Riders 35 - Lions 16, Post-Game Stats and Comments

[TheLionKing]

Why is it Riders fans on the CFL site are so arrogant and insulting when you offer a contrary opinion. They brag on there how great they are and say the only reason Lions lost was because the Riders play so great. None can admit or accept it was a combination of both Riders playing well and Lions playing lousy. Lions are 2 and 7 on the road and played again a bad game yesterday. But none of the Riders fans accept or like you saying that.

I was met by a hurl of insults. They are think they will finish 1st in the West and win the Grey Cup no doubt.

I almost hope they lose to bring them down from their high horse, though I hate Calgary more and not a fan of Winnipeg either.

Riders can only finish first if the Lions win against Calgary. Cheering for Calgary on Saturday to spite the Riders

[Gridiron Ernie]

Given that both our offence and the Riders' offence are RPO-styled it left me wondering -- looking for an explanation for their level of success with it compared to ours.

I ask this primarily in the context of this game last night (although wonder about the greater context of other games, given Sask has managed a better win/loss record than us -- not to mention that they have one of the two top winning records in the league this year, all the while employing MacAdoo's system on RPO offence.)

Though of course I'm not dismissing how a team's defence creates a significant difference re game outcomes, i.e. Jone's savvy defence as compared to Mark W's often simple-minded defence.. But my question focuses on this game last night, and isolating the RPO offence -- since it was BC RPO and Sask RPO both on display in the same game context.

Blitz, you helpfully (but for me, with my less-sophisticated understanding of the lingo, not quite helpfully enough) state "they are also an RPO pass possession offence (but block for the run differently than we do)." Later on, several paragraphs later you use the term "fold blocking" in reference to the Riders approach. I'm assuming this is part of what you're referring to by "blocking for the run differently". (?)

Can you explain or give an example of what that term exactly means and how it plays out? As there's obviously something significantly different in RPO outcomes depending on who implements it and how it's run, (again not dismissing the defence's significance to the final score of this game, or any other games for that matter).

[Gridiron Ernie]

Clever one-liner from LU (in today's 3DownN):
Upon Otha Foster referring to last night's game as a dress rehearsal LU comments "If that was a dress rehearsal, the Lions better find a new tailor." Now there's a loaded statement. And here's hoping Hervey's already got his own measuring tape out, sizing up the candidates.

[B.C.FAN]

Given that both our offence and the Riders' offence are RPO-styled it left me wondering -- looking for an explanation for their level of success with it compared to ours.

The Rider offence hasn't been successful. On the season, it's ranked eighth in yards and points, behind the Lions. All of the Riders' success this year is due to their defence. They scored 21 points off turnovers against the Lions, who also conceded a safety.

For all of the Riders' success running the football on Saturday and taking advantage of short fields with the wind, their offence scored 12 points on their own.

The Rider defence stacked the box to take away the Lions' running game on first down and dropped nine players into coverage in second down to take away the pass.

The Rider offence simply ran the ball until the Lions' stopped them, especially after Brandon Bridge entered the game. The Lions didn't do anything special to stop the run. When the Lions put extra players in the box, the Riders attacked the edge with short passes.

[Gridiron Ernie]

Given that both our offence and the Riders' offence are RPO-styled it left me wondering -- looking for an explanation for their level of success with it compared to ours.

The Rider offence hasn't been successful. On the season, it's ranked eighth in yards and points, behind the Lions. All of the Riders' success this year is due to their defence. They scored 21 points off turnovers against the Lions, who also conceded a safety.

For all of the Riders' success running the football on Saturday and taking advantage of short fields with the wind, their offence scored 12 points on their own.

The Rider defence stacked the box to take away the Lions' running game on first down and dropped nine players into coverage in second down to take away the pass.

The Rider offence simply ran the ball until the Lions' stopped them, especially after Brandon Bridge entered the game. The Lions didn't do anything special to stop the run. When the Lions put extra players in the box, the Riders attacked the edge with short passes.

Fair enough, B.C.FAN. I don't disagree with that assessment at all, and perhaps I didn't articulate the focus of my question clearly; while I very much am cognizant of the huge role the defence played (or didin't play in the case of our Leos) I really mostly just wanted feedback on folk's sense for the difference between Sask RPO and BC RPO when that factor is examined in isolation. You make some very good points to that end. Thanks. It is interesting though that Sask continues to employ that offensive system/scheme to the extent that they do. I'm in no way supporting or advocating for it, just asking curious about nuanced employment of it -- if in fact there is any. Your provided stats fairly convincingly suggest maybe it's by definition ineffective. Anyhow, just a question I had that wanted clarity.

[Blitz]

Given that both our offence and the Riders' offence are RPO-styled it left me wondering -- looking for an explanation for their level of success with it compared to ours.

I ask this primarily in the context of this game last night (although wonder about the greater context of other games, given Sask has managed a better win/loss record than us -- not to mention that they have one of the two top winning records in the league this year, all the while employing MacAdoo's system on RPO offence.)

Though of course I'm not dismissing how a team's defence creates a significant difference re game outcomes, i.e. Jone's savvy defence as compared to Mark W's often simple-minded defence.. But my question focuses on this game last night, and isolating the RPO offence -- since it was BC RPO and Sask RPO both on display in the same game context.

Blitz, you helpfully (but for me, with my less-sophisticated understanding of the lingo, not quite helpfully enough) state "they are also an RPO pass possession offence (but block for the run differently than we do)." Later on, several paragraphs later you use the term "fold blocking" in reference to the Riders approach. I'm assuming this is part of what you're referring to by "blocking for the run differently". (?)

Can you explain or give an example of what that term exactly means and how it plays out? As there's obviously something significantly different in RPO outcomes depending on who implements it and how it's run, (again not dismissing the defence's significance to the final score of this game, or any other games for that matter).

I'll try Grid Iron Ernie.

Lets just take a look at both offences from the opening whistle and look at both run games.

On the first play of the game, after the opening kickoff, we lined up in double tight ends, with Lumbala as our tight end right and Mackie as our tight end left.

Lulay hands the football to Sutton off the RPO. On that play, Foacault goes out to his right and blocked the Riders defensive end. Olifioye, our right tackle came down inside and he and our center double teamed the Riders defensive tackle.

Even though we had two tight ends in the game, no Leo offensive player blocked Cameron Judge, the Riders middle linebacker. Judge stepped up and met Sutton in the hole, stopping the play for a 3 yard gain. Judge was shaken up on the play.

That was seven blockers against 5 Rider defenders in the box and we don't block their middle linebacker.

When your offence is lined up in double tights and you don't even attempt to get a helmet on the opposing middle linebacker, it begs a serious question..which of course is why not?

Wally chose to punt on third and a half yard, deep in our own end.

The Riders, after a no yards penalty, being their first offensive series on our 42 yard line.

The Riders line up in a spread formation, with five offensive lineman and a slot left. The Riders also hand the football off inside on an RPO play on their first play of the game. But they block it differently. Their left slotback comes across to block Willes on a kickout block.

Herdman steps up into the hole to tackle Mason but Brendon Labatte gets a helmet on Herdman, who helps make the tackle 6 yds. downfield, along with Coleman.

The difference between those two plays is significant. On our Leos first run play we don't get a blocker into the second layer and its second and long and a forced pass play. On the Riders fist run play, they get their center into the second layer and now they have second and short, with the opportunity to run or pass and therefore placing our defense in more of a bind.

The Riders kick a field goal.

On our 3rd offensive series of the game, we line up double tights again. We hand off to Sutton inside again for second run of the game. Now its Eguavon playing middle linebacker for the Riders.

The Riders, smarter than we are, line up with 5 on the defensive line of scrimmage, seeing our offence in double tights.

No Leo player blocks Eguavon, who comes up to stuff the play and Edwards makes the tackle for no gain. (The Riders take an offside penalty)

(After 4 offensive series, our Leos run the football twice for 3 yds. and 0 yds. (penalty) and passed the football 7 times, while playing against the wind). The result - one first down off a hitch screen off a Riders penalty and on our 4th offensive series we try to go deep and on second down the football is tipped up into the air and intercepted.

I will get back to your key questions Grid Iron Ernie.

The first question is what is the difference between the Riders blocking and our blocking for the run is that the Riders, by scheme, get a helmet on our middle linebacker inside or a helmet on our outside linebacker, if running outside whereas too often, even with double tights, all we are blocking for the run is the 1st layer.

A fold block is likely old terminology now. But I will explain it. Our Leos are lined up with four defensive linemen but Herdman and Lokombo are in a two linebacker set up, with both lined up in the gap between our defensive tackle and defensive end, about 4 yards back.

The Riders offensive guard angle blocks down on our defensive tackle. The Riders center, Labatte slides behind the block and moves up into the hole as a lead blocker to take on Herdman. Its a tough play for Herdman, because the tailback can break off either side of the block.

Why are the Riders better at RPO? They run the football better, due to their run blocking scheme but they don't pass the football better. Collaros has an even lower quarterback efficiency than Lulay or Jennings.

We throw the football better deep off Spread formations and spread plays. The Riders throw the football better on short passing RPO plays. Why? Three reasons.

First, because they are more committed to the run and because they run the football better, it sets up their RPO pass plays better.

Secondly, they pass slightly differently off RPO.

Our quarterbacks are trained by Jarious to make the misdirection fake and then take a step or two away from the fake and throw. Collaros makes the misdirection fake and often takes a step back. It buys a split second more time to throw.

Thirdly, and importantly, the Riders have more slashing type of receivers, which is a better style for RPO plays, which focus on YAC.

Burnham, Posey, and Manny before he got injured are not those types of receivers. Only Ricky Collins is really that style of receiver.

The Riders, like us, run a lot of slants. But differently, they extend their slants quickly into underneath crossing plays and we don't.

But of all the minor differences between the two offences, they share one thing in common -they are both lousy offensive schemes.

Rider fans hate their offence at times more than we do. But then again, in Regina, their fans don't get as much Kool Aid or scapegoating of players.

Our Leos offence is 7th in CFL passing yards and the Riders offence is 8th (but they also run more and better). The Riders are 2nd in CFL rushing yards while our Leos are 6th (and only recently 6th- we have been 8th in CFL rushing for most of this season).

The Riders offensive line is not better than our offensive line. They just block schematically better for their running game.

The Riders ran the football for 199 yds even though we knew they would be running. Washington did not adjust. We rushed for 59 yds. Add in the three turnovers by the Riders (two for touchdowns) and that was the ball game.

Is that helpful Grid Iron Ernie or do you want more specific details regarding our run blocking? I don't want to bore you by being too technical.

[Huge Talent]

Kinda torn about the game next week

-do we cheer for a win, which hands the riders the division?

-do I bother to go to a meaningless game?

-if I do go, am I celebrating Wally's career, or the fact that he's leaving?

Maybe we'll move seats down to the 20 and just drink and ogle felions lol.

[Gridiron Ernie]

Thanks guys -- so much appreciated and enjoyed. B.C.FAN for the more general all-encompassing overview perspective on ineffectiveness of RPO in Sask's system, and Blitz for the down-to-the-gritty-minutia play by play details pertaining to Sask and BC comparison regards the RPO and nuanced blocking methods.

I feel like one of these days I might no longer be sitting in the back row with a dunce cap on in the Master Class offered free of charge by the MVPs of Lionbackers. While it's not my favourite subject I do get seriously curious and enjoy learning about Xs and Os and a blocking scheme's ramifications. Many thanks for fielding my questions. I'm confident I'll pass the exams, thanks to you guys. Thumbs up!

Now, back to full attention on the Packers and the Rams! Much RPO there? Kidding!!

[Blitz]

Thanks guys -- so much appreciated and enjoyed. B.C.FAN for the more general all-encompassing overview perspective on ineffectiveness of RPO in Sask's system, and Blitz for the down-to-the-gritty-minutia play by play details pertaining to Sask and BC comparison regards the RPO and nuanced blocking methods.

I feel like one of these days I might no longer be sitting in the back row with a dunce cap on in the Master Class offered free of charge by the MVPs of Lionbackers. While it's not my favourite subject I do get seriously curious and enjoy learning about Xs and Os and a blocking scheme's ramifications. Many thanks for fielding my questions. I'm confident I'll pass the exams, thanks to you guys. Thumbs up!

Now, back to full attention on the Packers and the Rams! Much RPO there? Kidding!!

You are not unwise at all Grid Iron Ernie. I find you very knowledgeable and insightful. We all have our own level of knowledge. What I respect is that you still want to keep on learning, as I do. There is so much to learn about the game of football at the pro level. Its such a complex and strategic sport and that is what I love about it.

There is a saying that you learn more from losing a game than winning one. Of course, that assumes the coaches and the players have an attitude that they want to learn so they can get better. But ego gets in the way of wisdom for some, which is why they don't learn from experience.

There is almost always a ray of sunshine within a storm. In this game that ray of sunshine was Jonathan Jennings wrapping his arm around Lulay's waist when he was pulled. Then it was Lulay either offering advice or encouragment back to Jennings.

Both are warriors who have too often been given a feather as a weapon to battle opponents armed with swords and clubs. They both deserve better.

[Gridiron Ernie]

Thanks guys -- so much appreciated and enjoyed. B.C.FAN for the more general all-encompassing overview perspective on ineffectiveness of RPO in Sask's system, and Blitz for the down-to-the-gritty-minutia play by play details pertaining to Sask and BC comparison regards the RPO and nuanced blocking methods.

I feel like one of these days I might no longer be sitting in the back row with a dunce cap on in the Master Class offered free of charge by the MVPs of Lionbackers. While it's not my favourite subject I do get seriously curious and enjoy learning about Xs and Os and a blocking scheme's ramifications. Many thanks for fielding my questions. I'm confident I'll pass the exams, thanks to you guys. Thumbs up!

Now, back to full attention on the Packers and the Rams! Much RPO there? Kidding!!

You are not unwise at all Grid Iron Ernie. I find you very knowledgeable and insightful. We all have our own level of knowledge. What I respect is that you still want to keep on learning, as I do. There is so much to learn about the game of football at the pro level. Its such a complex and strategic sport and that is what I love about it.

There is a saying that you learn more from losing a game than winning one. Of course, that assumes the coaches and the players have an attitude that they want to learn so they can get better. But ego gets in the way of wisdom for some, which is why they don't learn from experience.

There is almost always a ray of sunshine within a storm. In this game that ray of sunshine was Jonathan Jennings wrapping his arm around Lulay's waist when he was pulled. Then it was Lulay either offering advice or encouragment back to Jennings.

Both are warriors who have too often been given a feather as a weapon to battle opponents armed with swords and clubs. They both deserve better.

That "ray of sunshine" you reference concerning our QBs' character and mutual support -- it's a beautiful thing, and absolutely essential otherwise their job and the work they have to put into it and day to day and week to week attempt to apply as diligently as they possible can just wouldn't hardly be worth the candle (...or the f**king feather!)

[WestCoastJoe]

There is almost always a ray of sunshine within a storm. In this game that ray of sunshine was Jonathan Jennings wrapping his arm around Lulay's waist when he was pulled. Then it was Lulay either offering advice or encouragment back to Jennings.

Both are warriors who have too often been given a feather as a weapon to battle opponents armed with swords and clubs. They both deserve better.

Lulay and Jennings are very resilient, and very supportive of each other.

When fresh, coming in after some time away from starting, they tend to be sharp and confident. They do get worn down by the near hopeless situation they face. Lulay seems to get overly intense. Jennings seems to get overwhelmed. For a while they rise above it. Then the sacks, hits and hurries take their toll. RPO takes its toll. Game plans take their toll. Defences that know our O game plan as well as us take their toll. Communication issues take their toll. Pressure from above, placed on their shoulders, takes its toll. And they struggle. The magic cannot go on forever.

Just imo ...

[CardiacKid]

Clever one-liner from LU (in today's 3DownN):
Upon Otha Foster referring to last night's game as a dress rehearsal LU comments "If that was a dress rehearsal, the Lions better find a new tailor." Now there's a loaded statement. And here's hoping Hervey's already got his own measuring tape out, sizing up the candidates.

I read that too but my thoughts were more of a theatrical bent instead of sartorial...as in “if that was a dress rehearsal, you definitely ain’t ready for Broadway” or “if that was a dress rehearsal, you better take this back to workshop development”.

The game reminded me of a favourite line from IT Crowd, “did you see that ludicrous display last night?” Might have to put that on a t-shirt in time for the home game.

I hope Hervey has been using that measuring tape since the season started.

[CardiacKid]

Why is it Riders fans on the CFL site are so arrogant and insulting when you offer a contrary opinion. They brag on there how great they are and say the only reason Lions lost was because the Riders play so great. None can admit or accept it was a combination of both Riders playing well and Lions playing lousy. Lions are 2 and 7 on the road and played again a bad game yesterday. But none of the Riders fans accept or like you saying that.

I was met by a hurl of insults. They are think they will finish 1st in the West and win the Grey Cup no doubt.

I almost hope they lose to bring them down from their high horse, though I hate Calgary more and not a fan of Winnipeg either.

Unfortunately the comments section at CFL.com is nothing but a hive of trolls intent on one-upping the steady stream of barbs and insults. Truly a waste of time.

Farhan was subjected to some venom on Twitter for commenting on the rather curious delay in getting Collaros checked out as part of the concussion protocol. I think he was quite right in calling out the slow response, especially when you see how difficult it was for Collaros to gather himself.
And yet, a number of Rider faithful decided that it was more appropriate for them to attack Farhan with partisan vitriol instead of regarding his point as being made from the standpoint of player safety.
SMH....

[KnowItAll]

Kinda torn about the game next week

-do we cheer for a win, which hands the riders the division?

-do I bother to go to a meaningless game?

-if I do go, am I celebrating Wally's career, or the fact that he's leaving?

Maybe we'll move seats down to the 20 and just drink and ogle felions lol.

yes, cheer for a win always

Do what you would do if the game meant something

celebrate both

[Gridiron Ernie]

Clever one-liner from LU (in today's 3DownN):
Upon Otha Foster referring to last night's game as a dress rehearsal LU comments "If that was a dress rehearsal, the Lions better find a new tailor." Now there's a loaded statement. And here's hoping Hervey's already got his own measuring tape out, sizing up the candidates.

I read that too but my thoughts were more of a theatrical bent instead of sartorial...as in “if that was a dress rehearsal, you definitely ain’t ready for Broadway” or “if that was a dress rehearsal, you better take this back to workshop development”.

The game reminded me of a favourite line from IT Crowd, “did you see that ludicrous display last night?” Might have to put that on a t-shirt in time for the home game.

I hope Hervey has been using that measuring tape since the season started.

Heh heh. For sure Cardiac. "...Ludicrous display...". Hand that t-shirt down to Jarious! (seeing as you're on a roll, having last home game gifted your JJ24 figure to the Johnson kiddies.)

I don't like to be unkind, and a reasonable amount of time to learn should be given the guy -- I had high hopes -- but JJ7 baffles me in his approach to play calling. This game featured some head-shakers. And as a former QB one might think he'd have QB empathy, or mercy, or both.

I realize he's on a learning curve, but can he safely negotiate it, and will there be wreckage, or personal injury to passengers? Fingers crossed.