How many free agent camps did we have this year?

[Rammer]

Does the player pay their own way to these tryout camps or the club ?

I am pretty sure that neg list players that are invited would get that paid for, others are on their own dime, including the $100 cost factor.

[Toppy Vann]

I don't know why misterjones continues to slag Eric Tillman's record which as I read looks pretty good for a football CV.

I am sure that every team including the Riders has active scouting for players going on. Given Tillman's background, I am sure he has some excellent contacts in the US college ranks and around the NFL. He may not be in the office these days due to other issues but he is no doubt working the phones. The last few years have seen some pretty good Rider teams and funnily enough that was when Tillman took over.

I'll start by saying Tillman's grey cup win with the Riders was with Roy's players and I will admit a great head coach in Kent Austin. I will give Tillman the credit for choosing Kent Austin. As far as the active scouting you say the Riders have they only have one scout while we have four men all contributing to our scouting. Which approach do you think will win out in the long term? Only an ego driven fool would think he was good enough not to put these free agent camps on and someone else posted on here that the Riders are the only team in the CFL that don't do this. I think common sense is missing over there in Rider land and I'm glad for it and I think it will really start to show up this year with them in the basement and the Lions reloaded.

No one is suggesting that Roy Shivers is not good at talent identification. Shivers and his coach just didn't get it done for a significant number of years while Tillman and his coach won a GC the first year.

Shivers has a great record in player identification but he is not purrfect nor does he have a corner on the market in that category. Neither does former Lion personnel guy, Bob O'Billovich who has not yet turned it around in Hamilton. Obie too has a solid record on player selection. Was it not Obie who signed Casey to the (arguable) highest paid contract in the CFL and who turned out to be a bust there? It is so easy to attack but on balance I'd say Eric Tillman has done a good job in the CFL and all of us as fans are better for these guys as there have been some pretty dark days in the CFL where it got pretty lonely watching games in BC Place.

The reality is that no one team in the CFL is better than all of them. If one team is failing, the CFL is being dragged down. In fact, that is how the Lions current owner ended up owning the Lions as this franchise and the CFL were failing to generate fan, media and sponsorship interest. Do you ever want to go back to the days of owners who are screw balls and some bad decisions on who runs football operations? Not me. I'll settle for the Tillmans who can be annoying at times in the media but at least they are good, dedicated and experienced football guys who do what is best for their teams and make the CFL the quality it has become in recent years rather than those lonely times in BC Place when few fans would be there and the franchise had no sense of marketing or community.

There is more to scouting than having designated named scouts. These guys (some) have vast networks of associates and friends who are constantly on the prowl for players. I think given Tillman's CV that he is in the very connected category including the ability to call his old coach and friend Kent Austin if he wants a read on players he comes across. I am sure he can calll (or they call him) many good football people in the US and get some insights on talent. It takes that kind of connection I believe as no team in the CFL could afford NFL/NHL scouting organizations with people all over. I'd be very surprised if the Riders have pretty much shut down all player recruitment as you are suggesting. That would be odd and inconsistent with their GM's prior record.

There have been some years that these camps have failed to find the talent that the Lions in recent years have been finding as these can be hit and miss propositions unless it is by invitation like the Stamps did (do) and even then not everyone makes the team who comes to a CFL TC. In the end it comes down to opportunity and the coaches eye. Every coach has his own ideas of what makes a good player and certainly the Lions coach and his staff have made some pretty good reads on players. Not all fans agree with individual decisions on players but again beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say and a HC will make that ultimate judgment and let a player go before it is too late or the coach is gone as he was too loyal and kept players too long.

[Rids]

Many (most?) of the players that attend the Lions camps are also there by invitation. It's not just a bunch of unknown wannabe's, with nothing better to do that day, who turn up unannounced. So the host teams have seen the film of the players on their negotiation list. Then, at the tryout camps they get a chance to press the flesh, meet the player, and put them through their paces, prior to signing them for Training Camp. And when a phenom such as (Derek) Cam Wake, driving to the tryout, goes to the wrong city, but has shown amazingly well on film, he gets signed anyway.

I wouldn't say most are there by invitation. The Montreal Alouettes had over 200 at their final US camp and GM Jim Popp was busy making t-shirts in the trailer while the registration was ongoing so it was a much larger turnout than they expected. Most camps from what I have heard have averaged 100 to 110 players. Some of the early ones were lower turnouts and the weather affected one weekend pretty badly, but overall I would suspect that if you pegged about 100 players per camp you'd be fairly close. So using that logic I wouldn't expect that the Lions would have invited a very high percentage of the 800 players they likely saw in action.

The sheer amount of players out there available makes knowing the majority basically impossible even for individuals whose only job is to know football. Even trying to know the best players coming out of the 119 NCAA Div I schools is impossible before you even expand that to the other three divisions of NCAA play plus two division of NAIA play. Then add in the players that came out in the past two years that are still out there trying to find a home and you'll quickly become either discouraged by the sheer workload or completely energized that the rebuilding process for any team could be merely a solid off-season of hard work.

[korey&dante4ever]

I wouldn't say most are there by invitation. The Montreal Alouettes had over 200 at their final US camp and GM Jim Popp was busy making t-shirts in the trailer while the registration was ongoing so it was a much larger turnout than they expected. Most camps from what I have heard have averaged 100 to 110 players. Some of the early ones were lower turnouts and the weather affected one weekend pretty badly, but overall I would suspect that if you pegged about 100 players per camp you'd be fairly close. So using that logic I wouldn't expect that the Lions would have invited a very high percentage of the 800 players they likely saw in action.

The sheer amount of players out there available makes knowing the majority basically impossible even for individuals whose only job is to know football. Even trying to know the best players coming out of the 119 NCAA Div I schools is impossible before you even expand that to the other three divisions of NCAA play plus two division of NAIA play. Then add in the players that came out in the past two years that are still out there trying to find a home and you'll quickly become either discouraged by the sheer workload or completely energized that the rebuilding process for any team could be merely a solid off-season of hard work.

Well said/Great read.

[WestCoastJoe]

Well said/Great read.

Yes, good post, Rids.

The negotiation list is apparently only 35 players.

Obviously, the teams would like to see these guys in person, having seen the tape, prior to Training Camp.

And sometimes a player is brought in during the present season for a good look-see prior to attending Training Camp the following season. The Lions brought in Jarious Jackson for such a look back in 2004.

[Rids]

Obviously, the teams would like to see these guys in person, having seen the tape, prior to Training Camp.

Definitely I mean how many times have we watched a player that did very well while in college not be able to pick up a pro playbook or scheme fast enough.

And sometimes a player is brought in during the present season for a good look-see prior to attending Training Camp the following season. The Lions brought in Jarious Jackson for such a look back in 2004.

There are quite a few teams that take advantage of this and in the fall when the practice roster expands they bring up 3-5 bodies that are more than likely to return the following year. It's a good set up especially for the player that gets a real head start (when joining a stable team that is going to have the same coaching staff the following year).

[Lionut]

The Lions had two camps in Dallas, Washington and Atlanta, and one each in Portland and Las Vegas. Portland, as usual, produced the biggest crop of signings. Las Vegas was the only location that came up dry.

Isn't that Roy Shivers's backyard? Oh, the irony!

DH

Vegas seems like an odd place to hold a camp. Not a big population base, and not a college football hotbed. Maybe you get some of the bouncers at casinos and clubs on the strip coming to try out, but there is a reason why Vegas has never been a sports mecca.

[Rids]

Vegas seems like an odd place to hold a camp. Not a big population base, and not a college football hotbed. Maybe you get some of the bouncers at casinos and clubs on the strip coming to try out, but there is a reason why Vegas has never been a sports mecca.

One advantage is the ease of travel. Fairly easy for most of western US and Canada to get there.

UNLV has normally a fairly decent team although for years have been more of a recruiting hub for basketball than football.