Lions 26 Stamps 7 Stats and Post Game Comments

[Toppy Vann]

South Pender - nice perspective but check the Lions home game stats for the final two of the year PLUS the loss of a home play off date - all benchmarks the football side of the organization have missed at a time when rising costs are putting pressure on ticket prices for fans in a seat driven league.

24K for Esks followed by 27K for Stamps (following Buck and Logan bringing some excitement back) and the reemergence of a running game.

Same old Lions story - run game hard. Dorazio blocking scheme too challenging - we've heard it all before.

Valli and others in 2011 called out the scheme as too many passes and teams pinning their ears back and coming hard at them. Media too. Same this season and Wally finally lit the fire.

It's a business and the product on the field combined with media and fan reviews showed the Lions what they thought of it - they stayed home in significant numbers and watched on TV.

Toppy, I'm not concerned at this point about the lost revenue, but rather the team's chances moving forward. Sure, I certainly know that it's a business, but most of us on Lionbackers are interested in the play of the team and the intricacies involved with this. Wally and Skulsky can worry about the dollars, and this might motivate them to bring in some topnotch players for 2014. I'm not sure about the "same old story" part of your post. Sure, lots of folks on this forum see it that way, but, in my opinion, every season is unique, and a lot of what is blamed on "same old, same old" is really the result of some unique injuries that made changes necessary, but, at the same time, very difficult. I don't think I'd cite something Dean Valli said in 2011. A better player wouldn't be complaining about the opponents' defenses "coming hard at them"; he'd be moving those guys out. That has been the problem this year, as far as I'm concerned: sub-standard O-line play that isn't Dorazio's fault. Valli, for one, is just simply not good enough to play effectively in the CFL.

Even Dorazio disagrees with you and said so publically and admitted coaching was an issue this year. In other year's players and coaches (Baresi, Burratto, Kruck) who spoke up were soon gone and players deemed uncoachable all of a sudden.

As to why fans need to be concerned about the business side is that fans pay for the seats and the per seat costs are rising.
The gate pays the bills and the gate is critical to an owner wanting to be an owner. Please note: Braley has to own two teams and only bought it as no one else wanted it.

I've followed this regime for a lot of years and while Wally has overall done a super job he has been a wee bit guilty of instilling a teensy weensy culture of denial when problems show up on the field and formerly always laid it on players and not coaching or schemes. Less so now that he not HC.

He has even sat a member of this forum down like he has done with media to show them how they are wrong about what everyone is saying about his offense incl. players! This is not unique but history.

I'm not calling for anyone's firing or head but noting some reality here.

To pretend that the prior seasons didn't happen doesn't make your case. This year is just one of a number of times that fans and media see flaws in the Lion offense only to be told they are wrong. Actually this year the Lions didn't do a Wally and say fans were wrong about the running game. That was Wally before saying it was all execution and not schemes.

[South Pender]

SP, you blindly defend Wally, Chaps and the Lions regardless of what the Players, Team Captains, the Opposition, Media, and other fans say...that's makes your views skewed and lacking perspective...it also makes you a strong Lion's fan, which is always appreciated, but difficult to engage in any "conversation" because there is no middle ground...

Not blindly, MLF, but rather by considering all the evidence. It's simply not true that the "...players, Team Captains, the Opposition, Media, and other fans" are unanimously down on Chaps the way you are. You have taken a few comments by writers after losses and transformed these reasonable comments about what could have been done better into outright disdain for Chaps. You have taken comments by players that could be interpreted in a very different way and, once again, transformed them into harsh criticism, that you would see as calling for his dismissal. This tendency of yours "makes your views skewed and lacking perspective." You speak of a middle ground, but never seem to be able to find it--always laying the wood on Chaps. How about a little perspective on your part?

Your comments about attendance once again misconstrue my own comments. I wasn't saying that attendance is not a concern, merely not something I was considering in my post. Try to actually read the posts. My focus was on other issues that, I think, are of greater interest to the members of this forum. But, if we must, let's consider attendance. The home attendance at BC Place was down this year--by 6.7% compared with 2012. It was only 4.8% lower than our GC-winning year of 2011, and was up 17.4% in 2013 over 2010. These yearly fluctuations in attendance are to be expected right across the league, as any examination of home attendance records will show. However, you evidently lay all the blame for this on Bene and Chaps. Interesting. Although we were down 6.7% in attendance between 2012 and 2013, the Toronto Argonauts were down 7.4%--this the year after winning the Grey Cup. I guess by your analysis of the Lions, you would blame this on HC Scott Milanovich (merely the CFL Head Coach of the Year for 2012), or perhaps you'd like to indict Marcus Brady (offensive coordinator) and Chris Jones (defensive coordinator) as well. Right, MLF? Or does this blaming the coaching staff for everything apply only with the Lions? I fear your very deep dislike for Chaps has clouded your judgement, and any perspective is missing.

[Toppy Vann]

SP..

You forget whose fingerprints were all over the demise of Burratto back in 2003-04 when he was demoted from play calling for Jacque. When Wally let Burratto go, he said it was ONE coach not on the same page as the others - Burratto who believes in a pass and run view of football.

Then Kruck when Chap returned got the same fate (Like Burratto banished from the field of play first ) and then toasted for play calling and then gone.

Baresi gone too. He was a RB coach. Now we have an OL as RB coach.

See any pattern here?

These 3 coaches - Kruck, Burratto, Baresi - have ONE thing in common. They believe in some balance in an offensive attack and not just in a passing only game. It seems their views and Chapdelaine differ. JC is a survivor big time but the reality is that changes come too late in some years to win the big ones.

It seems the addition of Logan and Pierce and the calling out of the run game by Buono has finally got this ship righted and they're looking good as they seem to be peaking for playoffs. If not for this in the last two games the Lions risk a whole lot as they end the season and now want to market season tickets for next year.

LouHarris - that new poster here says exactly what my casual fan friends all say and these fans make the difference when it comes to a ticket price increase or not.

As to eliminating seats in the stands for the final two home games and not getting a home play off date with this team - while I'm sure their owner is not too happy about that as Sask needs that home gone a lot less than BC did.

Again, not calling for the demise of any BC coach or JC but I'd like to see some thinking change here where the year starts with the right view on offense and they consistently develop their team to be able to run and pass as needed and I never, ever want to hear another BC Lion coach utter one word about how hard it is to teach run blocking or how the scheme is too complex and not working so we simplified it and wow, can we run now!

Overall this regime in BC has given fans and the CFL great stability and up until the latter part of the season where the offense bored and frustrated fans to death - pretty good excitement. I know they won't win every year but it is how they play and prepare that can make a difference for the fan base as well as if the coaches seem to accept the reality of the problems the team has and that has been a flaw in BC.

Funny now that Wally is GM he is less likely to say it is not scheme or coaching...lol. Refreshing.

[South Pender]

Funny now that Wally is GM he is less likely to say it is not scheme or coaching...lol. Refreshing.

I think that Wally did, in fact, say that it's not scheme or coaching by bringing in 3 key players late in the season--Pierce, Wilson, and Logan. Actions speak louder than words!

[Blitz]

It certainly has been an interesting season. After last season's 13-5 record, the best in the CFL and a Leos team that had both the best offence and the best defense in the CFL, expectations were high for this season.

I think, based upon those expectations, realistic or not, this season has been disappointing. Certainly we slipped from last year. We finished with an 11-7 record this year, tied with Saskatchewan for second place in the West and we had the same record as Toronto, which won the East. However, due to our won-lost record with the Riders we were doomed for third place in the West with two games to go and that impacted the final results.

Both on offence and on defense we did not match last season's performance. On offence Andrew Harris finished 3rd in rushing, as he did last year, but his rushing numbers were down a bit from last season, in terms of total yards (2013-198 carries -998 yds - 5.0 yd. rush average, 2012 -187 carries, 1112 yards, 5.9 yd rush average. Interestingly, even with the addition of Logan for the last few games of the season Harris actually had more carries this season than last year.

However, there was a period of this season, following the injury to Fabian until the addition of Logan, where our run game was very ineffective. Being 3rd in the CFL in rushing this season did not make our run game a disaster, in that only Calgary and Saskatchewan were better but certainly the struggles of our run game over a period of games was a concern that impacted our entire offence.

On Lionbackers there has been much debate and opinion over our run game and where most of the responsibility lay when it was ineffective with a focus on two areas - our offensive line and coaching.

Instead of continuing that debate I'm going to focus on what I respect. First of all kudos to Wally for making the decision to bring in Stefan Logan so late in the season. It has proven to be a very good move for our offence and for Harris, who has played his very best this season since the addition of Logan. Harris has well over an 8 yard per carry average in his last two games. Both Logan and Harris have enjoyed impressive yards per carry averages and our running game has looked very good with both in the lineup and sharing the carries.

Secondly, compliments to the coaching staff for making almost a complete change to our blocking scheme so late in the season. Rather than continuing with a blocking scheme that had worked so well for two seasons prior but struggles this season, they began the change 4 games ago. That is not something that most pro teams would do at the stage of the season we were at. Instead most pro teams would wrinkle it. Thirdly kudos to the offensive line who has spend a lot of extra practice time and study time learning it and have shown they could execute it successfully.

How well it will work in Saskatchewan, a team very good at stopping the run is still left to be determined but certainly it has created a lot more hope when the hope for our offence was disappearing. It has not been an easy season offensively. Injuries to Angus Reid at training camp, Hameister-Rees not able to recover from off-season surgery, the injury to Kirby Fabian, the injury to Travis Lulay, and the drop off of Tom DeMarco, after a good early impression at quarterback were all factors for our offence in 2013.

However, our Leos had a great regular season last year and saw it all slip out of our fingers in one WDF game. We might get the same result in Regina but a win there would almost balance lhis season with last year's disappointing playoff end.

On defense in 2013 we had the best defense in the CFL for most of the season. Once again expectations were high after last season's record breaking defensive record. Our defense, going into the playoffs is second best against the run, best against the pass, and second only to Montreal, which has an excellent defense, in average yards against per game (a four yard difference)

The most significant difference this season and last season, defensively, was that in 2012 we led the league in sacks and this season we are 6th in getting quarterback sacks. Our sack totals are not that much lower than last year but other defenses really improved their sack totals in this season of the blitz for many defenses as well as a lot of press man coverage.

There were stuggles for our Leos this season but we had the same record of 11-7 in our Grey Cup season and considered it a success. Of course we ran off a string of victories to complete that season but we have played well in our last two games overall and go into the playoffs on a positive note and reading the posts on "Why we will win in Regina" reflect that Leos fans at least feel more confident in a playoff victory than they would have a few short games ago.

Whether we win or lose in Regina I have enjoyed this season, with both its low and high points. An 11-7 season is still a good season in the big picture and only less so based upon last season's regular season success. I often wish for perfection or close to it as many of you seem to do as well. Idealists we often are. But as long as there is hope there is excitement. For me, its the time now to be more of a cheerleader with a playoff game in close sight and then focus on the changes needed in the off-season.

Go Leos!!

[Toppy Vann]

Funny now that Wally is GM he is less likely to say it is not scheme or coaching...lol. Refreshing.

I think that Wally did, in fact, say that it's not scheme or coaching by bringing in 3 key players late in the season--Pierce, Wilson, and Logan. Actions speak louder than words!

I think Wally changed the leadership mix by bringing in those guys and it turned out to be a very, very smart move.

However there was a larger message too that was delivered during their struggles that the coaches responded to and now this Lions team is heading to Regina where we actually now can realistically think they have a chance to win.

Top of mind for Skulsky (marketing) and Buono is they both must account to the owner for the season's lousy numbers at the gate on those final home dates plus most importantly the loss of a home play off date.

This is for me refreshing from Wally from when he was HC and GM and spoke of execution by players so much and so often that it droves fans and media nuts. Unlike Hervey he has kept this at the right level.

Buono’s 15 minutes of fume

General manager demands improvement from Lions players and coaching staff

BY ED WILLES, THE PROVINCE OCTOBER 23, 2013

“Right now, honestly, we’ve got to improve,” said the Lions’ resident icon when asked about the condition of his team. “It’s a struggle. When one side’s playing well, the other side (messes, or words to that effect) the bed. When the other side’s playing well, the other side (has the same problem with) the bed.

“I think we have to become singular minded as a team — that’s the coaches and the players — so the debacle that happened in Saskatchewan doesn’t happen again.”

This is not how Wally used to talk when he was HC - so he has altered his message now that he is GM alone:

“We’re running out of mulligans,” he said. “We’ve got to accept that we’re going to war with a young quarterback (Thomas DeMarco). We have to help him to be able to deal with the pressures and expectations of winning. I just don’t think we’re doing that.

“Yes, he’s got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too.”

That comment sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Buono was then asked if it’s incumbent on the coaches to come up with a game plan that minimizes the risks with a young quarterback while playing to his strengths and to the strengths of the team.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Buono ... story.html

And in THE SUN to Cam Cole Wally had this to say:

"I understand that the critical thing is the product on the field. But a lot of times, coaches are young people who are given opportunities and we give them maybe too much status or power. That's earned, it's not given," said Buono.

"See, a guy that took over (legendary Edmonton coach) Hugh Campbell's position got Hugh Campbell status, as far as whatever he says is law. Well, he's not earned that yet. Hugh Campbell earned it, because he won five Grey Cups. When he said boo, hey, you should flinch. He's earned that. What happens sometimes is you get people who hire a coach and they give him a status that's not earned. And this is why organizations tumble.

"So this is why I think mentoring, cultivating, patience, encouragement are so important. Because you're putting your organization in this man's hands. You can't just say, 'I'm going to back off and put it all on him.' That's not fair to him. That's why these guys fail. You've got to support them, give them what they need, and they're going to go through tough times. Right now, this is a tough time."

"The point is, this team can do that. But we can't piss away opportunities, we've gotta line up and play good football. There's no team in this league today that I believe is that much superior to everybody. But you gotta go out and make plays."

It didn't sound like a request.

ccole@vancouversun.com Twitter.com/rcamcole

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

[South Pender]

Funny now that Wally is GM he is less likely to say it is not scheme or coaching...lol. Refreshing.

I think that Wally did, in fact, say that it's not scheme or coaching by bringing in 3 key players late in the season--Pierce, Wilson, and Logan. Actions speak louder than words!

I think Wally changed the leadership mix by bringing in those guys and it turned out to be a very, very smart move.

However there was a larger message too that was delivered during their struggles that the coaches responded to and now this Lions team is heading to Regina where we actually now can realistically think they have a chance to win.

Top of mind for Skulsky (marketing) and Buono is they both must account to the owner for the season's lousy numbers at the gate on those final home dates plus most importantly the loss of a home play off date.

This is for me refreshing from Wally from when he was HC and GM and spoke of execution by players so much and so often that it droves fans and media nuts. Unlike Hervey he has kept this at the right level.

Buono’s 15 minutes of fume

General manager demands improvement from Lions players and coaching staff

BY ED WILLES, THE PROVINCE OCTOBER 23, 2013

“Right now, honestly, we’ve got to improve,” said the Lions’ resident icon when asked about the condition of his team. “It’s a struggle. When one side’s playing well, the other side (messes, or words to that effect) the bed. When the other side’s playing well, the other side (has the same problem with) the bed.

“I think we have to become singular minded as a team — that’s the coaches and the players — so the debacle that happened in Saskatchewan doesn’t happen again.”

This is not how Wally used to talk when he was HC - so he has altered his message now that he is GM alone:

“We’re running out of mulligans,” he said. “We’ve got to accept that we’re going to war with a young quarterback (Thomas DeMarco). We have to help him to be able to deal with the pressures and expectations of winning. I just don’t think we’re doing that.

“Yes, he’s got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too.”

That comment sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Buono was then asked if it’s incumbent on the coaches to come up with a game plan that minimizes the risks with a young quarterback while playing to his strengths and to the strengths of the team.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Buono ... story.html

And in THE SUN to Cam Cole Wally had this to say:

"I understand that the critical thing is the product on the field. But a lot of times, coaches are young people who are given opportunities and we give them maybe too much status or power. That's earned, it's not given," said Buono.

"See, a guy that took over (legendary Edmonton coach) Hugh Campbell's position got Hugh Campbell status, as far as whatever he says is law. Well, he's not earned that yet. Hugh Campbell earned it, because he won five Grey Cups. When he said boo, hey, you should flinch. He's earned that. What happens sometimes is you get people who hire a coach and they give him a status that's not earned. And this is why organizations tumble.

"So this is why I think mentoring, cultivating, patience, encouragement are so important. Because you're putting your organization in this man's hands. You can't just say, 'I'm going to back off and put it all on him.' That's not fair to him. That's why these guys fail. You've got to support them, give them what they need, and they're going to go through tough times. Right now, this is a tough time."

"The point is, this team can do that. But we can't piss away opportunities, we've gotta line up and play good football. There's no team in this league today that I believe is that much superior to everybody. But you gotta go out and make plays."

It didn't sound like a request.

ccole@vancouversun.com Twitter.com/rcamcole

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Frankly, Toppy, I'm not sure just what your point is in all of this. First, you say that Wally's comment that “Yes, he’s [DeMarco] got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too” "sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff" (the latter quote yours). Why, necessarily? Couldn't it just as easily mean that the "people around him" are the players that are in there with him? For example, if Harris was doing a better job of running the ball, or the O-line was giving better protection, DeMarco would be able to have greater success?

You and MLF seem to think that any defense of the management and coaches during the season is somehow ill-considered. That the failures are entirely the fault of the coaches and Wally. Let's put this in a clearer framework; and let me preface all this by saying that I'm not suggesting that blaming is a good thing, but since much of the discussion has been on assessing blame, let me note the following. There is a continuum of blame. Let's call it the 2013 BC Lions Continuum of Blame. It runs from a pole on the far left labeled "Entirely management and coaches" to a pole on the far right labeled "Entirely the players." My position is somewhere in the middle--that is, this season's failures stem from a mixture of some suboptimal recruiting and coaching decisions and some poor play from players that was not the direct result of their coaching. MLF (and, it would seem, you) are sitting at the left pole of the continuum. MLF blames all offensive failures on Chapdelaine (even though some of the coaching blame may lie with the position-group coaches). Oddly enough, he accuses me, in his post a few back in this thread, of being "difficult to engage in any 'conversation' because there is no middle ground." This is nonsense, as my position is that our offensive difficulties have not been ALL on Chapdelaine, although some of them have resulted from various coaching misjudgments (some by other coaches than Chaps). That IS the middle ground. So let's forget about MLF, as he's hugging the left pole of the continuum (and specifically that part of it belonging to Chaps) with all his might, and, by God, he's not going to let go!

But how about you, Toppy? How, exactly, would you apportion the blame? Do you see it as (a) entirely the coaching (MLF), (b) mainly the coaching, with some due to the execution by the players, (c) a roughly equal combination of both, (d) mainly player execution, with some due to poor coaching, or (e) entirely player execution? Are you still teaming up with MLF and seeing all of the offensive woes as Chaps' fault? Even though (a) three new players have made a very positive difference (indicating that prior to this addition of players, we weren't getting enough from our existing guys) and (b) new offensive-line adjustments have resulted in better play (i.e., that Chaps and his assistants can, in fact, adjust as conditions dictate this)? You have accused Wally of making a "very, very smart move" (by bringing in the new players), so it would seem to follow that you aren't solidly at the left (coaching) pole of this continuum, but it's hard to tell.

[DanoT]

It all comes down to $ or in this case ticket sales. There are a growing number of Lions fans who are frustrated by the Lions under performing Offence and poor play calling. The simple solution to help boost ticket sales is to change some of the O coaches. People are not going to pay so see the same old same old from stubborn OC and OL coaches who only make changes when absolutely forced to do it.

The best example is the lack of doing anything to counter act a blitzing D, very few screen passes, running plays, quick slants, moving the pocket and point of launch for a play, etc. The most frustrating thing is that this has been going on for years.

In case you haven't guessed yet, I'm in the shake up the coaching staff with new blood part of the graph.

[David]

I am more than fine with some fresh blood and new ideas on the offensive side of the ball for 2014. The Lions can blame execution 'til the cows come home - and to a certain extent they're right. But the perception among the ticket buying public is that our playbook is stale and predictable. It is therefore reality.

The $64,000 question for me is: why did it take until Week 16 to dumb down the blocking schemes, so we could get some semblance of a ground attack and better protection for our quarterbacks??


DH

[Toppy Vann]

SOUTH PENDER:

"Frankly, Toppy, I'm not sure just what your point is in all of this. First, you say that Wally's comment that “Yes, he’s [DeMarco] got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too” "sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff" (the latter quote yours). Why, necessarily? Couldn't it just as easily mean that the "people around him" are the players that are in there with him? For example, if Harris was doing a better job of running the ball, or the O-line was giving better protection, DeMarco would be able to have greater success?"

South Pender -
You have some audacity to accuse me of putting my OWN words into Ed Willes' article when I provided the link with it where you could have checked if you had doubts and done this before making a serious accusation like that.

I did not post the whole story as that is a violation of the rules allowing fair quotes from stories BUT not the entire story. I take this stuff seriously.

I did not alter the story and what was in the quote box was directly from the story.

The fact that I did not put quotes around the entire story does not excuse from making such a serious and FALSE accusation for what purpose I am not sure.

However, there is a bit of a disturbing patter and pattern to your debate in this forum and I find that very distasteful as it is personal and in this case clearly you are wrong.

This is the headline and the quote in question does not contain any of my words.

Buono’s 15 minutes of fume

General manager demands improvement from Lions players and coaching staff

BY ED WILLES, THE PROVINCE OCTOBER 23, 2013

"“We’re running out of mulligans,” he said. “We’ve got to accept that we’re going to war with a young quarterback (Thomas DeMarco). We have to help him to be able to deal with the pressures and expectations of winning. I just don’t think we’re doing that.

“Yes, he’s got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too.”

That comment sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Buono was then asked if it’s incumbent on the coaches to come up with a game plan that minimizes the risks with a young quarterback while playing to his strengths and to the strengths of the team."

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Buono ... story.html

[Blitz]

I am more than fine with some fresh blood and new ideas on the offensive side of the ball for 2014. The Lions can blame execution 'til the cows come home - and to a certain extent they're right. But the perception among the ticket buying public is that our playbook is stale and predictable. It is therefore reality.

The $64,000 question for me is: why did it take until Week 16 to dumb down the blocking schemes, so we could get some semblance of a ground attack and better protection for our quarterbacks??


DH

Angus Reid wrote an article recently that discussed this topic. He said, going from memory that our Leos anticipated that he would be the center this season and along with Fabian's excellent camp the coaching staff felt that the scheme they were using would be successful. It basically was, even with Reid out until Fabian got hurt.

A blocking scheme change is a rarity for a team during a season. Off-season and training camp are where blocking schemes are implemented or polished. Our Leos stayed with the blocking scheme and tried to get better at it, which is usual. We already changed our blocking scheme in 2011 to a man scheme from the previous zone blocking scheme with Kelly Bates having a lot of imput into that decision. Most pro teams do not change their blocking schemes every year or even close.

However, with four games to go we changed it. It was a risk to do so.....with not much practice time and few games remaining in the season. That is a rare scenario and a very difficult thing to do. Its worked so far, with a lot of extra effort from everyone involved.

Hope it works in Regina.

[MexicoLionFan]

This season has been a mess, regardless of our record...and it stems from Lulay taking a beating at the beginning of the season, week after week, when EVERY defence blitzed us mercilessly and we did NOTHING about...until it was too late...Lulay was injured, exposing himself to a huge hit knowingly to seal a must win game, and DeMarco came in and was spoon fed effectively for 2 and 1/2 games before he was unleashed to this full brilliant offensive system...then he started taking a pounding and suddenly the 2nd coming of Joe Kapp (only on Lionsbackers) lost his nerve and his aim and fell to the bottom of the depth chart...then Buck Pierce saved the day against a horrible team, at home, in a meaningless game, until he faced some pressure early in the CGY game and lost his nerve and aim, only to be bailed out by the now healthy Travis Lulay...

See a pattern??? I am tired of playing little word games here...JC is completely to blame for our offensive problems because he has known for YEARS how DCs attack his offence and has DONE NOTHING to alter his game plan, without direct threats to his job security, and then we see changes...

Our invisible HC disappeared late in the season, only to be replaced as HC by our GM, who brought in replacements and demanded that we have a run game...suddenly we do...nice job Chaps...ahead of the curve as always...

I am not going to debate this further...if someone does not see how the first half of this season was defined by Lulay getting beaten to a pulp by constantly blitzing defences with NO adjustments to alter their plans, then its no use conversing with them...you are not based in reality...everything else this season is just the aftermath and made for some interesting discussion...but the fact remains that many Lions fans here have been quite content to dump the Lion's early season problems on Lulay and have been prepared to dump him to Ottawa next season and move forward with DeMarco...I was keeled over in laughter reading some of this stuff during the remarkable 2-1 run by the amazing DeMarco...then his wheels came off, and suddenly Buck Pierce is the answer...WOW...

Until the OC and the OLine coach on this team leave, our offensive woes will continue and our dwindling fan base will continue to dwindle...the Lions are no longer the "cheap" alternative to the Canuckleheads, its expensive to see Lions games, and there has to be value to the casual fan for them to get in their car and see a game live...Travis Lulay is the NOW and the future of this football team, because he is the real deal as a football player, and the Lions need to do whatever they can to AID him, and not thwart him!

[South Pender]

SOUTH PENDER:

"Frankly, Toppy, I'm not sure just what your point is in all of this. First, you say that Wally's comment that “Yes, he’s [DeMarco] got to step up his game but the people around him have to step up their game, too” "sounded like it was aimed at the Lions coaching staff" (the latter quote yours). Why, necessarily? Couldn't it just as easily mean that the "people around him" are the players that are in there with him? For example, if Harris was doing a better job of running the ball, or the O-line was giving better protection, DeMarco would be able to have greater success?"

South Pender -
You have some audacity to accuse me of putting my OWN words into Ed Willes' article when I provided the link with it where you could have checked if you had doubts and done this before making a serious accusation like that.

I did not post the whole story as that is a violation of the rules allowing fair quotes from stories BUT not the entire story. I take this stuff seriously.

I did not alter the story and what was in the quote box was directly from the story.

The fact that I did not put quotes around the entire story does not excuse from making such a serious and FALSE accusation for what purpose I am not sure.

However, there is a bit of a disturbing patter and pattern to your debate in this forum and I find that very distasteful as it is personal and in this case clearly you are wrong.

This is the headline and the quote in question does not contain any of my words.

OK, Toppy, I apologize for making that mistake. I assumed that the inference was yours because it was printed without the quotes that would identify it as someone else's. I think that's a natural mistake that points to neither audacity nor the making of any accusation, false or otherwise. I read your presentation of the conversation, but didn't read the original article since I had assumed that the important part was what you had reprinted. When you produce quoted material, misunderstandings like this can be avoided by using single quotes inside double quotes. Had you done that I would have known that the statement that was not in quotes (as I would have expected it to be) was not yours but that of the author of the article. So, let's not get your knickers into too much of a twist over this, OK? There was no attempt to make any kind of accusation, but merely wondering why anyone (thinking it was you) would assume that the term "people around him [DeMarco]" would necessarily have to refer to the coaching staff and not, just as reasonably, to his teammates. Oh, by the way, there was absolutely nothing personal in asking that question.

[Toppy Vann]

While MLF has some things right about the season progression and the hits on Lulay, I don't think the conclusion is right that we need coaches to be toasted.

I can't see ONE team in the CFL that benefits from constant turnover while the Lions and fans benefit from stability. I would like to see them add a real RB coach with some decent thinking on plays and force JC to use this or he gets executive as I disagree with using a former OL. Jarius would be better than Bates as he at least sees the backs work better over his playing career and give Bates a more OL oriented role as he apparently is a very good coach.

As to how the GM took over from the HC - interesting perspective! I like this HC and think he as a lot going for him. I think Mike B suffers a bit from not having his own clear philosophy for offence and his public dabbling with the we're just plug and play version of how they operate was ill - fated and not brilliant. He took over a successful ship and just went with the flow and now needs to articulate a better vision for this offence and this team for next year.

Wally has uncharacteristically come out with guns semi-blazing on the critique of the team and coaches and this was never done when he was part of the crew. Only recall one time when he finally admitted they needed to tune up the offensive run schemes but that came painfully late.

Mike Benevides needs to clarify for next year a clear view on what the Lion offence is going to be about and hold JC to the fire to execute that view (more balance on run v. pass) and better protection for the QB.

As to Lulay - honestly - that bad hit he took should and could have been avoided. Step out and then let Harris carry it in would have been my idea of success on that run of his that put him out.

Wally was smart to change the mix and the chemistry in the club with Wilson, Logan and Buck Pierce. He saw some missing pieces in more than ways than one and MB has embraced them all.

JC needs direction not an exit ticket.

[South Pender]

One of the reasons I think that it's just wrong and unfair to blame Chapdelaine solely (as at least one or a few do) for what some refer to as a "mess" of a season is that, although it's a bit of a cliche, the saying that "offense sells tickets, but defense wins championships" is true. One vivid demonstration of this can be seen by considering the fact that, on August 22 in Montreal, had Dante Marsh not missed deflecting a 57-yard pass from Tanner Marsh (a rookie who passed against us for 329 yards in that game) to Eric Deslaurier with one second remaining on the clock, the Lions would be 12-6 and hosting the Western semi-final. (Maybe a 2nd-place finish and 12-6 record wouldn't be considered a "mess.") In any case, some may try to blame Chaps for that play, or, the fairer-minded might blame Stubler, but the fact is that it was a single instance of poor (dreadful) player execution that was the deciding factor. It's never entirely on the coaches; player execution is always a factor too.

For anyone feeling masochistic, here's an 8-minute video of that game. The play that had so much to do with our 2013 season occurs at about the 7:30 mark of the video:

http://www.cfl.ca/video/index/id/88237