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Toppy Vann wrote:Reed was foolish to make this statement. This is football and discipline is key - any coach who makes a situational judgment like this is not setting the right tone in the team.
What does he do next week if someone lays another late hit on Messam and he retaliates like he did this last week? Does he keep coming out and saying it is okay? I doubt it. What if other players start this? Coaches have to establish that there is basis for you to retaliate and hurt our team. NONE. Leave that for beer leagues.
Exactly. You never punch or kick an opponent, no matter what they do to you. You'll be ejected every time.
I think Reed has been taking lessons in spin from Eric Tillman. Reed knows Messam's ejection is under mandatory league review, and Messam could face a suspension or fine for his actions. What does Reed do? He goes public and blames the Lions for the whole mess, saying that his player was a choirboy who was being picked on and did no wrong. It's all nonsense, just like Tillman's story of how his back medication caused him to unknowingly grope the babysitter. Tillman and Reed both discredit the league.
Admirable that Kavis Reed came to the defence of his players but Messam's undisciplined move got him tossed from the game and a chance for an Edmonton comeback. There is a place and time to exact revenge.
1greatmysticbushape wrote:where's Rob Murphy when you need him.
I saw ample evidence that the spirit of Rob Murphy was present at BC Place on Friday night.
I can't remember the exact time on the clock, but at one point in the third quarter Khalif Mitchell got pancacked by an Evil Empire O-lineman (Tyler?), who just lay on top of him like Shamu getting a belly rub while the play went downfield. The ref hovered over the two of them, his hand clutching his flag ready to let fly, but Khalif just calmly waited for the big tub of goo to get off him, then he headed back to the defensive side of the ball. Classy move to keep his cool, which I suppose is a whole lot easier when you're on a winning streak.
I have no idea whether Jerome Messam will be on the Eskimos roster next year or not. His past issues may follow him or he may mature. He's done a very good job for Edmonton so far, been the CFL Canadian Player of the Week 3 times, and he is one tough load to bring down at 6'3", 245 pounds, as he runs with speed, power, and has moves. He is obviously very talented and Edmonton has utilized those talents while we had him languish on special teams when he was here.
A number of Lionbackers last season wanted a Canadian offensive backfield with Harris, Messam, and Lee. Harris and Messam were also roomates. It was a shame we never got to see that in action.
I have a serious problem with the way Messam's B.C. Lions days ended. I had no problem with Wally suspending Messam at training camp or trading him if that had been Wally and the coaching staff's decision alone. We all know that Messam had some troubles in his past.
However, there were no great sins committed by Messam as a B.C. Lion. Much worse has taken place with a Leo player without the repurcussion that Messam received. He had a mutual dressing room fight with Paris Jackson last season, who got a cracked jaw out of it. Fights are not unusual...in training camps, at preactices, and in dressing rooms on occasion. It just happened to occur between a rookie and a veteran (who I wanted to start this season) but has been known to be mouthy and cocky in the past.
The second 'serious' incident was Messam bringing a girl into his dorm room at training camp this season. Its a violation of rules. The history of training camp hijinks are well known in the annals of professional football. Did Wally or the coaching staff catch Messam breaking this rule. Nope! Other than being inattentive at a controlled scrimmage earlier that week Messam had not been a distraction to the B.C. Lions.
However, certain players took it upon themselves to go to Wally over the training camp incident. One of those was Jamal Robertson, who happens to compete for the position with Jerome Messam and who isn't starting for our Leos anymore.
The Players Council wanted Messam off the team. Who were some of these players? Guys like Angus Reid, Brent Johnson, and Davis Sanchez who isn't even playing anymore and who had only been a Leo himself for one season. In essence the players ratted out Messam and then requested he not be a B.C. Lion anymore.
That is the backdrop to the incident last Friday night. Jerome Messam was no choir boy but the incidents were not that serious to warrent his removal from our Leos team. Nor did Wally consider them serious enough to want Messam gone either and initially only sent him home from training camp after the Players Council imput to 'reconsider his actions. However, he had to be 'voted' back on the team by the Players Council and that didn't happen.
However, Wally went with his Players Council request. We're kind of like a liaison between the coaching staff and the players," explained Sanchez, who declined to comment on Messam's suspension from our Leos at the time. "I'm not getting into that." As reported in the Vancouver Sun at the time Wally said he suspened Messam for the duration of training camp 'to reconsider his actions; after 'consultation with a group of elders', commenting "There was influence from leadership. I don't want to be the leader. I want them to be the leader. Management has done this in support of the team."
However, a small group of players known as the Players Council did. It was the second situation of the Leos Player Council reporting a locker room situation to Wally and requesting the removal of a player over the past two seasons.
I have no problem with a veteran leadership group providing input on strategy or motivation or whether to stay in a hotel prior to a home game etc. I do have a great concern with players informing on their teammates or making player personell decisions. Wally said "I don't want to the the leader' but he is the one who should be in these situations and not a small group of players. Its a very unusual practice to have a committee of players get rid of a teammate, as was said on TSN during the Leos-Edmonton game and prior to the incident.
With that backdrop and the powerful feelings that everyone knows would still be present when a teamate has been removed from a team by his own colleagues and is now starting for another team in a big game, the last thing that should have happened was for Dante Marsh to hit Jerome Messam late in the end zone after he scored a touchdown. It was a cheap shot and Messam reacted by shoving Marsh back. It should have ended there but Kournegay jumped in. Messam threw punches at Kournegay, which was completely wrong and then Messam was jumped by four B.C. Lions. There was more than enough fault to go around.
However, the backdrop to the incident is a practice that is not healthy or normal on a professional football team. The sanctity of the locker room for players does not exist on our B.C. Lions football team when a small group of players can report any comments made in there. The code that players do not inform on their teammates is also not existent.
This is less about Jerome Messam that a process that should not exist. Coaches coach and players play and personell decisions should be made by the coaching staff and GM. The practice also sets up potential conflicts of interest when a player who is competing for the same position has input on the future of that player.
I don't believe that anyone of us would want to work in a workplace where there is an established practice that if we ever said anything bad about the boss or broke a workplace rule and there was a committee of colleagues who could inform and report to the boss and request our dismissal.
Its unusual, its has all kinds of negative repurcussions associated with it. its not healthy and it was the powder that resulted in the incident last Friday night. Kavis Reed is a classy guy..oppostion coach or not. Messam took responsibility for his part in the incident. It was also the first time that Messam has ever been suspended from a football game in his entire time playing the game. Kavis Reed played the game and has coached for a long time. He knows Messam is no choir boy and has worked with him all season to attempt to mentor him, which Messam needs.
That Kavis Reed had empathy for Jerome Messam for the way that he was dispatched from B.C. and then being given a cheap shot during the game after he scored a touchdown and his understanding of Messam's reaction, while wrong, shows that he understands the deep hurt that would be there for Messam following his departure from B.C.
There are no heroes in this incident. It was unfortunate and unnecessary in many ways.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
I often wonder if anyone other than the players knows the real story here? We can all speculate, but unless I'm mistaken no one here was in the dressing room when he punched PJ? No one here was at the training camp after hours, so was it just bringing a girl in, who knows? All we do know is that his team mates didn't like him then and judging from the last game still don't.
I too have serious reservations about the Players' Council having input into player personnel decisions. Who's next on the agenda for the Players Council ? Whatever happened to the credo that what happens in the dressing room stays in the dressing room ?
TheLionKing wrote:I too have serious reservations about the Players' Council having input into player personnel decisions. Who's next on the agenda for the Players Council ? Whatever happened to the credo that what happens in the dressing room stays in the dressing room ?
Perhaps that is the whole issue, Messam wasn't holding his tongue....
ziggy wrote:I often wonder if anyone other than the players knows the real story here? We can all speculate, but unless I'm mistaken no one here was in the dressing room when he punched PJ? No one here was at the training camp after hours, so was it just bringing a girl in, who knows? All we do know is that his team mates didn't like him then and judging from the last game still don't.
Agreed and it is not really surprising that players on a team would have some limited input as to its members. But just because there is a "players council" doesn't give them any power to actually cut or trade a player away. That power still resides with Wally and he is under no obligation to go along if he disagrees. I don't really like the suggestion that some players may have had alternative motives in talking to Wally about Messam. Especially in the case of Jamal Robertson. That is bordering on the suggestion that one player deliberately put another player in a bad light because the competition was too close. I'm sure it has happened but it is a dicey thing to even infer that motivated self-interests were a partially the cause of why Messam was singled out for disapproval and eventual trade. The broken jaw gives me much more of a sense that Messam is a bit like a stick of dynamite waiting to go off. I don't care how pissed you are, breaking the jaw of your team mate is indicative of someone with a control problem and if his team mates were concerned about his conduct and its effect on the team, then they were well within their rights to talk to the coach about their concerns. What he does with that is up to him. You take a risk with something like this because their is no guarantee that you might not get moved out as a way of "solving a problem". I'll put my faith in the character of the veterans of this team that no such conversation would take place based on petty emotion or rivalries.
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
Players and coaches agreed that Messam had to go. I doubt that it was because he had a girl in his room. We'll likely never know all that went on. Those details have stayed in the room, as did the details of his punch-up with Paris Jackson last year. Jackson just had a tough time hiding his broken jaw.
The league has handed out fines to Messam and five Lions over incidents onm Friday, including the Messam scrum. That seems excessive, but it seems to be part of a trend toward tighter discipline for players, copaches and officials. That's not a bad thing.
Khalif Mitchell was one of five BC players to incur a fine Wednesday
To no surprise, the Lions did not go unpenalized as a result of their win over Edmonton Friday, but at least one of the fines as a result of a play involving former teammate Jerome Messam of the Eskimos left one player completely baffled.
Khalif Mitchell was fined an undisclosed amount, according to a league release Tuesday, for a hit on Messam in which he led with his helmet.
Mitchell was not amused when told of the penalty levied after practice Wednesday.
“How can I get fined if I didn’t have a penalty?” he wondered.
Korey Banks, Dante Marsh, Tad Kornegay or Solomon Elimimian weren’t penalized either, but all were also fined for their role in an incident in which Messam popped Kornegay after a two-point convert late in the game.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
TheLionKing wrote:Admirable that Kavis Reed came to the defence of his players but Messam's undisciplined move got him tossed from the game and a chance for an Edmonton comeback. There is a place and time to exact revenge.
That is exactly the position of football coaches on MOST winning teams.
Most pro coaches don't want is a player thinking revenge or when the ball is about to snapped this guy is placing for himself and not focused on the assignment.
That is why in football there is constant jawing to get receivers off their game. It is a game unlike most others where yapping is more acceptable when a DB is dissing a Rec. DBs give them a shot or two to make them think and hear footsteps. All ok within the rules - but not ok to get even. Coaches want their team to get even with the scoreboard showing their opponent DEFEATED.
Sure there have been exceptions with teams who win but mostly if you aren't disciplined - over the year in football you LOSE!!!
Reffing in football ALWAYS ABSOLUTELY 100% of time is harder on retaliation. It ain't fair. It is wrong often but once you understand that is way it is, the player accepts it and plays within the rules. It is something like you learn in minor football as you can't afford to hurt your team with a bad penalty. There were many refs in football who I couldn't stand but I knew there was not a snowball's chance in hot weather that you could get away with something on them as they 'd you for thinking about smacking someone.
A good analogy is your family and your kids. My wife who worked when our kids were teens had a rule. When she came home she wanted no coats in the kitchen, shoes all over the place, dishes in the sink. I'd come home a lot later. One day I come home earlier on a Friday and find her really angry to the point of being unreasonable. The two boys are indicating she is a loon and can't figure out what the bid deal was. Then I find out that the house was a disaster on Mon, Tue, Wed. Thurs. and she had said nothing and cleaned up herself. I got her on MY rule and that was that if there was ONE dish out of place or dirt on the floor or a coat on a chair the kid was coming to pick it up now - often they'd be napping or watching TV after school. That model made them think twice. The point was to be consistent - same with football coaching.
No situational - it all depends or you get a mess.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
