has meant to this franchise...

But Wally needs to make these moves, and this coming season...there is talent here that simply cannot be asked to sit for yet another year...and that's on both sides of the ball...our secondary, as good as they are, MUST get younger...and we have at least 3 DBs that are good enough to start now...

Finally, the major overhaul has to be the OLine...the inside 3 are a mess...I don't know if we will get cheaper here or not, we just have to get better and deeper at any cost...

And then there's Travis...more money, more years...

[Blue In BC]

Add Marsh, Banks, Phillips, Parker to the list of guys that might not be back. Age and SMS considerations are going to impact players such as these as others will expect to get raises ( Lulay for one ).

[JohnHenry]

I disagree. We could afford these players last year and this year, what's so different about next year? We looked for years for a matching receiver to Geroy, now that we have Arland we want to get rid of him? I didn't see any drop-off in his play. Moore isn't half the receiver that Geroy or Arland is, so I wouldn't be too anxious to get rid of our proven performers...guys we've won the Cup with and who can still make the tough catches. So what they get paid a lot, they earned it and the Lions going to spend to the SMS limit on one player or another anyways. Geroy may have lost a bit of his burst of speed but his hands are still good...so that still puts him ahead of many of our prospects.

Ditto the secondary. So what these guys are in their 30's, I don't see much dropoff in their play. It's not like they're getting burned routinely. Last time I checked we had the best defence in the league? Perhaps we could groom a younger guy to replace #28, whom I not that big of fan. The rest of the guys are keepers for a couple more years at least.

Now the OL, that's an area we could invest in...but until we find somebody better, Reid and Valli are keepers.

Perhaps we could bring in a new punter to help out MacCallum.

Travis didn't get much of a raise from last year. Perhaps we could sign him to another 1 year extension with a modest increase? We could also offer Reilly a one-year extension. He might opt to stay in the Pacific N/W and bide his time until Travis decides his future...rather than compete for the starting job in Wpg or some other QB-killing team.

[Blue In BC]

It's all a matter of SMS issues and age. At some point older players get traded, released or retire. The Lions have had some great stability and are currently a very good team. Staying at the top is not a given season to season.

The Lions will want to extend some players and that has an impact on the overall SMS.

I don't know who makes what or what their current contract status is at the moment. All I'm saying is that a player such as Simon is probably in the area where his age and SMS hit comes into play. Sure he can still play and be productive. The same is true for some other older players.

It's a question of who is up and coming and how to deal with limited CFL roster size and SMS. I have to believe there will be current players that will earn more in 2013 than in 2012. That money will have to be trimmed from somewhere.

The first player that comes to mind is Lulay being looked at to a longer more expensive deal. Just for argument's sake, let's say he gets another $100K a season to extend for a deal keeping him in Vancouver through 2016.

Perhaps Reilly gets more as well to continue his development here and secure what appears to be good depth at QB.

Teams go through this every season. Good players depart for one reason or another. After two years of a fairly stable roster, I'd expect a few changes. Might depend on free agency and whether the Lions go after anybody such as a top NI OL?

[Hambone]

I'd be willing to wager at most 1 of those names will be back next year and I'd probably want odds. I'm all for loyalty but that doesn't guarantee success. A good many teams have fallen quickly from grace by hanging on to too many cherished veterans too long. There is a very fine line between a veteran laden team and one that is simply old. None of those names have upside left in their game, only downside. None will ever be able to play to the level that they did even two years ago. The unfortunate thing is that once players start that downslide at the end of their careers it usually accelerates one year to the next. Even if they still look effective at the end of one season they can show up to camp the following year playing like they aged 3 years in one offseason and suddenly the team is scrambling to replace them either during camp or early in the season.

One of the big parts of Buono's success has been his ability to make those difficult decisions a year early as opposed to a year too late. Geroy would be the most difficult conversation. However with such a promising stable of young receivers it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Buono entice him into retirement with the offer of a job as Receivers Coach. Angus I think will retire without being pushed. He seems to be positioning himself for life in media after football. As a player who has only been here 2 years it won't be difficult to simply release Bruce. Like Reid it may be McCallum is ready to go on his own accord making room for O'Neill. While still fairly effective there are enough signs of decline in his game that its time and hopefully he departs on his own terms. I'm sure for all 4 a second Grey Cup in 2 years might be the motivation to depart on top. For any GM you always hope the player makes the decision first.

[Blitz]

So true Rammer...of the 4, it is actually Reid that might have the best shot to stick because we have developed NO ONE to replace him...and no one call tell me that Valli or Baboulas are ready or capable to take over.

As sad as it is to say it, the Lions are miles faster, bigger, stronger and CHEAPER with Gore, Foster, Iannuzzi, Moore, Taylor and Jackson...at this point, to put that money into Geroy and Arland is a tough proposition, and we all know what Geroy Simon has meant to this franchise...

But Wally needs to make these moves, and this coming season...there is talent here that simply cannot be asked to sit for yet another year...and that's on both sides of the ball...our secondary, as good as they are, MUST get younger...and we have at least 3 DBs that are good enough to start now...

Finally, the major overhaul has to be the OLine...the inside 3 are a mess...I don't know if we will get cheaper here or not, we just have to get better and deeper at any cost...

I think its a challenging situation. Lulay wil command more money and if we win a Grey Cup so will others.And then there's Travis...more money, more years...

I think on defense we are still fine with Marsh and Banks.

However, on offence, as you note, we have challenges.

Could we get another decent season out of Simon and Bruce. Yes we could but does that mean we would be able
to keep Moore and Taylor on the bench for another season or should we. There is a cost to Simon and Bruce, both in terms of money due to their high salaries and in inside speed due to their age. Simon will be the toughest of the two. He still wants to break records, he still loves the game and wants to play two or three more seasons, and he makes a lot more money playing that he will going into the work force. He won't retire on his own.

The interior of our line also is a problem and we will need to sign a non-import free agent or two. We do not have at present a succession plan for Reid. There was an argument on the sidelines as to whether Valli should go in when Reid got hurt a few games back or whether we should go with Baboulas. We put binder twine on Angus and threw him in there for the second half of the game, when we should not have. Reid does not get push and his major advantage is his experience and knowledge making the blocking calls. Valli is not good enough but we may be stuck with him. Norman will likely start next year. Right now its a problem and it shouldn't be. Heck, Winnipeg trained Sorenson as a center and he is doing a decent job.

In terms of leadership, with guys like Lulay, McKenzie, Banks, Keron Williams, etc. we have leadership and others like Bighill and Harris will be ready to take a step up. Teams need to get younger. Take a look at our first champion B.C. Lions. They were excellent in 1963, went to the Grey Cup, had a phenomenal season in 1964, with the best defense we have ever had, won the Grey Cup, and with the same guys fell off the map in 1965.

You don't keep on winning by always staying with the same guys.

[TheLionKing]

Good discussion. Teams (even defending champions) always need to strive to improve themselves. In many cases it means getting rid of older players to bring in new blood. Lions have a plethora of talented players in their stables that they need to find room for. Sam Pollack the architect of the Canadiens' dynasty years have said they need to turn over their players 10% every year to keep winning. Young talented players such as Moore, Jackson etc. aren't going to sit around and wait for their opportunities forever. They have proven they can play. If not here in BC then somewhere else. So when Geroy, Arland and others finally calls it a career we would have to go out and recruit new players.

[cromartie]

We had another thread on this same topic where the general consensus was let's not ruin the good juju by pushing guys out the exit while they're still competing for a Grey Cup. A rule that should probably be applied to Wally as well.

[cromartie]

So now that the season is over, I suppose it's open season on determining who is likely to be back and who isn't. Thoughts?

[WestCoastJoe]

Comes a time when you have to move on.

All four mentioned by Rammer need to look at transition. Injuries. Losing speed. Can't get separation. Can't get deep. For 64, can't match up physically. For PMc ... why keep a first round pick without giving him a chance, for two years?

Plus, sad to say, I think we need to move on from Dean Valli. How? Dunno, we are so thin in the O Line. But he is about useless. Sorry to say that. And this is especially tough since JonHR and Newman may well retire early. Need to pick up some serviceable free agents methinks. And I know this will sound mean or cruel, but it might be time for Dan Dorazio to transition also.

[lion24]

It kills me to say it but Simon and Bruce probably need to go in favour of the young receivers. I believe the Lions were at their best on offense when all the young guys were filling in. Bruce was a great addition last season and Simon is a legend but at some point you need to move ahead. I also believe McCallum can no longer be relied on as a punter and do we have room for two kickers? Tough loss tonight but I think we were exposed in many ways today. I would also like to see a dominant safety in the defense and I am not sure Muamba is the answer.

[cromartie]

Comes a time when you have to move on.

All four mentioned by Rammer need to look at transition. Injuries. Losing speed. Can't get separation. Can't get deep. For 64, can't match up physically. For PMc ... why keep a first round pick without giving him a chance, for two years?

Plus, sad to say, I think we need to move on from Dean Valli. How? Dunno, we are so thin in the O Line. But he is about useless. Sorry to say that. And this is especially tough since JonHR and Newman may well retire early. Need to pick up some serviceable free agents methinks. And I know this will sound mean or cruel, but it might be time for Dan Dorazio to transition also.

I suppose it's my current state of mind. But if you're really going to wipe the slate clean, you sweep out all four, figure Newman will retire, Mitchell will be released, Hamster may retire and Reilly is a free agent. You'd like to do better than Valli, also. Reddick is a FA. Paris Jackson is getting long in the tooth. Muamba hurts us in critical situations.

The more interesting question is, what to do with the secondary?