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David wrote:

sj-roc wrote:But in this case the player was correct in his protest of the initial non-call that was subsquently overturned on challenge, so if there were ever a situation where you'd rescind a penalty for arguing with officials, logically that would be it.

But if I'm not mistaken, the flag was thrown for the receiver mimicking throwing a flag - which was instituted last year as "objectionable conduct" (although I'm not sure how else a player on the field is supposed to encourage his coach to throw a challenge flag?).


DH

That was my understanding, too, and that's what I meant when I said "protest". The officials probably (or should) have some latitude to determine whether the player is gesturing toward his bench or at the official (though I'm not sure how often the former happens relative to the latter, at least when there's a PI issue). Although, if that's big a deal that a player could get flagged for advising their coach in this manner to issue a challenge, teams can make up their own signal that any player can use for this purpose.

To be clear, I was only speaking in hypotheticals — other than on the PI calls themselves, based on the discussion in this thread it seems there are essentially no mechanisms whereby a referee would overturn a flag decision based on conferring with anyone other than his own crew. BUT..... if there indeed were one, then this would be it: i.e., if a player gestures towards an official by mimicking the flag toss to protest a PI non-call and gets flagged for OC, but the coach successfully challenges that there was PI, then it would be logical to rescind the initial OC, because what's so "objectionable" about a player championing what ultimately proved to be the right decision? Of course some receivers will always feel they've been PI'ed, but it doesn't mean they're always wrong about it.

I know, I know — if we start questioning the league's ways and use logic to do so, it can be a bit of a risky gambit.

sj-roc wrote:

pennw wrote:On a positive note about the officiating , they' seem to be getting the challenges right instead of worrying about saving face for the ref .

The challenges are adjudicated by the command centre in Toronto, aren't they? So I don't know how much loyalty they would have to the crew on the ground when their own hides are on the line. They probably feel a responsibility to overturn some amount of calls to justify their job, you know what I mean? Kinda like the trope of how cops have quotas when it comes to handing out speeding tickets.

That is what I was saying , the reviews from command centre appear to be independent of the on field crews and seem to be getting calls right now. It didn't seem like that in earlier times for video reviews , when there were some real head scratchers on replays . Now on field crews need to b more with it if they don't want to look bad , being frequently challenged and having their calls reversed . This is a very positive thing , addressing a long time sore spot for many fans . Good job by the CFL .

dupsdell1 wrote:Just heard Andrew Harris Saying on 1040 that to all the fans that left his quote is " they gave up on us" , Way to go Andrew that is exactly how it is to many fickle fans in this city they are known to leave early. should be ashamed of yourselves. ( I had to work all night so do not come back on me saying were was I . )

I didn't like seeing him tweet about that. He shouldn't have even brought up the matter at all. But if he insisted on talking about it, he should have taken the high road and instead thanked the fans who stuck around and helped cheer the team on to victory. Moreover complaining about fans leaving early shows poor focus: it's not his job to monitor what's going on in the stands; he should just keep his head in the game.

Telling those fans to, and I quote from his tweet, "Give your head a shake!" — really? How does a tweet like that encourage the ticket-buying public to pony up for the next game?

sj-roc wrote:

dupsdell1 wrote:Just heard Andrew Harris Saying on 1040 that to all the fans that left his quote is " they gave up on us" , Way to go Andrew that is exactly how it is to many fickle fans in this city they are known to leave early. should be ashamed of yourselves. ( I had to work all night so do not come back on me saying were was I . )

I didn't like seeing him tweet about that. He shouldn't have even brought up the matter at all. But if he insisted on talking about it, he should have taken the high road and instead thanked the fans who stuck around and helped cheer the team on to victory. Moreover complaining about fans leaving early shows poor focus: it's not his job to monitor what's going on in the stands; he should just keep his head in the game.

Telling those fans to, and I quote from his tweet, "Give your head a shake!" — really? How does a tweet like that encourage the ticket-buying public to pony up for the next game?

Harris' comments read like a twenty something jacked up on a superb comeback victory and comments from 50+ year old veteran coach Tedford where something to the effect of, thanks to those who stayed and made noise and hope the folks that left, next time stay until the end. Tedford had the wisdom to take the high road even though he might have felt like Harris.

Harris, as a team leader, plays with passion, emotion and urgency and it is not necessarily something that gets turned off the minute a game is over so I am willing to give him a mulligan.

DanoT wrote:

sj-roc wrote:

dupsdell1 wrote:Just heard Andrew Harris Saying on 1040 that to all the fans that left his quote is " they gave up on us" , Way to go Andrew that is exactly how it is to many fickle fans in this city they are known to leave early. should be ashamed of yourselves. ( I had to work all night so do not come back on me saying were was I . )

I didn't like seeing him tweet about that. He shouldn't have even brought up the matter at all. But if he insisted on talking about it, he should have taken the high road and instead thanked the fans who stuck around and helped cheer the team on to victory. Moreover complaining about fans leaving early shows poor focus: it's not his job to monitor what's going on in the stands; he should just keep his head in the game.

Telling those fans to, and I quote from his tweet, "Give your head a shake!" — really? How does a tweet like that encourage the ticket-buying public to pony up for the next game?

Harris' comments read like a twenty something jacked up on a superb comeback victory and comments from 50+ year old veteran coach Tedford where something to the effect of, thanks to those who stayed and made noise and hope the folks that left, next time stay until the end. Tedford had the wisdom to take the high road even though he might have felt like Harris.

Harris, as a team leader, plays with passion, emotion and urgency and it is not necessarily something that gets turned off the minute a game is over so I am willing to give him a mulligan.

I am going to give Harris a mulligan too. He puts his everything into every game: body, mind and soul, especially body. He is as passionate as they come. And every player and coach at some time notices the crowd. Feel like given up on? Sure. Wise to say it, from a P.R. point of view? No, of course not. In the heat of battle, or just after? Stuff gets said.

Back in 2011, I believe it was, Harris complained about something in the offence. We turned it around on our way to the Grey Cup. There are times, albeit few indeed, where a player speaks out, and it works to the benefit of the team.

I think Harris even spoke to Tedford during the game, with respect apparently, and with his usual forthright passion.

Harris, in my opinion, is the farthest thing from "trouble" on a team as it gets. His passion has to come out.

I personally think if Harris were to be gagged, so to speak, he would not have the necessary fire that he needs to carry the rock, with 12 angry men trying to crush him.

Just IMO ... and I know that for 95% of athletes, they need to keep heated comments to themselves. QBs can get away with comments that others could not. Some prominent athletes virtually run their team. (Magic Johnson back in the day. Joe Kapp with the Lions, etc.) It is a subject with many layers to it.

I recall Phil Esposito complaining about Vancouver fans booing Team Canada, when we lost the game in Vancouver big time to the USSR in the first challenge series. I did not like to hear it, but Phil was fully entitled to his view. His fire and passion were a huge part of our comeback in that series. Those fans that booed might have had some feelings of humility or regret, or perhaps not, when we defeated the USSR. Those athletes represented Canada, giving their all, on their own time, with great sacrifice. That series, by the way, in my opinion, contributed greatly to overall Canadian pride, in all things Canadian.

As a fan, I want Andrew Harris operating at full tilt. That is just me. And what he said is actually true. The vast majority of those fans leaving did give up on the team. Someone said it. Harris said it.

I noticed Tedford removed his headset and gave Andrew his full attention as Andrew stood, with respect, facing him, pretty much at attention, expressing his strongly held view, during the game, when we trailed.

How to handle it, from Tedford's point of view? I trust Tedford in this. A quiet word to the passionate athlete. Respect the patrons. They pay their money. If they want to walk out, let them.

DanoT wrote:

sj-roc wrote:

dupsdell1 wrote:Just heard Andrew Harris Saying on 1040 that to all the fans that left his quote is " they gave up on us" , Way to go Andrew that is exactly how it is to many fickle fans in this city they are known to leave early. should be ashamed of yourselves. ( I had to work all night so do not come back on me saying were was I . )

I didn't like seeing him tweet about that. He shouldn't have even brought up the matter at all. But if he insisted on talking about it, he should have taken the high road and instead thanked the fans who stuck around and helped cheer the team on to victory. Moreover complaining about fans leaving early shows poor focus: it's not his job to monitor what's going on in the stands; he should just keep his head in the game.

Telling those fans to, and I quote from his tweet, "Give your head a shake!" — really? How does a tweet like that encourage the ticket-buying public to pony up for the next game?

Harris' comments read like a twenty something jacked up on a superb comeback victory and comments from 50+ year old veteran coach Tedford where something to the effect of, thanks to those who stayed and made noise and hope the folks that left, next time stay until the end. Tedford had the wisdom to take the high road even though he might have felt like Harris.

Harris, as a team leader, plays with passion, emotion and urgency and it is not necessarily something that gets turned off the minute a game is over so I am willing to give him a mulligan.

I just listened to his interview today with Brook Ward here: http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040- ... 1-1.330009

It was the final question (cue to about 7:48 of the 8:40 file) where he was asked about fans leaving. I thought he came off better, less confrontational in his answer than he did on the tweet, acknowledging the fans who stayed and cheered. But having said all that, and I've already said this on here since the game ended, I don't think it's wise to get hostile over fans leaving early. As I mentioned some people have perfectly good reasons for doing so that have nothing to do with the perceived quality of the on-field product. I heard a bit of Tom Mayenknecht this morning who said he was at the game but left around the start of Q4, when the outcome was still very much in doubt (certainly much more so than with 2:00 left). Well, of course he did — he had a 4hr radio show to host at 7am! For 2-3yrs I used to sit near this other guy who also did a weekend morning radio gig. He lived out around White Rock, so a 2hr drive in all the traffic. He'd leave from most games with at least 5:00 left to play.

The game had many warts but still a win is a win.

Positives:

- play of the offensive line. Didn't surrender a sack. With one exception, Lulay had time to find his receivers

- Richie Leone Had an excellent night punting and placekicking including a club record 56 yard field goal. Only blemish was a missed convert

- Travis Lulay. Had over 400 yards passing with no interceptions.

Negatives:

- inability to rush the passer and stopping the run

- undisciplined penalties. The one that stands out for me was Michael Brooks after the defence stopped the Riders on 2nd and 25

- inability to score majors in the Red Zone

WestCoastJoe wrote:I am going to give Harris a mulligan too. He puts his everything into every game: body, mind and soul, especially body. He is as passionate as they come. And every player and coach at some time notices the crowd. Feel like given up on? Sure. Wise to say it, from a P.R. point of view? No, of course not. In the heat of battle, or just after? Stuff gets said.

Back in 2011, I believe it was, Harris complained about something in the offence. We turned it around on our way to the Grey Cup. There are times, albeit few indeed, where a player speaks out, and it works to the benefit of the team.

I think Harris even spoke to Tedford during the game, with respect apparently, and with his usual forthright passion.

Harris, in my opinion, is the farthest thing from "trouble" on a team as it gets. His passion has to come out.

I personally think if Harris were to be gagged, so to speak, he would not have the necessary fire that he needs to carry the rock, with 12 angry men trying to crush him.

Just IMO ... and I know that for 95% of athletes, they need to keep heated comments to themselves. QBs can get away with comments that others could not. Some prominent athletes virtually run their team. (Magic Johnson back in the day. Joe Kapp with the Lions, etc.) It is a subject with many layers to it.

I recall Phil Esposito complaining about Vancouver fans booing Team Canada, when we lost the game in Vancouver big time to the USSR in the first challenge series. I did not like to hear it, but Phil was fully entitled to his view. His fire and passion were a huge part of our comeback in that series. Those fans that booed might have had some feelings of humility or regret, or perhaps not, when we defeated the USSR. Those athletes represented Canada, giving their all, on their own time, with great sacrifice. That series, by the way, in my opinion, contributed greatly to overall Canadian pride, in all things Canadian.

As a fan, I want Andrew Harris operating at full tilt. That is just me. And what he said is actually true. The vast majority of those fans leaving did give up on the team. Someone said it. Harris said it.

I noticed Tedford removed his headset and gave Andrew his full attention as Andrew stood, with respect, facing him, pretty much at attention, expressing his strongly held view, during the game, when we trailed.

How to handle it, from Tedford's point of view? I trust Tedford in this. A quiet word to the passionate athlete. Respect the patrons. They pay their money. If they want to walk out, let them.

I don't question at all what AH brings on the field. I'm happy to have him on the team. But that tweet last night, coming unprovoked and with a veneer of hostility would IMHO have been better left untweeted. As you say, the fans who pay have to be respected. He also tweeted "good riddance" to Khalif the first time we let him go. He must have felt a bit sheepish about that when KM was brought back last year (not that he contributed much). It can add up when a player broadcasts such comments. Certainly KM with his own baggage must have learned that lesson by now! It has to be understood that crowds are shrinking at this time and the league and the Lions can ill afford anything that would escalate the trend.

I thought he came off better on the radio today. The question was put to him whereas the tweet was offering an unsolicited opinion, and there was a night to sleep on the matter. His answer still carried a degree of admonishment but it was more a tone of disappointment than anger or confrontation and he was careful to acknowledge those who stayed.

As for Phil and the Summit Series, I'm too young to have that under my belt first hand, and not to get too far OT but I've heard that the magnitude of that interview has become a bit over-inflated through the years. There seems to be a mythology that PE's words somehow galvanised the team and willed them to victory in Moscow. But then I've seen accounts where the rest of the team wasn't even aware of the interview until long after the fact; they were already in the dressing room while PE said his piece at rinkside out of earshot and then they left Canada for Europe not long afterward. Technology then wasn't what it is now with a smartphone in every pocket and all the world's information at your fingertips.

An article from 2010: http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/3 ... peech.html

[After game 4 in Vancouver,] Canada was headed off to enemy territory for the final four games of the series.

Immediately after his emotional speech to the nation, Esposito returned to the dressing room, but didn’t say anything to his teammates. Instead, he had other business to take care of that made it clear this series was about more than just hockey.

“First off, I was getting phone calls from people,” Esposito recently recalled. “I think I took five calls, four of them were terrific, one was from northern British Columbia telling me the communists were better and why don’t you admit it: communism is better than capitalism and we should be socialists in this country.”

It’s recognized that the boisterous and outspoken Italian from Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., turned the tide of the series with his brief, but passionate plea. However, Esposito himself didn’t realize the importance of that moment in the history of the game or in that series until 10 years later when they gathered for a reunion and finally watched it.

“I was embarrassed,” Esposito said. “I came as close as you can come to swearing on the air and caught myself. Which is unusual because I was in the kind of mood where I could have said anything. The truth is, I had nothing to lose. I was playing in the States. If we lost that series when I got up to Montreal or Toronto they might have booed a little bit, but I got booed anyway.”

Here's a short video clip where a reporter brings up the interview and he says the same thing:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/6403015

sj-roc wrote: I don't question at all what AH brings on the field. I'm happy to have him on the team. But that tweet last night, coming unprovoked and with a veneer of hostility would IMHO have been better left untweeted. As you say, the fans who pay have to be respected. He also tweeted "good riddance" to Khalif the first time we let him go. He must have felt a bit sheepish about that when KM was brought back last year (not that he contributed much). It can add up when a player broadcasts such comments. Certainly KM with his own baggage must have learned that lesson by now! It has to be understood that crowds are shrinking at this time and the league and the Lions can ill afford anything that would escalate the trend.

We agree that the comment was ill advised, in fact not advised at all, justnfrom the heart, in the heat of the moment.

And there is that divide between soldiers and non-combatants that plays into it. A natural divide, and understandable.

Re Phil Esposito ...

It was a galvanizing series for the country, IMO.

As a Vancouverite, and a Canadian, I was taken aback by his comment, initially. But I came to understand the commitment of the players to represent their country, against an amazingly well-prepared juggernaut of a team, that caught us by surprise. Phil was hurt by the boos, and he spoke out. I heard him live. His words pointed out a different perspective for most fans, myself included. They were giving it up for their country, and they were being booed.

I came to have no problem with Phil's comments.

Yes, the fans pay, and they can leave if they want.

Andrew could benefit from wise counsel, which I am sure he will get from Tedford, in a quiet way.

Back later ... From the iPad, never an easy task, IMO ...

I had to laugh when I recognised an old Chapdelaine play that he always predictably used and failed. Failed this time too. Receiver sweep for a loss ! I loved the 2 screen passes that the Lions did though, they seemed to never use screens with Benny and Chap and the odd time they did it was a fail

I have always stayed until the final whistle, no matter how lopsided the game might appear to be. Last night was the best example you could give for "No Lead Is Safe".

I'm glad to see the exhortations to "Make Some Noise!!!!" are gone.

Watching the game again on PVR, I noticed the TSN team were remarking about Tedford using his "arm wave down" to quiet the crowd on offense, and "arm wave up" for noise on defense. Overall, I'm very impressed by his demeanor every game I've seen so far--professional (watch his interactions with officials) and players clearly respect him. (Completely different to the Benevides Belly-Bump era.)

The most heartening sight was how Travis actually got stronger as the game went on. If he can receive the kind of protection he got last night, it's a lot more hopeful than it was a month ago. The TSN graphic of how his throwing mechanics have changed was good to see, since it proves he can adapt.

Let's hope we can get a positive outcome in hostile Riderville next week.

I have zero problem with what Harris said. He's right! Unless you have a legit reason to be somewhere else, why are you leaving early? So you can beat the traffic by 5 minutes? I've never understood this at any sporting event. I always stay until the end precisely because of what happened last night.

Good for Harris for not being politically correct and calling those fans out. Last night was the most exciting finish at a Lions home game that I have seen in YEARS. I'd rather see a young emerging leader like Harris not take the high road and call a spade a spade like he did. If the Lions can show no quit on the field, they should expect the same from the fans.

I stayed 'til the very end but don't begrudge fans who left. I was pissed off at that point too.

Honestly, who among us other that the craziest optimist would have thought this group (who'd had trouble finding the end-zone all night I might add), would:

* Complete a long pass for a late touchdown
* Throw again successfully in the endzone for a 2-pt convert
* Stop Sask on 3rd and a half yard with a minute left
* Split the uprights in the dying seconds from 56-yards to tie the game
* Score another touchdown in OT to win it - something we haven't done since 2011!

Leaving a football game with an 11 point deficit is not exclusive to Vancouver either. You would have seen fans streaming out of most any other ball park with 5 minutes left. Add in the fact that it's downtown Vancouver on a Friday night with a multitude of entertainment options. Nope, would have loved them stay, but don't blame them for leaving.


DH

VictoriaFan wrote:I had to laugh when I recognised an old Chapdelaine play that he always predictably used and failed. Failed this time too. Receiver sweep for a loss ! I loved the 2 screen passes that the Lions did though, they seemed to never use screens with Benny and Chap and the odd time they did it was a fail

The two occasions they called it was purrfect. It was well executed and went for big gains. Chapdelaine doesn't know what a screen pass is

David wrote:I stayed 'til the very end but don't begrudge fans who left. I was pissed off at that point too.

Honestly, who among us other that the craziest optimist would have thought this group (who'd had trouble finding the end-zone all night I might add), would:

* Complete a long pass for a late touchdown
* Throw again successfully in the endzone for a 2-pt convert
* Stop Sask on 3rd and a half yard with a minute left
* Split the uprights in the dying seconds from 56-yards to tie the game
* Score another touchdown in OT to win it - something we haven't done since 2011!

Leaving a football game with an 11 point deficit is not exclusive to Vancouver either. You would have seen fans streaming out of most any other ball park with 5 minutes left. Add in the fact that it's downtown Vancouver on a Friday night with a multitude of entertainment options. Nope, would have loved them stay, but don't blame them for leaving.


DH

You can also throw in how slow the game flowed what with the penalty parade. Checked my watch at the end of regulation, 10:10pm. Win or lose, people should have already been in their vehicles on the way home by that point anyway.

Big Time wrote:Unless you have a legit reason to be somewhere else, why are you leaving early? So you can beat the traffic by 5 minutes? I've never understood this at any sporting event. I always stay until the end precisely because of what happened last night.

Well you could turn that question around. Who are you, or anybody else for that matter, to insist that people stay until the final gun? But you answered the question yourself; there are plenty of legit reasons to be somewhere else. Besides, as David more or less pointed out, it's not like the team gave fans a lot of hope through 58 minutes that they could pull it off. Until the GWTD, we'd held the lead only once — by a whopping two points — for a grand total of *less than five minutes*.

After teams exchanged punts to start the game, Ssk opened the scoring with Dressler wide open for a TD on their 2nd series. They remained in front until we kicked a chipshot FG to make it 9-7 on the first drive of the second half — which was actually the 3rd time to that point that we'd gotten inside the Ssk20 only to come away with a FG instead of a TD, so taking the lead in such fashion wasn't really much of a statement. Then came a quick exchange of 2 & outs before Glenn threw Dressler another major with about 5mins left in Q3 to go back out in front. From that point it wasn't until the final play of the night that we regained the lead.

Had there been more lead changes, more back and forth, more signs of resiliency, maybe more people would have hung around, who knows? But still, it's not really on you or me or anybody to question when they leave.