The Old 4 Discussion

[B.C.FAN]

THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES:

Paul McCallum: His field goal kicking was as solid as ever in the second half of the season and he had one of his best punting days of the season in the West Final but he doesn't have the leg of younger punters. It's time for Hugh O'Neil.

Geroy Simon: He's become an expensive decoy, a reliable possession receiver on second an medium but not much more. No speed to stretch defences. I hope he hangs up his cleats and looks back with pride at an outstanding career.

Jon Hameister-Ries: He's their best interior lineman when healthy but he's only had one health season in six years as a Lion. The Lions need to build around a more reliable foundation.

Jesse Newman: He gave it his all in the West Final. I don't think his heart or his knees will want to try a comeback.

Paris Jackson: He's gone from a starter to a rotation player to a locker room guy. The Lions could use that roster spot to develop another non-import who could play a bigger role on special teams. It wouldn'thave to be a seventh receiver.

Khreem Smith: The Lions have been looking to replace their oldest defensive lineman for two seasons but he's always come up big when needed and beaten back all challengers. There is nothing wrong with his play, as his 7 sacks this year show. But Brandon Jordan has shown enough to warrant a starting spot, and Smith's position is purrfect for him.


IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT

Arland Bruce: He still has gas in the tank. While he couldn't get open deep this year, he can be a veteran asset on a young and gree receiving corps. If Gore goes to the nFL, the Lions need Bruce back. It's too soon to rely entirely on Nick Moore, Ernest Jackson, Courtney Taylor and Marco Iannuzzi. That's too much like the failed experiment of 2011, when Geroy Simon opened the season as the only starter who had ever caught a CFL pass.

Angus Reid: He plays with heart and brains and with a smile on his face, and seemed to be fit and healthy at the end of the season. He has shown that he can pull and be a lead blocker for the run game, and he knows where to be and where everyone else should be. He's also a great ambassador for the team. If the Lions intend to start two young, inexperienced guards next year, Reid's veteran presence and mentorship will be even more vital.

Solomon Elimimian and Anton McKenzie: The Lions can keep one or the other, but not both. McKenzie is 31 and has been the quiet leader of the front-7. Elimimian is 26 and and has more upside but may not want to be here. He holds the cards.


KEEPERS

Shawn Gore: Give him some of Simon and Bruce's money and build the receiving corps around him. His future is here, not the NFL. He has the talent to be a 1,000-yard receiver. He just hasn't had enough touches with Simon and Bruce starting in the slots.

Patrick Kabongo: The emergency traing camp fill-in played a big role down the stretch and played arguably his best football of the season. He also seemed happy with his role. He can be just as valuable in that role next year, especially if the Lions gamble on inexperienced Matt Norman and possibly Kirby Fabien.

Dean Valli: His has good girth, as Dan Dorazio once said, and has the strength to blow holes open for the run game. His experience and versatility will be assets, even in a reduced role.

[cromartie]

Patrick Kabongo -- Great contribution, but his best time is past

On this, at least, I disagree. I think Kabongo did fine. You need either a starting guard or a swing guard and he's under contract at a reasonable price. Bring him back.

[The_Pauser]

I don't understand all the talk about releasing Simon and Bruce. These two are two of our top receivers and provide veteran leadership that we need. Neither of them look bad out there, and while they may lack deep threat separation they still are very clutch and come up with big catches. I am not a Nick Moore fan at all due to all his drops, and would hate to see one or both of these legends replaced by him. Actually the only way I would be comfortable with letting one of these two go is if we are able to being back Manny Arceneaux.

[Blue In BC]

I don't understand all the talk about releasing Simon and Bruce. These two are two of our top receivers and provide veteran leadership that we need. Neither of them look bad out there, and while they may lack deep threat separation they still are very clutch and come up with big catches. I am not a Nick Moore fan at all due to all his drops, and would hate to see one or both of these legends replaced by him. Actually the only way I would be comfortable with letting one of these two go is if we are able to being back Manny Arceneaux.

Not hard to understand. Age, injuries becoming more of a factor. SMS and the need to get younger and faster.

Case in point. The Stamps added Price to their roster late this season. He probably is getting CFL minimum and may have been the best import receiver on the field yesterday and in his 4 or 5 games as a Stamp.

Nik Lewis is their best overall receiver but was a non factor yesterday.

If you could magically trade either Bruce or Simon for Price to play for the Lions in 2013 would you do it? How about Chris Mathews. C Owens?

Neither the Stamps or Bombers would trade that talent, youth and low SMS for Bruce or Simon.

[The_Pauser]

Except Bruce and Simon are both still very productive and there was lots of discussion that the Lions needed to get the ball to them even more than they had been.

If we had a Chris Matthews or Chad Owens then we could look at moving one of our higher priced receivers. But we don't. None of Moore, Jackson or Taylor look like they have the same explosiveness as the former. And sure age is creeping up on Simon and Bruce, but they're still effective receivers. I don't think anyone has really proven enough to displace these guys. I certainly haven't seen anyone outplay Simon and Bruce.

[aklawitter]

since this seems like the most appropriate place to put this...

in the ideal situation for next year where everybody is under contract and you only have to worry about cuts and retirements and replacements for said cuts and retirements

Hamster and Newman are likely retiring due to chronic injuries.

(ratio-compliant)

Weak Side WR: E. Jackson / C. Taylor
Weak Side SB: Gore (ratio beneficiary)
LT: Archibald
LG: ??? Norman?
C: ??? Reid? Draft a Ben Heenan 2.0?
RG: ??? Norman? Definitely need to improve over Valli.
RT: Olafioye (but he is likely off to the NFL again)
Strong Side SB: Simon
Strong Side WR: C. Taylor / E. Jackson
5th Rec: Moore / Foster
QB: Duh
FB: Lumbala / Foord
RB: Duh

Weak Side CB: ??? Phillips?
Weak Side HB: Phillips? ???
S: ??? Need to improve over Muamba.
Weak Side LB: ??? Do we stay with a hybrid LB like Reddick / Shell? Or do we go with a more traditional LB? Or do we go with a more traditional cover guy? Banks was good in this role, but that leaves a hole...
(I will say that I have never been a big fan of the 2 LB + Hybrid LB system that is popular right now)
MLB: Bighill. No questions asked. Solly was a distraction this year, and really is better off being The Man somewhere else.
Strong Side LB: McKenzie
Strong Side HB: Banks, depending on other roster shuffles.
Strong Side CB: Marsh
DE: Smith
DT: Westerman (ratio beneficiary)
DT: E. Taylor
DE: Williams
5th DL: Jordan (reminds me of Jamall Johnson when he first started)

K/P: ??? McCallum simply doesn't have the leg to impact field position, and punting from the opponents' 40 is never acceptable.
KR/PR: Brown? Is it worth it to consistently start at our own 35 but take time off the clock to do so? Or do we try to find a Bashir Levingston type home-run hitter but take the occasional strikeout?

[Spud387]

Except Bruce and Simon are both still very productive and there was lots of discussion that the Lions needed to get the ball to them even more than they had been.

If we had a Chris Matthews or Chad Owens then we could look at moving one of our higher priced receivers. But we don't. None of Moore, Jackson or Taylor look like they have the same explosiveness as the former. And sure age is creeping up on Simon and Bruce, but they're still effective receivers. I don't think anyone has really proven enough to displace these guys. I certainly haven't seen anyone outplay Simon and Bruce.

However you have to remember, to replace the old with young when you have the young players to develop. What happens in 1-2 years years & Moore, Taylor, Jackson have moved on?

IMHO
Simon is back 100%. Maybe at a reduced salary, but him being a Lion will makes the Lions $$ at the gate. Also, breaking the receiving record is a big deal, Lions will want him to do that for marketing purposes.

I think Reid retires under his own choice even if the Lions want him back.

I do not think we see Bruce back.

McCallum will handle field goal kicking duties, O'Neil will handle punting as they transition. Or Paul retires outright because he doesn't like the reduced role.

[Rammer]

Except Bruce and Simon are both still very productive and there was lots of discussion that the Lions needed to get the ball to them even more than they had been.

If we had a Chris Matthews or Chad Owens then we could look at moving one of our higher priced receivers. But we don't. None of Moore, Jackson or Taylor look like they have the same explosiveness as the former. And sure age is creeping up on Simon and Bruce, but they're still effective receivers. I don't think anyone has really proven enough to displace these guys. I certainly haven't seen anyone outplay Simon and Bruce.

However you have to remember, to replace the old with young when you have the young players to develop. What happens in 1-2 years years & Moore, Taylor, Jackson have moved on?

IMHO
Simon is back 100%. Maybe at a reduced salary, but him being a Lion will makes the Lions $$ at the gate. Also, breaking the receiving record is a big deal, Lions will want him to do that for marketing purposes.

I think Reid retires under his own choice even if the Lions want him back.

I do not think we see Bruce back.

McCallum will handle field goal kicking duties, O'Neil will handle punting as they transition. Or Paul retires outright because he doesn't like the reduced role.

Going to argue on the McCallum vs O'Neill combinatiojn, that will be a one player job, and O'Neill is the heir apparent. Agree on the rest, other than a Geroy reduction, if that happens it has to be on Geroy's part, as he has a deal for 2013 already in place.

[B.C.FAN]

The number of big pass plays of 30 yards or more was up 25% across the league this year. The Lions' number was down 32% from 28 in 2011 (third in the league) to 19 in 2012 (last in the league). Some of that was due to Lulay's shoulder but much was due to Simon and Bruce being unable to get separation. Bruce had 6 catches of 30 yards in 2011 and 3 in 2012. Simon had 9 in 2011 and 2 in 2012. Calgary's ability to go deep, coupled with the Lions' inability to do so, was the difference on Sunday. That has to be fixed by next year. It won't be fixed with the same players in the lineup.

[Blue In BC]

Except Bruce and Simon are both still very productive and there was lots of discussion that the Lions needed to get the ball to them even more than they had been.

If we had a Chris Matthews or Chad Owens then we could look at moving one of our higher priced receivers. But we don't. None of Moore, Jackson or Taylor look like they have the same explosiveness as the former. And sure age is creeping up on Simon and Bruce, but they're still effective receivers. I don't think anyone has really proven enough to displace these guys. I certainly haven't seen anyone outplay Simon and Bruce.

I would argue that both are still or will be productive. Neither will be younger or faster next year. If they were NI's you might want to hang onto one or the other as possession receivers. At the right price you still might.

Neither of these guys is likely to work cheap and both are now on the downside of their careers. It's possible there might be a fit as insurance somewhere on the roster but will either take that sort of reduced role and reduced salary?

It's a hard pill to swallow for any veteran but to each comes that day.

[cromartie]

I don't understand all the talk about releasing Simon and Bruce. These two are two of our top receivers and provide veteran leadership that we need. Neither of them look bad out there, and while they may lack deep threat separation they still are very clutch and come up with big catches. I am not a Nick Moore fan at all due to all his drops, and would hate to see one or both of these legends replaced by him. Actually the only way I would be comfortable with letting one of these two go is if we are able to being back Manny Arceneaux.

You have too many possession guys and not enough deep threats. One or two of the possession guys have to go in favor of speed guys. Age is the primary factor in this decision.

[TheLionKing]

I don't understand all the talk about releasing Simon and Bruce. These two are two of our top receivers and provide veteran leadership that we need. Neither of them look bad out there, and while they may lack deep threat separation they still are very clutch and come up with big catches. I am not a Nick Moore fan at all due to all his drops, and would hate to see one or both of these legends replaced by him. Actually the only way I would be comfortable with letting one of these two go is if we are able to being back Manny Arceneaux.

You have too many possession guys and not enough deep threats. One or two of the possession guys have to go in favor of speed guys. Age is the primary factor in this decision.

I concur. The CFL is a passing league. You need fleet footed receivers that can stretch the field and force them to defend the entire the field. Bruce and Simon no longer has the speed to strike fear in the defenders

[JohnHenry]

The Lions would be foolish to release veteran starters before they know they have adequate replacements...unless that player has shown a marked drop-off in his play. To me, Geroy seems like the same reliable receiver he was 3 or 4 years ago, perhaps with not quite the quickness he once had. I don't see anything wrong with Arland, other than his supposed advancing age. Has he dropped more than 1 pass since he came to the Lions? Won't B. Archibald be 34 next year? If Olifoyie leaves, should we make it a clean sweep of our OL and start off fresh?

Just because a player reaches a certain age, that doesn't automatically mean they're over-the-hill. Look at Sam Mills, NFL LB. After being released by the Argos, at 27 he signs on with the Saints. Mills ends up making over 1100 tackles in his next 11 seasons. Too small and too old.

Geroy is a special case because his of high-standing with the team and community...and his high salary. But even with his salary cut in half, it still might be better for the Lions to go with a young receiver next season. In that case, Geroy might be a better fit in Edm or Regina. But I'll bet the Lions can work something out to keep him in Vancouver.

I don't care how old Banks and Marsh are. They have to play a couple more years at least. I don't see any drop-off in their play or they've become slow. The Lions should start a young cornerback next year in place of #28. The Lions are probably stuck with Muamba. They can't start 12 imports on defence can they? Or perhaps they could trade for a Canadian DB?

[Rodu]

Do people actually think Gore is NFL bound? I didn't think his numbers were good enough to get that league's attention

[The_Pauser]

Bruce and Simon were not the problem. They have played well and been very reliable when thrown to. The problem is they haven't been thrown to as often as they probably should have been, and when they have their routes have been lousy. Simon needs to get balls thrown to him that aren't just 5 yard dump offs, and with the amount of balls Nick Moore drops I really would rather stick with what we have. I agree we need a deep threat though, and I think Ernest Jackson can fill that role.

Unless someone like Manny Arceneaux comes back, there's no reason to dump Simon or Bruce. Taylor has looked good, but I'm not sure about him and Jackson as full-time starters just yet, and certainly not our go-to receivers. I also think we might need to look to replace Foster with an upgrade. He had a horrendous year.