Marc Lalonde Fought for the CFL, Introduced a Bill in 1974

[Spud387]

THE CANADIAN PRESS

HAMILTON -- The Hamilton Tiger-Cats say they won't participate in the plan to bring eight Buffalo Bills games to Toronto.

"We feel that bringing NFL games to stadiums in Canada without a comprehensive agreement between the CFL and the NFL will lead to unintended consequences, not all of them good," Ticats owner Bob Young said in a statement.

"The CFL is Canada's premier professional sports league, as the NFL is the premier sports league in the U.S. We are looking forward to a mutually beneficial agreement resulting from discussions between the CFL and NFL."

Last week the NFL confirmed that eight Bills games would be played at the Rogers Centre in Toronto over the next five years.

The Ticats said that contrary to earlier reports, they will not participate with Rogers Stadium Limited Partnership in the plan. Ticats season-ticket holders -- along with Argos and Bills season-ticket holders -- were to be given priority for purchasing tickets for the Toronto games.

Hamilton fans were expected to have a chance at 5,000 tickets although there was to be no direct financial benefit to the CFL club. The median price will reportedly be C$250 per ticket and fans not only must commit to all eight games but do so financially up front.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell confirmed during his state-of-the-union address in Arizona last week that Buffalo would stage a regular-season contest at Rogers Centre each season, starting in 2008, and also play three exhibition games every other year.

The NFL and CFL have been without a working agreement for some time now but CFL commissioner Mark Cohon said last week that he and Goodell are proceeding "methodically" on forming the framework of a new deal.

Ticats president Scott Mitchell says that his team's decision is intended to show support for such an agreement.

"In many ways, we're hoping to empower Mark even more -- that any arrangement with the NFL on a formal basis has to come from our CFL office," Mitchell told the Fan 590, a Toronto all-sports radio station. "I think that Mark has been working tremendously hard on this. I think it's a very difficult issue.

"He certainly tried to help us out as much as he could in this particular situation."

The NFL will determine when the games are played and the opponents. The Bills are expected to provide further details this week at a news conference, which is expected to be held in Toronto.

Good on the Ti-Cats for at least not jumping on the Toronto NFL wagon until the NFL-CFL have come to an agreement to make this beneficial to both.

[Big Time]

Big Time must be from out-of-province, because nobody from BC would ever project Kelowna as a potential CFL city...but perhaps in about a hundred years.

Ever been to Halifax or Quebec City? Because I have and I can tell you they are not much bigger than Kelowna. With the rapid population growth in Kelowna, not to mention the growing wealth, I would say that Kelowna could be a viable option if they had a suitable stadium. The Lions would likely object but it's not unfathomable.

[kamfan]

Big Time, I know nothing about you, but I can tell you are just going with your heart rather than your head when you try to say Kelowna is ready for a CFL franchise. I agree, it is growing, but to try to say it is growing at a rate that would allow for a CFL franchise, it is highly, highly unlikely.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Canada-Quebec.html

The above link shows that Quebec City was listed at 491,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Re ... nicipality

The above link lists Halifax at 372,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelowna,_British_Columbia

The above link shows that Kelowna proper has 106,000 and the Metropolitan area has 162,276.

As you can see, they are not even close. Ad that to the fact that the BC Lions are so close, Kelowna is not now, nor will it likely be in the future, be ready for such a major undertaking as a CFL franchise.

[Tighthead]

Toronto may have more corporate money than Buffalo, but then L.A. has much more than Toronto. Buffalo has only sold out 162 of their 165 corporate luxury boxes and Ralph Wilson stated these empty luxury boxes were the reason they wanted to tap into the Toronto market, to get more corporate support to sell these remaining boxes. Rogers Center has only 75 luxury boxes (mostly unused for decades except for Grey Cup games).

LA has more corporate money, but we are comparing Buffalo to Toronto, and the difference in wealth is significant. Wilson may be selling out his luxury boxes, but we can assume that like the tickets, he isn't getting top dollar for them. Price is established by demand.

I don't think Rogers Centre could be more than a temporary home for an NFL team. However, I would think that the plan now is to build up demand in the next five years, and see what sort of stadium deal can be made. The Canadian climate for stadium handouts is much different than in the US.

I assume the Rogers boxes are still in use for Jay games? I have no clue as to how they draw these days.

[Lionut]

As some of you know, I am currently in exile in Ottawa. The Renegades, sadly, died in April of 2006. Following Bobby Ackles' theory, minor football here should have taken a huge hit. It didn't -- in fact, it is more popular than ever. The number of teams and Associations continues to grow.

Exhibition B is in Atlantic Canada. There is no pro football there, of course, and likely won't be for some time. Minor football, though, thrives there, and university football has always been incredibly strong. (Acadia, St. FX, St. Mary's, and Mount Allison).

I have a lot of respect for Bobby Ackles, but he comes from a different generation. What Bobby fails to understand is that the NFL already is in Canada, de facto, and has been for many years. Dedicated sports channels and the internet have shrunk the sports world, and has made the NFL accessible to anyone who wishes to follow it. My son, for instance, can get instant info on any NFL team he likes, watch NFL Network every night, and with my help get a jersey from any team on eBay. Bobby is thinking like it is still 1978 -- the reality is that the CFL is already competing with the NFL for the hearts and minds of sports fans in Canada. Having the Bills play a game or two in Toronto each year won't change that.

[Spud387]

As some of you know, I am currently in exile in Ottawa. The Renegades, sadly, died in April of 2006. Following Bobby Ackles' theory, minor football here should have taken a huge hit. It didn't -- in fact, it is more popular than ever. The number of teams and Associations continues to grow.

You mis-understood Ackles. Ackles said that the NFL would kill the CFL and it wouldn't exist anymore. Once there is no CFL then minor football would suffer greatly. It wouldn't suffer like what he is talking about because one team folded. All those minor football players still have the hope to play in the CFL as there are still 8 other teams.

However their expectation to play in the NFL is so slim because of the USA's love for football

[Lionut]

As some of you know, I am currently in exile in Ottawa. The Renegades, sadly, died in April of 2006. Following Bobby Ackles' theory, minor football here should have taken a huge hit. It didn't -- in fact, it is more popular than ever. The number of teams and Associations continues to grow.

You mis-understood Ackles. Ackles said that the NFL would kill the CFL and it wouldn't exist anymore. Once there is no CFL then minor football would suffer greatly. It wouldn't suffer like what he is talking about because one team folded. All those minor football players still have the hope to play in the CFL as there are still 8 other teams.

However their expectation to play in the NFL is so slim because of the USA's love for football

No, I understood him perfectly. I just disagree with him. What I am saying is that there is little to no connection between the existence of the CFL, and the popularity of the game at the youth level. Hell, BC high schools play American rules, for crying out loud.

I have coached youth football for 17 years now, and very few of the kids I ever coached got into the game based on playing in the CFL one day. That's more of a hockey thing - in Canada, kids play football because it looks cool and seriously fun. Again, I go back to the Ottawa experience. The CFL is effectly dead to kids in the National Capital Region -- out of sight, out of mind. Yet football registration is booming even in the absence of the Renegades. Why? Because the game itself has a ton of appeal. To the extent these kids dream of the big time, trust me, none of them are thinking CFL. Thanks to TV and the internet, the big time to them is the NFL, just as it is to any CFL player who gets offered a contract to go south.

My experience has been that in football, the talk of the big time is far more limited than it is in hockey. Youth football in Canada is a lot like lacrosse in that it is a bit of a niche sport. In any niche sport, be it football, lacrosse, snowboarding, etc., it is more about the game itself than it is about any hero worship.

[WestCoastJoe]

Look, everyone in the CFL is mindful of the challenges posed by even the possibility of an NFL team moving to Toronto. We have to be clear eyed and sober minded about the potential challenges to our teams in southern Ontario. That’s one reason why I and the rest of the league’s leadership are working to achieve a long-term agreement with the NFL that’s positive for our league. And you should know: we would never pursue an agreement that wasn’t positive for our league and positive, most of all, for our fans.

At the same time, we can’t allow ourselves to get carried away by speculation or hype. Here are the facts that we do know: the Bills will play eight games in Toronto over the next five years, three of them pre-season games. This year, there will be one pre-season NFL game in Toronto. That’s happened before and had little impact on our teams. This year, there will be one regular season NFL game in Toronto. And it will be played several days after the Grey Cup in Montreal.

The Argos believe they have found a way to turn this into an opportunity to add value to their season ticket package, and possibly expose some new ticket holders to our great game. What we all agree on is we need to work towards a comprehensive agreement with the NFL that preserves and strengthens Canadian football and the CFL. You should know that this will take time. This is a complicated issue and, as one of the guardians of our game, I’m taking a very careful, methodical approach. You should also know that we’ll do everything we can to strengthen our league, in those discussions and beyond them.

-- A Message to the Fans from CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon, February 8, 2008

http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?module=news ... 0&writer=0

the Bills will play five regular season games in Toronto over the next five years

the Bills will play three pre-season games in Toronto over that time

one pre-season NFL game in Toronto this year
................

Would the NFL countenance a move by the Bills to Toronto? If they could avoid legal trouble, I think they would.

Would the Bills new ownership, post Ralph Wilson, want to move to Toronto? If it was Rogers-Tanenbaum, they would do it in the blink of an eye.

Would such a move mean the end of the CFL? No, but, IMHO, it would diminish the profile of the CFL in its own country. It would make CFL logos and merchandise less valuable. No sport in North America can compete with the NFL marketing machine.

Would Toronto be a viable NFL city? Toronto could be an excellent NFL city. It has the size, wealth, snobbery and sports fanaticism. Not sure if the Skydome (Rogers Centre) is what the NFL wants for a football stadium. Having looked at some pictures online, it seems to configure well enough for football.

Cohon does not say much about how he would act against a move by the NFL into Canada. I still think the only antidote would be action by the Canadian government. I would be in favour of such action.

[MacNews]

Could someone explain to me why they think the league couldn't survive without Toronto?

Because TSN and many other businesses are based in Toronto. They do sponsorship and all that because the largest market in the country, Toronto, is on-board. If the Argos die, suddenly it may not make good business-sense.

The Giants being in the Superbowl smoothed out a lot of potential problems, because their well-heeled fans snapped up event and game tickets in Phoenix, and tuned in at home.

[WestCoastJoe]

Bills' plan causes concern

Associated Press

February 8, 2008 at 8:02 PM EST

BUFFALO, N.Y. — When Bills owner Ralph Wilson was asked this week about the long-term future of the team in Buffalo, he said not to worry.

That seems to have a lot of people worried.

U.S. Senator Charles Schumer has been on the phone with Wilson for reassurance the team's not moving. Congressman Brian Higgins has written to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell. Mayor Byron Brown has written to Wilson, and the issue has been topic No. 1 on radio call-in shows.

With an 89-year-old owner whose family will not take over the team, fans' worries about hanging onto the Bills are never far from the surface.

But when Wilson announced Wednesday the team would begin playing an annual regular-season game in Toronto — and lamented the decline of the Buffalo market in the process — speculation ran rampant that it was a first step toward moving the Bills to Canada.

"I can't speculate what's going to happen in the future. But don't worry. Don't worry right now," Wilson said.

"I was upset of course," Schumer said, "and I called Ralph Wilson immediately."

Schumer said he "breathed a sigh of relief" after hearing Wilson speak of his commitment to Buffalo. But Schumer didn't have an answer for what will happen after Wilson dies, instead calling it a "sensitive question" and one that shouldn't be discussed publicly.

Too late.

Fans are already wondering what will become of the team, especially when the Toronto partners who are bringing the Bills north for one game a season through 2012 pursue an NFL franchise of their own. Those partners are Blue Jays owner Ted Rogers and Larry Tanenbaum, chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Raptors.

Erie County executive Chris Collins said the anxiety is understandable.

"Anytime Ralph Wilson stands up and talks about the Bills, the media and public are going to react, because we all would like this to be a done deal," Collins said Friday. "We'd like to know we're going to have local ownership of the team here."

In his letter to Goodell, a western New York native, Higgins asked the league to consider amending its constitution to give fans a shot at buying the team. He proposed either allowing full community ownership, modelled after the Green Bay Packers, whose fans bought the team before the NFL prohibited such arrangements, or "hybrid community ownership." In that scenario, a single owner would own a majority of shares, with fans holding the minority stake.

"Community ownership in the Bills would give the Buffalo fans that built this franchise a real role in steering the future of this team," the congressman wrote.

Bills executives say the Toronto venture is a way to strengthen the franchise by expanding its fan base, no different than when they moved training camp 120 kilometres east, near Rochester, in 2000.

A deal has yet to be completed, but it's projected the Bills could receive between $35 million and $50 million for the eight-game Toronto series (five regular season and three pre-season games), which would be more than double what they could make hosting the games at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

Collins, who took office last month, said the best way to keep the team from making a permanent move would be to strengthen the region, which Wilson bluntly pointed out is "dwindling."

The Bills' lease with the county extends until 2012, lending a sense of urgency.

"We grow or we die," Collins said, "and I don't want to be sitting here three years from now negotiating with the Bills and pointing to three more years of decline."

Brown, in his letter to Wilson, said the city has already made strides.

Also Friday, the Bills released their ticket price information for the season. The new average price of $51 marks about a $6 increase over last season, but is still $16 less than the NFL average last year.

Ticket prices don't include the pre-season game and regular-season game to be played in Toronto. Organizers there have said tickets will be expensive, with only some costing less than $100. Season-ticket holders of the CFL Toronto Argonauts will have the first option to purchase a limited selection of tickets, while others will be made available through a lottery.

There are lots of advocates on many different sides of this issue. It is putting a "death watch" on the life of Ralph Wilson, 89, owner of the Bills. After he dies, the team will be sold. We will see what happens ...

[B.C.FAN]

A deal has yet to be completed, but it's projected the Bills could receive between $35 million and $50 million for the eight-game Toronto series (five regular season and three pre-season games), which would be more than double what they could make hosting the games at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

The Bills could double their revenue with the Toronto games despite having 20,000 fewer seats in the Rogers Centre. Will Toronto fans overpay to see what will likely be meaningless games?

[No Ka Oi]

If they can find 50,000 Torontonians who will pay an average of $250 to watch a Bill's preseason game this July, Bills fans might not mind if they took ALL the preseason games...which are largely a blight to most fans' season ticket purchase, anyways...paying full price for games featuring mostly player's who couldn't make a CFL practice squad?...in the Skydome which has the worst football sightlines of any stadium in North American?...when they can watch the preseason game for free on TV?...I would be amazed. Many NFL STH give away their preseason tickets to kids or charity or many don't bother going at all...and if they do go, the stadium is usually 9/10ths empty by the 3rd quarter, even if their "team" is winning. As the old saying goes, "there is one born every minute..." :lol:

[David]

If they can find 50,000 Torontonians who will pay an average of $250 to watch a Bill's preseason game this July.....:

So it would seem, if anyone caught TSN's Off The Record yesterday. They had a panel debating the merits of the NFL coming to Toronto. "I'll be willing to pay $350 a ticket to watch the NFL in Toronto," some big wig from Glen Abbey Golf Course enthused, "this is the big time."

I guess PT Barnum was right.

To his credit, broadcaster Brian Williams staunchly defended the CFL on the panel discussion.

DH 8)

[MacNews]

The provincial or federal government can do anything they want, they simply have to invoke the notwithstanding clause.

[Tighthead]

The provincial or federal government can do anything they want, they simply have to invoke the notwithstanding clause.

I'm not so sure. That clause only relates to sections 2, 7 and 15 of the Charter.

A legal challenge would likely fall under restraint of trade, and therefore not relate to the Charter.