The Old 4 Discussion

[WestCoastJoe]

Comes a time when you have to move on.

All four mentioned by Rammer need to look at transition. Injuries. Losing speed. Can't get separation. Can't get deep. For 64, can't match up physically. For PMc ... why keep a first round pick without giving him a chance, for two years?

Plus, sad to say, I think we need to move on from Dean Valli. How? Dunno, we are so thin in the O Line. But he is about useless. Sorry to say that. And this is especially tough since JonHR and Newman may well retire early. Need to pick up some serviceable free agents methinks. And I know this will sound mean or cruel, but it might be time for Dan Dorazio to transition also.

I suppose it's my current state of mind. But if you're really going to wipe the slate clean, you sweep out all four, figure Newman will retire, Mitchell will be released, Hamster may retire and Reilly is a free agent. You'd like to do better than Valli, also. Reddick is a FA. Paris Jackson is getting long in the tooth. Muamba hurts us in critical situations.

The more interesting question is, what to do with the secondary?

We might get by with those guys. But we need a six man D Line rotation to make it work. Solo coming back made us honour him. And we were never the same. And he may be trying the NFL again. And failing ... again.

[cromartie]

We might get by with those guys. But we need a six man D Line rotation to make it work. Solo coming back made us honour him. And we were never the same. And he may be trying the NFL again. And failing ... again.

I would agree on this Three guys, Olafioye, Gore, and SolE, will give some thought to trying the NFL. None of them should.

[Rammer]

We might get by with those guys. But we need a six man D Line rotation to make it work. Solo coming back made us honour him. And we were never the same. And he may be trying the NFL again. And failing ... again.

I would agree on this Three guys, Olafioye, Gore, and SolE, will give some thought to trying the NFL. None of them should.

Not sure on Olafioye and Gore, but SolE seems like he is determined to make a spot on an NFL team. Funny, as in reflection his return seemed to hurt our lineup more than help it. That was a concern when he was returning, but to see how little they could use him and his roster spot took away a strength on the DL, well it just shouldn't be.

[WestCoastJoe]

No point in trying to sugar coat dismissal slips. Try as one might.

These gentlemen need to prepare for transition ...

Arland Bruce -- Father Time. Time for the pro to move on. Key to our 2011 Cup.

Geroy Simon -- Father Time. At his pay scale, one needs to be a game breaker. Can't see Geroy accepting a backup role.

Angus Reid -- Father Time. Overmatched physically.

Paul McCallum -- Father Time. Time to move on after a Hall of Fame career.

Solomon Elimimian -- Not near to what he was in 2011 or 2010

Jon Hameister Ries -- Big heart, but his body was letting him down

Jesse Newman -- His knees are done, great effort in the WDF

Khalif Mitchell -- He let his own struggles affect the team
...............

On the bubble ...

Dean Valli -- Just not getting the job done, after all these years

Byron Parker -- The gambler got caught

Patrick Kabongo -- Great contribution, but his best time is past
.............

Paris Jackson -- If Paris wishes to return in his support role, that is fine. He is a great team guy.

............

It is a question of age, or diminishing skills, or loss of speed, or just a need to get more competitive.

Football teams cannot stand pat, especially after a disappointing season.
...........

It is amazing how fragile a team can be. What has looked at times like a dynamo, now looks old and vulnerable. It will take a lot of wisdom to remain as competitive next year as we were this year. Building around Travis Lulay and Andrew Harris and Adam Bighill is a great start.

[Big Time]

My two cents...

Arland Bruce. Love what the guy brought to the team however I don't see him sticking around next year. He still has game however at his price, will he accept a part time role? Doubt it. He'll be cut.

Geroy Simon. If I were to choose between Bruce and Simon, I would normally go with the younger guy. However Simon has meant a lot to this franchise and I think he should be brought back under the right circumstances. If he is willing to accept a reduced role that is more about mentorship, and more importantly, a big reduction in price, then keep him. It seemed like this year they never threw him balls longer than 15 yards. He is still effective and I think has a role on the team.

McCallum. Comes down to whether they can find a younger kicker out there. He doesn't have the leg to punt or kick long distance anymore. I'd say it's 50/50 on his return.

Reid. Another 50/50. The lack of a suitable replacement works in his favor. The question of whether he still has fire in the belly is another.

Other notables: I'm quite certain Gore will go for the NFL. If he's back, they should make him more of a focal point of the offense.

Mitchell - Not sure what his plans are but I don't care if he comes back or not.

Muamba/Parker - gone.

Needs: Safety, punter, and you can never have too many offensive lineman.

Oh yeah, and a new offensive coordinator but I've been saying that since 2004 with the exception of that one year Chap was in Edmonton.

[Rammer]

My two cents...

Arland Bruce. Love what the guy brought to the team however I don't see him sticking around next year. He still has game however at his price, will he accept a part time role? Doubt it. He'll be cut.

Geroy Simon. If I were to choose between Bruce and Simon, I would normally go with the younger guy. However Simon has meant a lot to this franchise and I think he should be brought back under the right circumstances. If he is willing to accept a reduced role that is more about mentorship, and more importantly, a big reduction in price, then keep him. It seemed like this year they never threw him balls longer than 15 yards. He is still effective and I think has a role on the team.

McCallum. Comes down to whether they can find a younger kicker out there. He doesn't have the leg to punt or kick long distance anymore. I'd say it's 50/50 on his return.

Reid. Another 50/50. The lack of a suitable replacement works in his favor. The question of whether he still has fire in the belly is another.

Other notables: I'm quite certain Gore will go for the NFL. If he's back, they should make him more of a focal point of the offense.

Mitchell - Not sure what his plans are but I don't care if he comes back or not.

Muamba/Parker - gone.

Needs: Safety, punter, and you can never have too many offensive lineman.

Oh yeah, and a new offensive coordinator but I've been saying that since 2004 with the exception of that one year Chap was in Edmonton.

I won't argue with you on most, but Muamba is still on the learning curve, give him TC competition and let the best man take the starting spot.

Funny how Chap is beginning to feel the heat once again. I think that his game plan this season revolves more around our D being so dominant, no need to push the risk factor. However with all our success using this style for the regular season, we just didn't have a 4th gear to go on O when needed, let alone a 5th gear.

Thinking that Benevides was a more aggressive HC than Wally may have stalled when out D began winning games for us. But time after time, it is proven that you have to play to win, it allows you to find a higher level of safe play, especially on O. Lions played once again not to lose on O, very much reminiscent of the Wally HC playoff years.

IIRC WestCoastJoe always made mention the the Lions were in front of the pack for talent/ability, but noted that the pack wasn't as far back as one would think. That was never more evident than after yesterday's result. The Stamps were the better prepared team on the day, yet I still don't think that the talent is where the Lions talent is on paper. So in the end, it is a coaches result, either not motivating the Lions, anticipating Stampeder tendencies, or a poor game plan, I am thinking the latter.

[almo89]

As old as Reid as, he's still currently the best person at that position. They tried Valli at centre and it was a disaster. I wonder if they'll ask him to play another year if they have problems finding a centre in the off season.

[Big Time]

This one came down to coaching. A lot of times you'll hear people say that it's up to the players to execute. Well, I'm not sure that was the case yesterday on offense. Personally, I've always hated those long throws to the sidelines that result in about 5 yard pick ups. Why throw 20 yards to the sideline for a short gain when you can stretch the defense vertically? They did this over, and over again yesterday. One of my biggest pet peeves is when they are throwing on second and long and they throw a 3 yard wide out pass with the hopes that the receiver will get enough YAC yards to pick up the first down. Sadly, this type of play has been a staple of Chapball for his entire career. I look back on our "glory years" and sadly, it mostly represents missed opportunities. Between 2004-2007 they could have won four straight Grey Cups. Yet they only made it to two Grey Cup games and won once. The 2004 Grey Cup was the single worst coaching performance I have seen in a championship game ever. However even in the 2006 Grey Cup the Lions consistently settled for field goals when they could have blown Montreal away. They got the result but that conservative play calling was at the root of the 2007 WF loss and was the same yesterday.

As for the defense, Stubler is a high risk, high reward type of coach. He believes in blitzes and mixing things up. However every time they gambled they got burned. He had no answers for anything yesterday. Rush three at the front is generally a terrible idea no matter what - see Grey Cup 2004 for a clinic on why you shouldn't only rush three. Glenn just sat back and torched the secondary. Last night was not the defense's day but even a modest amount of production on offense and the Lions could have won a game they didn't deserve.

Another wasted opportunity in the Wally era.

[SammyGreene]

Funny how Chap is beginning to feel the heat once again. I think that his game plan this season revolves more around our D being so dominant, no need to push the risk factor. However with all our success using this style for the regular season, we just didn't have a 4th gear to go on O when needed, let alone a 5th gear.

I think the only times we showed signs of having a 4th gear was when Taylor and Jackson were in the line-up bringing more speed than Simon or Bruce. The wins over Toronto (at home) and at Hamilton come to mind where we actually went vertical quite a bit with success.

That said, I think Chaps had Lulay's rustiness in mind early in the game with a lot of short high percentage passes to try to get him into a rhythm with some confidence. Problem was it put him in a rut instead where there were just little in the way of throws down field.

[almo89]

Funny how Chap is beginning to feel the heat once again. I think that his game plan this season revolves more around our D being so dominant, no need to push the risk factor. However with all our success using this style for the regular season, we just didn't have a 4th gear to go on O when needed, let alone a 5th gear.

I think the only times we showed signs of having a 4th gear was when Taylor and Jackson were in the line-up bringing more speed than Simon or Bruce. The wins over Toronto (at home) and at Hamilton come to mind where we actually went vertical quite a bit with success.

That said, I think Chaps had Lulay's rustiness in mind early in the game with a lot of short high percentage passes to try to get him into a rhythm with some confidence. Problem was it put him in a rut instead where there were just little in the way of throws down field.

I totally agree. As much as the fans and myself have given Chap hell for his playcalling, I think he's been pretty good since the 0-5 start last year all the way up till now. I agree with you Sammy that he knew what he had in Lulay's rustiness. The biggest issue last night was that Simon and Bruce couldn't get open all night. Lulay actually had pretty decent protection last night, but there were so many times where he would progress through his reads and sees nothing and then just run away.

When I look back at the season, the offense was only firing when Simon and Bruce were out. All year long they couldn't get to that fast start, but it happened when Simon and Bruce were out. Tons of tough decisions to make in the off season.

[Lions4ever]

YAC yards

Let's review: The "Y" in "YAC" stands for "Yards" already. No need to do a Rod Black on that one.

[Spud387]

...
McCallum. Comes down to whether they can find a younger kicker out there. He doesn't have the leg to punt or kick long distance anymore. I'd say it's 50/50 on his return.
...

You do know we have another kicker who is supposedly pretty good on our roster right?

[Big Time]

...
McCallum. Comes down to whether they can find a younger kicker out there. He doesn't have the leg to punt or kick long distance anymore. I'd say it's 50/50 on his return.
...

You do know we have another kicker who is supposedly pretty good on our roster right?

How would I know that? He never gets a shot

[WestCoastJoe]

IIRC WestCoastJoe always made mention the the Lions were in front of the pack for talent/ability, but noted that the pack wasn't as far back as one would think. That was never more evident than after yesterday's result. The Stamps were the better prepared team on the day, yet I still don't think that the talent is where the Lions talent is on paper. So in the end, it is a coaches result, either not motivating the Lions, anticipating Stampeder tendencies, or a poor game plan, I am thinking the latter.

Esteemed colleague Rammer. No. LOL

I was always saying that I did not think we were superior in talent. Never in front of the pack.

I said we were of great character, and with great experience. But talent wise, we were no better than anybody else. And weaker in the O Line. And aging in the receiving corps, and not fast when we suit up Geroy and Arland.

Looking at it now, talent wise, I would say, when we suit up 6 D Linemen, we have perhaps the best D Line in the league. With Bighill, McKenzie and Reddick we have as good as, or better than any LB corps in the league. DBs ... experienced, capable of great stuff, capable of some great misses, with some weakness at tackling. O Line ... one of the weakest in the league. Receivers ... average for the league, and that is not complaining, because the league is loaded with sensational receivers. QBs and Running back ... as good as it gets in this league.

Does anyone think we have the best O Line talent in the league, as a group? Or the most talented receiving corps, as suited up yesterday?

[TheLionKing]

I agree with others that Father Time has caught up with Bruce and Simon. I suspect Simon would be asked to return because :

i) he's a crowd favourite
ii) he's close to the CFL record for most receptions