Lionbackers.com

This has kinda been on my mind for a while now so I guess i'll vent here (where else right?..)

A while back my brother and I were watching a Miami Dolphins game and WR Davone Bess (rookie out of Hawaii, and former teamate of Grice-Mullen's) had a nice 50 yard catch and run. Upon the completion of this play my brother turned to me and asked "How much better do you think Davone Bess is compared to R G-M." Well i sort of wanted to snap back and say something along the lines of "what makes you say that?"... instead, I regretfully replied "I dunno, probably a bit better," deep down knowing Bess got a little bit of luck and had the right tryout at the right time with the Dolphins.
Anyways, the next day I took it upon myself to do a little research and compare these two standouts from Hawaii...

Here are Grice-Mullen's workout numbers from the '08 combine:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=WR

and Bess's workout numbers:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=WR

These numbers show Grice-Mullen beating Bess in the 10 yard, 20 yard, 40 yard dashes, bench press, 20 yard shuttle and 3 cone drill, with Bess coming out on top in only the vert. jump. (Both Bess and R G-M were expected to be drafted in as high as the 5th round.. both went undrafted)

I guess the point of this thread is that it just goes to show how fine a line there is between playing in the CFL and NFL. It takes one good tryout at the right time (Bess with the Dolphins who are thin at receiver), and one mediocre tryout to not get looked at again down there. It's sad really, but I guess that's the way she goes.
Secondly, it occured to me that people see someone in an NFL uniform and just automatically assume he's better than someone playing up here. The line is so fine between playing in the CFL and NFL (obv us diehards know this, and not enough of the general public does IMO), and I thought comparing these two players was a fine example.

Thanks for the listen.

Great post. Everything in the numbers pointed to Grice-Mullen being the better pro prospect. I'm just happy the Lions have him. After what he showed in limited action last year, I think he'll go into camp as the team's leading WR candidate, with Rodgers, Coleman, Skillern and all rookies fighting for one or two remaining import roster spots.

Then we should be happy that we got the better of the two . So far R-G-M hasn't really lit it up here yet either though, but lets give him time as he did show some good plays last season .
In fairness , although I agree with your view on not getting a fair shake for alot of players trying to get a crack at the NFL , the exact same thing happens all the time in the CFL too . It's just that when it happens here , we all see those mediocre games and think the cut was the right move , whereas we don't see those sub-par NFL-tryouts and think the player got the shaft . I can think of many CFL players who "got the shaft" here only to be given a second chance by a different team to come back and bite those who cut them earlier.
Off the top of my head a player who got such a shaft is Kamau Peterson of the EE . Wouldn't some of those other teams love to have him back now . Or Mike Pringle , he started his carreer ( as far as I know ) with the Esks , looked pretty good yet was let go to Baltimore where he came into his own to become one of the best ever RB's.
The way guys slip through the cracks is they have some sub-par performances , then patience runs out on them and they're cut , while the fans think good riddance . Just think of BC last season , who do so many want cut ? Uh , maybe Skillern ? The guy has shown to have very good potential and some real good games . Very tough in traffic when he has the ball and when his game was on , caught all thrown his way , but did have a couple of sub-par games when the whole team was doing the same , incuding Geroy and Clermot . Yet everyone was calling for his head because of those couple of games , while Wally has kept him on seeing the potential . I think we let the guy fight through it , he will be another Kamau , he does have the abiltity according to Paris Jackson .
A fan on another team who hasn't watched our games may wonder why we cut some we did too . When Adan Nicholson showed up with the Rdiers , he looked pretty good against us.

Good thread. I was a big UH fan when those two were there...was happy for RGM when you guys picked him up, IIRC he played his first game in Edmonton, did fairly well for a rook.

And the funny part is that the best receiver of that group was Jason Rivers, who I heard was cut by the af2 Spokane Shock and is currently unemployed in football AFAIK.

B.C.FAN wrote:Great post. Everything in the numbers pointed to Grice-Mullen being the better pro prospect. I'm just happy the Lions have him. After what he showed in limited action last year, I think he'll go into camp as the team's leading WR candidate, with Rodgers, Coleman, Skillern and all rookies fighting for one or two remaining import roster spots.

I agree.
Simon, Paris and Grice-Mullen could potentially be an explosive 1-2-3 punch on offense... If the Lions can find a 4th reciever (or if one of those names mentioned emerges. Also don't forget about O'Neil Wilson) that can come in and have a big impact, that would be absolutely huge.

JohnHenry wrote:QB's, receivers and DB's in the CFL gain so much game experience, many should be well suited to playing in the NFL. Contrarily, many NFL backups often have a hard time getting up to speed in the CFL.

Totally agree with this statement. Time and time again we see ex-NFL'ers come up here and struggle for this very reason. (one example: Ricky Williams worst yards per carry in 2006 (4.8) since Mark Nohra in 2001.)

I believe we as fans tend to over-rate the value in things like e-camp test numbers. I think they are used as a method to gauge the athleticism of one player versus another, not determine who will be the better player. In that regard I think of them as akin to the EPA fuel consumption ratings. I don't use trust them to be an accurate indication of how the vehicle itself will perform in the future as much as I use it to compare one model or engine versus another similar one. E-camp or combine numbers I look at as being like a pre-screening device in a hiring exercise. Once a player is in camp they become meaningless. Coaches will then focus on how quickly the player grasps his responsibilities and starts understanding the offence/defence and terminology. In the case of receivers they'll be watching how well the player runs his routes; if he's making the correct reads; how he adjusts to balls in the air; how well he gains separation on coverage; does he show signs of being coachable or otherwise; does he show good work habits; is he willing to make catches in traffic etc. Combine numbers don't tell those stories. A player with slightly better combine numbers could lag in all those key areas when they get to training camp.

As you say the line if fine. I recall watching a buddy's kid try out for a BCHL hockey team a few years back. Quesnel had a tryout camp prior to their main training camp. 60 kids were at the tryout camp and only 4 or 5 would earn an invite to the main camp. They broke the kids into 4 or 5 teams and ran them through a round-robin tournament. I watched one of those games. I could see a couple of kids who looked marginally better than the rest. One big gangly defenceman who had travelled all the way from Wisconsin for the tryout was the most noticable as a player who was clearly behind all the rest. As for the other 25 players in that scrimmage the untrained eye couldn't pick one from the other. My buddy's kid was one of those fitting the large group. Good wheels, decent skills and he'd done fairly well offensively in the KJHL. At one point in the scrimmage he came down the wing and wired a slapshot from the top of the circle. It rang off the outside of the post. He didn't make the cut but I couldn't help but wonder "what if" that shot rang off the inside of the post and he scored. A little thing like that could make all the difference. Ring it off the outside and it's decent shot, too bad. Ring it off the inside and score and people think sniper and maybe he gets a shot in the main camp.

Hambone wrote:I believe we as fans tend to over-rate the value in things like e-camp test numbers. I think they are used as a method to gauge the athleticism of one player versus another, not determine who will be the better player. In that regard I think of them as akin to the EPA fuel consumption ratings. I don't use trust them to be an accurate indication of how the vehicle itself will perform in the future as much as I use it to compare one model or engine versus another similar one. E-camp or combine numbers I look at as being like a pre-screening device in a hiring exercise. Once a player is in camp they become meaningless. Coaches will then focus on how quickly the player grasps his responsibilities and starts understanding the offence/defence and terminology. In the case of receivers they'll be watching how well the player runs his routes; if he's making the correct reads; how he adjusts to balls in the air; how well he gains separation on coverage; does he show signs of being coachable or otherwise; does he show good work habits; is he willing to make catches in traffic etc. Combine numbers don't tell those stories. A player with slightly better combine numbers could lag in all those key areas when they get to training camp.

Ya, there's alot lot more than just measurables that have to be taken into account for sure. I'm just not so sure a tryout or two is a big enough sample as to how a player can perform come gametime. Maybe it is though.

I agree that the camps (both the CFL draft camp, and the tryout camps CFL teams hold in the US) show the athleticism of the players. Plus the coaches want to see the individuals in person, see how fit they are, get a chance to talk to them, interview them.

But I would have to think that it is the film that tells the biggest story, how they have done in games. I would think that would be especially true for NFL-experienced players in the tryout camps. With less film on college players, I would think that would make them more of a gamble, more of an unknown commodity.

About Ryan Grice-Mullen: to my eye, he doesn't stand out when you watch the Lions practice. He is smallish. His speed and athleticism don't leap out at you the way Tony Simmons' did, for example. His hands don't seem exceptional. Based on the high regard in which his potential is held, he could be one of those players that can lull you to sleep on the field, not show you much, and then flash the breakaway speed. Hopefully, he can be a good one for the Lions.

All of this, IMHO.

WestCoastJoe wrote:About Ryan Grice-Mullen: to my eye, he doesn't stand out when you watch the Lions practice. He is smallish. His speed and athleticism don't leap out at you the way Tony Simmons' did, for example. His hands don't seem exceptional. Based on the high regard in which his potential is held, he could be one of those players that can lull you to sleep on the field, not show you much, and then flash the breakaway speed.

Not so sure I fully agree with that analysis, but all i can say is that I firmly believe that if we had not found Grice-Mullen, Clermont is still playing with us. R G-M gave us the luxary of being able to release Clermont and put Paris in the slot. I believe the quote from Buono after the cutting of Clermont was something along the lines of: "You have to look at the potential of a Ryan Grice-Mullen and adjust accordingly."
Obv the jury's still out on him, but something tells me he's going to be a future star.