Lions 26 - Argos 23, Post-Game Stats and Comments

[The_Pauser]

We do live in interesting times, as you posted ThePauser.

I guess the games that Lulay lost only come down to a couple of 'mistakes' but the same does not apply to Jennings. I love your double standards The Pauser.

I think you obviously missed my points. My point was not who was the best quarterback to be starting for our Leos. My points were 1) that our quarterbacks are being judged by different standards for each (your post confirms that you are doing the same), that both quarterbacks have been inconsistent, and that the reason for that inconsistency has mostly been due to our scheme and play calling.

Except I'm not judging them by different standards at all. Jennings does not move the ball. Our offense often sputters with Jennings behind center. He's extremely inaccurate on intermediate and deep passes.

Here's more stats for you: https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net/w ... eek-16.pdf

According to the league's QUAR ranking, Jennings ranks out at 57 while Lulay has a rating of 63.1. Now granted that's not significantly better than Jennings, it is better. What is a valid point is to say that our quarterbacking has been among the worst in the league this season, but Lulay has been better than Jennings. Not only are his numbers better, but even by the eye test he looks a lot more calm and in command when he's on the field as opposed to Jennings who just doesn't look comfortable. Jennings did look a bit more comfortable yesterday, but generally when he's out there I see a QB who scrambles when he doesn't need to and is often indecisive. It's not a double standard, it's simply an observation based on what I'm seeing, and based on what the stats are telling me.

Stats can be used in different ways to prove a point. So here is another stat for you. We've not only won 6 of 8 games with Jennings mostly at the helm or mostly at the helm but in those 8 games, with Jennings at quarterback, our offence has averaged 24.24 points per game.

In Lulay's 6 starts, going all the way, we've averaged 23 points per contest. So extra passing yards by Lulay or not, are not as important as points scored by the offence. But then again, a quarterback can pass for a lot of yards in a game and lose.

For example, Lulay passed for 325 yds. in his second game this season as our starter but we only scored 17 points and lost the game. But then again, Jennings put up 29 points in regulation time against Hamilton but only 10 points in our loss to Hamilton. Always lots of factors in wins and losses and quarterback passing yardage also has to factor in when you put up the yards and when you didn't and what those yards meant.

In the biggest picture, offensive points on the board and wins count the most, more so than passing yardage.

So what are you trying to say here? That it's better to have a QB who doesn't throw for much yardage? Do you think those numbers are sustainable? Or perhaps you're falling victim to an anomaly due to a small sample size?

Overall, are QB's who throw consistently for less than 200 yards per game more successful than those who throw for 200+ on a regular basis?

But you seem to want to dismiss the problem of coaching and I wonder why you do? Overall, our offence was 7th in points scored, 8th in rushing, 8th in rushing touchdowns going into our last game.

Since its more difficult to blame the rushing numbers on quarterbacking what explanation do you have for us ranking 8th in rushing, 8th in rushing touchdowns and we also have the worst short yardage rushing success in the CFL. How are you going to blame that on Jennings? I know that you will find a way.

I don't dismiss the problem of coaching, but I recognize that our coaching staff has changed quite frequently in the past half decade. I also recognize a common theme on here where posters, specifically long-time posters, far too often blame the coaches for everything that goes wrong. It seems to be a crutch used to explain away everything that goes wrong with the team. Just as much as you think I'm laying all the blame on Jennings, I find that certain posters (not naming names) lay all the blame on Buono. Even with lack of evidence, Buono gets blamed for literally everything. Has he been purrfect? Nope. Do I think a new coach with a fresh vision will be beneficial? Absolutely. But do I think Wally is pulling the strings literally everywhere and is the voice behind every single bad decision and blown call and has this big master plan to spite everyone? Absolutely not.

Why do the Lions rank 8th in rushing? Well that's probably because they also rank 8th in rushing attempts. Their average gain per rush is also 8th, and I think a major reason for that is Jeremiah Johnson's 22% contact behind the line of scrimmage rate which ranks first by 5 percentage points. As solid as our O-line has been in terms of pass protection this year, run protection has been a problem. Is that Jennings fault? Nope, but just like you're wrong to suggest Jennings is a good starting QB you're wrong with your assumption that I would find a way to blame him for that.

The reality is that our offence is not scoring a lot of points with either Lulay or Jennings. The reality is that while there are differences in yardage, pass percentage, yds. per reception, points scored etc. there really isn't a significant difference between them in terms of the big picture of our success or lack thereof this season.

I disagree. I think there's also a difference with how the Lions play call with Lulay in there vs. with Jennings. I don't think there's much confidence in Jennings, hence why Lulay has attempted 50 passes 20 yards or deeper while Jennings is at only half that. Jennings is very interception prone so the playcalling is geared towards shorter passes which limit that risk. With Lulay they open up the playbook a bit more. Lulay also has a calming presence and doesn't get flustered in the pocket, while Jennings has shown a tendency to get flustered and end up scrambling, often times resulting in a sack or interception.

The reality is also that our run game, with a couple of exceptions such as last night, has not been very good.

The reality is that the problem for Lulay, for Jennings, for Burnham, for Posey, for Ricky Collins Jr. for Jeremiah Johnson and Chris Rainey is this: our offence is in the bottom rung of offences in the CFL, our passing attack has been better than our running game, our offence has been very inconsistent in terms of running, as well as passing from game, no matter which quarterback has been playing.

I agree with this.

Your comment "he (Jennings) still didn't come off as a confident QB who is going to lead the team to victory against any opponent". Huh? We've won the most games with him at quarterback and scored the most points with him at quarterback. We beat the Argos with Jennings. We didn't beat them when he was not quarterbacking our team. Whether he comes off as confident or not to you, we've won with him in there.

In fact, we've won 4 of of our last 5 games with him in there and therefore I could care less what he looks like, in terms of his 'confidence' to you. I don't care what he looks like to me either. Just win is all I care about in the biggest picture and when we've needed him to step up at the right time, he has, outside of one game.

I'm thinking you missed my point about Jennings facing weaker competition than Lulay. 2 of Jennings wins came against the worst team in the league. Another came against the second worst team in the league. He beat Hamilton in impressive fashion, after doing absolutely nothing for the first 3 quarters, but then lost to them in an equally awful fashion a week later. And he maintained a lead against Ottawa that the Lions already had at the time Lulay exited the game. Would Lulay's win-loss record look a lot better if he played in both Montreal games and another Toronto game where our defense spotted him with 4 interceptions?

Right now, for this season I prefer Travis Lulay as our starting quarterback, if and when he is healthy. But that does not come down to wins or losses for this season or points scored but rather his experience, as well as his experience in big games. I'm good with either. I like them both. I want both to succeed.

Do you want Jennings to succeed? I don't get that sense from you, but then again, that is as subjective as many of your comments.

And I prefer Travis Lulay because not only does he have the experience but he has also played better than Jennings.

Do I want Jennings to succeed? Absolutely. I'm not sure why you get the feeling that when he's in there I want him to play poorly. I'd love it if he came in and lit up the offense. But I'm living in a world of facts and the fact is he has not played well at QB this season.

I'm not so good with regards to our coaching staff.

This was never about which quarterback was better, which is your focus (or more accurately, your view that Jennings is bad) but the standards of judgment being used and the differing comments by our coaching staff about each.

Travis got screamed at in two games by Buono but Travis has not been the recipient of disparaging comments about his smarts or lack thereof, his inconsistency (yet he also has had significantly varying stats game by game), or his work ethic (yet both seem to practice, study etc. at the same times)

So, by your post, our lack of offensive success is not Lulay’s fault this season nor our coaching staffs fault and only Jennings fault. Nor do you even mention our running game, as part of the equation.

Please show me where I say Jennings is the only reason our offense has sputtered this season. I think you're misunderstanding what I've been saying. All I'm saying is that with Jennings at QB our offense has not been good. I'm not saying our offense has been great with Lulay in there, just that it's been better. I've also said Lulay has been a better QB than Jennings, and the facts support my claim. I also have little confidence in Jennings to lead this team, especially given he's very turnover prone, his inability to move the ball, and his lack of confidence in most games. His ability to handle adversity is questionable at best, which is to be expected with someone who isn't that experienced, but at this point in his 3rd full season I would expect better than what we've seen. He, along with the team, folded completely after that first play in the Hamilton game. At least with Lulay I feel as if there would be more of a calming presence. With Jennings in there it's almost as if when something goes wrong he gets terrified to make another mistake which leads to more mistakes.

By that reasoning, have you ever considered a p.r. job working for Ed or Wally, or even Jarious because they seem to be looking at the situation just as you do (and its very convenient for them to do so too – takes the spotlight away from them and places blame conveniently elsewhere).

I could say the same thing. Politicians often use people to run smear campaigns against their opponents.

As for ‘scapegoating’ the coaching staff, seems like the do a very good job of scapegoating our players repetitively, so perhaps it provides just a little bit of balance if they are on the receiving end of a little bit of criticism too -that is called ACCOUNTABILITY – their new favorite term, except when it applies to them. Its good for them to just get a little taste of their own medicine.

If players drop balls, miss assignments, make bad reads and throw interceptions is that on the coach? I suppose you'd have a point if they continued to play those same players while having viable alternatives who they're ignoring. I also never said coaching has been purrfect, and like I said earlier it seems like some people are quick to blame everything on the coaching staff. It's the players who play the game. The coaching staff do deserve some blame in certain instances, but I've seen people suggest that it's up to coaches to motivate players to get up for certain games. When we get to ridiculous standards like that I don't know what to say. If a pro athlete needs a coach to give a "rah rah" speech to get up to do their job they shouldn't be a pro athlete, and wouldn't be a pro athlete. But again, blame the coaches.

As for both Lulay and Jennings I wish both were playing for Dave Dickenson. They also both deserve to be playing for Dave Dickenson.
Right now, we’re finally at .500 but still in last place in the West, depending on what Edmonton does tomorrow.

But of course, that is all Jonathan Jennings fault.

Have I got that right? Good!!

Just like the blame the coaches hyperbole here you go continuing the "it's all Jennings fault" hyperbole. Be better than that. I know you are better than that.

An additional thought ThePauser.


While you can obviously post your thoughts and opinions at any time, you might want to consider your timing. Many fans are very upset with the treatiment Jennings got late this week. Travis Lulay, Matt Dunnigan, and Jennings agent were also upset with Hervey's comments. Jennings teammates were very supportive of him.

You can read a number of Leo fans comments on this thread. This is not the best time to thrash Jennings. He got enough of that this week from Ed Hervey and not only Hervey's comments, but also the timing of his comments, have both brought a lot of criticism.

Might be a good time for a little empathy!

So now you're suggesting I don't share my opinion because some people disagree with the GM? Is my opinion less valid because I happen to agree with the GM? Do the stats mean less because certain fans are upset with the GM's comments?

I even said myself that I question Hervey's end game with those comments. I think it's something that should have been done in private, because I don't see what positive outcome there is to be gained from a GM questioning his current starting QB's work ethic in the media. The only thing I could see that would make some sense is if there is infighting with the team and Hervey is trying to solve that issue by uniting the team together against him, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch.

The timing of my comments are fine. If people can't accept a differing opinion then perhaps a public message board isn't the best place for people to be. My comments are formulated based on what I'm seeing, and based on the stats. In other words, it's a fact based opinion. And do people know what kind of work ethic Jennings has? Do people here know how much film study he does? I can't say that I do. What I have seen is a guy who, at the practices I've seen, is often one of the last to leave the field. I recall one practice last year in particular where he stayed out playing catch with the other QB's long after practice ended. Does that mean he puts in a lot of hours studying film? No. But does it mean he doesn't either? No. But like has been mentioned before, that pick 6 he threw in that Hamilton game probably doesn't happen if he had studied that Hamilton defense.

I get people are upset at the GM's comments, but reality is reality. It happened. Reality can be harsh sometimes. What I'm more concerned with is how is this going to affect the team, and what is best for the team. And what I've felt since day 1 this year is that Travis Lulay as the starting QB is what's best for this team.

[The_Pauser]

You see a player in a losing game celebrating a personal achievement like he's won a championship when his team is getting their butts kicked happens and it makes you wonder.

This post really stood out to me because yesterday I saw number 3 for Toronto jumping around dancing with a lot of energy on the bench when Toronto was down 26-10. Maybe his energy helped energize the Argos (though I think Franklin being inserted into the game and the Lions D going soft, as well as the offense not being able to move the ball in the 2nd half had more to do with that), but it did seem out of place. Even when nothing was going right for the Argos, that guy kept dancing around and you wouldn't have known they were losing by looking at him.

On the flip side, you had Armanti Edwards who gave up on a play which led to an interception, and he just went to the bench, threw his helmet and sulked.

[Riderfan67]

Great win on Saturday to keep your playoff hopes alive , I hope you guys make it in instead of Edmonton. We need to beat the Esks today though , hope there is some of you cheering for a Rider win today haha

[WestCoastJoe]

Great win on Saturday to keep your playoff hopes alive , I hope you guys make it in instead of Edmonton. We need to beat the Esks today though , hope there is some of you cheering for a Rider win today haha

It was not a work of art on offence or defence, but we'll take the win over the Argos. Thank you.

You got it. Go, Riders.

[Blitz]

Well, ThePauser, first of all, I appreciate the time and effort you put into your most recent response to my comments.

I found it a very different style of post than you usually write and you took a lot of time in your last two posts to support what you have referred to as your 'subjective' views with stats and other information to support your views.

It explained your thinking about things and what I especially liked about your post was that you clarified and explained your views thoroughly.

For example, when you wrote that you didn't consider the coaching staff 'purrfect' I found that refreshing because it has seemed, from previous posts, that you have found them purrfect or at least without flaw. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

You didn't need to respond with the following:

According to the league's QUAR ranking, Jennings ranks out at 57 while Lulay has a rating of 63.1. Now granted that's not significantly better than Jennings, it is better. What is a valid point is to say that our quarterbacking has been among the worst in the league this season, but Lulay has been better than Jennings

It seems like you still are not getting the point I was continuously making. The point I was making was not whether Lulay or Jennings was the better quarterback this season statistically or otherwise, but that both quarterbacks are not that far apart and that we have won with Jennings, in fact 4 of our last 5 games with him at quarterback.

That you were willing to concede and also post that Lulay has not been 'significantly better' this season was not something I anticipated you would write, based on your previous posts.

This was not an argument with you as to whether Lulay or Jennings should be our starter with both healthy. I made it clear that it made the most sense to start Lulay this season, in that situation. But I also think we're fortunate, with Lulay injured, to have Jennings.

Jennings has 10 game winning drives in his career. He has a playoff win in 2016, in his first full season as our starter. The last time we won a playoff game with Lulay as our starting quarterback was in 2011. He won two of them that season, in his first full season as our starting quarterback.

There is a pattern when it comes to our starting quarterbacks and its not just Jennings who has that pattern or Lulay either. Do you wish to explain that?

What other team has a quarterback as good as Jennings to come in for their starting quarterback, when injured?

The MAJOR point I was making was that Jennings has been thrown under the bus by Jarious Jackson (twice) and now, most recently, by Ed Hervey and Travis Lulay has not been and that was unfair.

Based upon our quarterback play this season (with Lulay a bit better statistically, we've won more with Jennings) neither quarterback has shone or as you wrote 'our quarterbacking is amongst one of the worst in the league'.

So, either both Lulay and Jennings 'suck' (one a little bit less than the other) and both deserved public criticism or neither did. I don't believe in public condemnation of players by coaches either. I don't believe either quarterback has been the major problem for our offensive mediocrity for most of this season, so far.

This was not about who was the better quarterback, which you have come back to, time and again. The LAST thing it was about was who was the better quarterback but rather about 'fairness'.

The other point I was trying to make is that both Lulay and Jennings play has been inconsistent this season so far. I could make a point that Lulay has been even more inconsistent and prove it statistically. So, it was unfair for Jarious and Hervey to publicly condemn only Jennings for inconsistency.

Toppy believes "

Quite frankly, I suspect Hervey simply said what the coaches have told him"

and that certainly is a possibility to deflect from their own accountability. If Hervey is one of the 'last ones in' why would he think that Jennings was not 'committed' unless he was given the wrong information.

ThePauser, you also wrote

"And do people know what kind of work ethic Jennings has? Do people here know how much film study he does? I can't say that I do".

Niether can I. But a GM made a public statement that Jennings was not committed enough and mentioned film study as part of his contention. Yet, Jennings agent said Jennings is usually the first one in and Hervey usually the last one in, Dunnigan disagreed with the statement, and Travis Lulay said the statement was unfair and disagreed with Hervey.

Based upon that information, there is more than an appearance that Hervey got it wrong and there is nothing to support that Hervey got it right.

So, while there is not conclusive proof, right now I am more than leaning to the view that Hervey got it wrong. Hervey certainly has not backed up his comment and unless he can, he should publicly apologize to Jennings.

While it did not prove anything, your comment of seeing Jennings ethic at practices also does not tend to favor Hervey's comments either.

I believe that Jennings is being scapegoated and badly.

I've written numerous posts about Wally's long standing pattern of behavior of scapegoating players. Its also not supposed to be allowed. That behavior happened less in Wally's early seasons here because we won more games. But since 2007 forward, its been a prevalent pattern of behavior, as Wally experienced more losses and more losing seasons.

Ed Hervey and Wally Buono expected much more positive results this season than has happened so far. Hervey did an excellent job, both in the off-season and also during this season bringing in a lot more talent and depth. I think he is frustrated with the result of his work, based upon our record to date.

Buono came into this season with high expectations of success than what has happened as well. He even attempted to change for his final season, allowing a new style of offensive scheme for the very first time and also stating he was willing to take more risks.

With losing, we've seen the worst of Buono at various times, from yelling at Lulay to his usual response to losing, which is to blame and scapegoat players publicly.

There is one area of your most recent post that I found myself wondering about, at first. You wrote "Is my opinion less valid because I happen to agree with the GM?"

Later, you wrote that you didn't agree with the GM's going public with his comments. I'm guessing what you meant was that you agreed with the GM 's views but did not agree with Hervey going public. At the same time, your view is that 'reality can be harsh" as you said.

Yes, reality can be harsh. But I highly doubt that you would be happy about your employer going public that he thought your work was 'inconsistent' and that you lacked 'committment' towards your work colleagues and place of employement. I highly doubt that you would be saying 'reality can be harsh' for that hypothetical situation.

You also wrote

"The timing of my comments are fine. If people can't accept a differing opinion then perhaps a public message board isn't the best place for people to be'.

I never said I couldn't accept a differing opinion. I just questioned your timing, in terms of continuing to be very critical of Jennings at this point in time, after he has experienced such a tough week.

I'm just not one for kicking a guy when he is down or reading someone else doing the same. If you are fine with doing so, that's fine. I just shared with you my view that there are times when empathy is the better route, with a view that there are times to let 'something go'. You don't agree, which is definitely your right.

I'm pleased that you wrote that you want Jennings to succeed. It has seemed to me, that anytime Jennings has done anything good this season you have never mentioned it but come alive when he has not played well. I interpreted that as wanting Jennings to fail to support your contention that he is not a 'starting' quarterback.

So, now I know, that even though you do not see Jennings as 'starting quarterback' material, you would be happy if he proved you wrong. You wrote "I'd love it if he came in and lit up the offense" and that is admirable that you don't have any ego involved in the matter.

I wrote that its very convenient for them (Buono, Hervey, Jackson) to scapegoat as it takes the spotlight away from them and places blame conveniently elsewhere).

You wrote

"Just as much as you think I'm laying all the blame on Jennings, I find that certain posters (not naming names) lay all the blame on Buono".

You can use my name as one of the posters ( I think you meant me as one of them anyway) who lay a lot of blame on Buono. I don't lay all the blame on Buono, but I believe he is our biggest problem. I won't go into why because you have read a lot of my posts explaining why I believe that.

I think we differ on how important coaching is. In football, more than any other team sport, coaching MATTERS. Each play is stopped so that the coaches strategy can be implemented. Happens all game, each and every play.

Players do make plays and also make mistakes. Tailbacks fumble, receivers drop footballs, offensive linemen get beat, quarterbacks miss throws, defensive linemen get blocked, linebackers miss tackles, defenders get beat deep.

With that said, coaching is SIGNIFICANT. The best example that comes to mind is Bill Bilichick and the New England Patriots. Dispite drafting almost last each season and often losing excellent players to free agency, Bilichich gets it done season after season after season..

Football teams are not democracies. But most coaches run them as benevolent dictators and not as tin pot dictators of third world countries.

In Leo Land, under Buono, he almost has a monopoly. He controls the message a lot and he has the abiltity to do so. You will rarely find a word of criticism of him in the sports and print media. You will read a lot of very positive stuff. He also has a P.R. department. Reporters count on him for quotes and access.

Buono also has powerful allies on Lionbackers.

Those allies tend to follow a certain script in that they are also supporters and or defenders of Dorazio and Lulay is always their quarterback of choice. Mark Washington is often ignored unless the defense plays well and they suddenly go all gaga over him too. All go hand in hand for some reason.

Powerful people always want to control the message. Our coverage of Leos football, if you are not a Lionbacker, will be reading or listening to Buono blaming or scapegoating a player in the press, media or in an interview on the Lions website. There is little balance or acountability regarding Buono.

For those who are critical at times of Buono, on Lionbackers, whether misguided or astute, depening on your point of view, serve an important purpose. They provide an alternative view. That, at least provides a little bit of balance to an unbalanced equation. Its healthy.

While I am not a supporter of Buono as a good Head Coach, I do stick up and support some coaches. During Buonos' time here, I have been a supporter of Burratto, Kruck, Ritchie, Stubler, Malone, Holland, Reinbold, Tormey, and Randy Melvin. I was not supportive of Chapdelaine for a number of seasons but became very supportive of him. I was happy to see Jarious become our offensive coordinator this season, to begin with. I am not a Lionbacker who is always completely critical of all our coaches.

But on Lionbackers, placing our coaching staff under the spotlight too, at least attempts to make everyone accountable (not just the players) and it also is the only way right now to support players who are being publicly criticized, because the players can't stick up for themselves.

They do not have the power to do so. The power is completely in Buono's hands (or Hervey's, depending on how much power he really has)

There is an old saying:

"If you want to test a man's character, give him power"

Right now, I am looking at the character of those in power in Leo Land.


An aside ThePauser. We may disagree on some things but if you ever want to watch a Leos game together, just let me know. We could share the different things we are seeing. It might be fun.

[David]

Great win on Saturday to keep your playoff hopes alive , I hope you guys make it in instead of Edmonton. We need to beat the Esks today though , hope there is some of you cheering for a Rider win today haha

Thanks Riderfan67. I will be pulling for you guys today, that's for sure!

As an aside, is it just me, or did the Esks slide happen around the same time Maas decided to go mellow yellow??


DH

[The_Pauser]

Well, ThePauser, first of all, I appreciate the time and effort you put into your most recent response to my comments.

I found it a very different style of post than you usually write and you took a lot of time in your last two posts to support what you have referred to as your 'subjective' views with stats and other information to support your views.

It explained your thinking about things and what I especially liked about your post was that you clarified and explained your views thoroughly.

For example, when you wrote that you didn't consider the coaching staff 'purrfect' I found that refreshing because it has seemed, from previous posts, that you have found them purrfect or at least without flaw. Please correct me if I got that wrong.

Nope, you got it right here. I've never felt our coaching was purrfect or without flaw. I've just maintained that, specifically on this message board, there's a group of long-time posters who seem to put more blame on the coaching staff than they deserve. I've been here for a long time too, and though I don't post as often as some of you I do lurk and have this open up as a tab on my browser and check in daily. I see people sometimes even making things up and stretching things in order to blame Buono. Blame him for the things he does wrong, there's enough of that to go around, but let's not get to the point where we're making things up and making up assumptions to blame him. I prefer evidenced based discussions rather than just piling on.

You didn't need to respond with the following:

According to the league's QUAR ranking, Jennings ranks out at 57 while Lulay has a rating of 63.1. Now granted that's not significantly better than Jennings, it is better. What is a valid point is to say that our quarterbacking has been among the worst in the league this season, but Lulay has been better than Jennings

It seems like you still are not getting the point I was continuously making. The point I was making was not whether Lulay or Jennings was the better quarterback this season statistically or otherwise, but that both quarterbacks are not that far apart and that we have won with Jennings, in fact 4 of our last 5 games with him at quarterback.

That you were willing to concede and also post that Lulay has not been 'significantly better' this season was not something I anticipated you would write, based on your previous posts.

This was not an argument with you as to whether Lulay or Jennings should be our starter with both healthy. I made it clear that it made the most sense to start Lulay this season, in that situation. But I also think we're fortunate, with Lulay injured, to have Jennings.

I think I do need to state that because I think you are trying to pass off Jennings as someone who's been as good as Lulay. If I'm wrong on that then I'll concede, but I really don't think both have been equal. I also think, when arguing over a small sample size like what we are doing right now, we're not arguing about any meaningful data. And when you take last year into account when Lulay had the best QUAR in the league, while Jennings was second worst (only Collaros was behind him) I'd say the gap is far greater.

Jennings has 10 game winning drives in his career. He has a playoff win in 2016, in his first full season as our starter. The last time we won a playoff game with Lulay as our starting quarterback was in 2011. He won two of them that season, in his first full season as our starting quarterback.

There is a pattern when it comes to our starting quarterbacks and its not just Jennings who has that pattern or Lulay either. Do you wish to explain that?

What other starting QB's have the Lions had since 2011 that are still in the league? When talking about guys like Demarco or Kevin Glenn. Glenn has been a backup in the league since, and Demarco isn't even in the league.

What other team has a quarterback as good as Jennings to come in for their starting quarterback, when injured?

I would argue that Winnipeg has a better backup than the Lions do. At this point I would take Streveler over Jennings. I would also probably take Franklin over Jennings to, a couple poor starts this season notwithstanding. I'm not a big Kevin Glenn fan but I do think he's better than Jennings, though at his age it's questionable.

I've maintained that I think Jennings is a good backup. I just don't see him as having a starter's mentality, and his results from 2017-present seem to agree.

The MAJOR point I was making was that Jennings has been thrown under the bus by Jarious Jackson (twice) and now, most recently, by Ed Hervey and Travis Lulay has not been and that was unfair.

Based upon our quarterback play this season (with Lulay a bit better statistically, we've won more with Jennings) neither quarterback has shone or as you wrote 'our quarterbacking is amongst one of the worst in the league'.

So, either both Lulay and Jennings 'suck' (one a little bit less than the other) and both deserved public criticism or neither did. I don't believe in public condemnation of players by coaches either. I don't believe either quarterback has been the major problem for our offensive mediocrity for most of this season, so far.

This was not about who was the better quarterback, which you have come back to, time and again. The LAST thing it was about was who was the better quarterback but rather about 'fairness'.

Fair enough (no pun intended). I do think Lulay deserved some criticism for his error in the Ottawa road game which may have cost us that game, but overall I think he's played well. Jennings, on the other hand, has been shaky and has needed to be sheltered.

But I do agree with you that neither should be called out by their own GM, or even by their coaches, in the media. I just don't see what the end game is with that and what Ed or JJ7 is trying to accomplish.

The other point I was trying to make is that both Lulay and Jennings play has been inconsistent this season so far. I could make a point that Lulay has been even more inconsistent and prove it statistically. So, it was unfair for Jarious and Hervey to publicly condemn only Jennings for inconsistency.

Though even in Lulay's worst games he's still been better than Jenning's best games (outside of the one Hamilton home start). On the flip side, Jennings has been more consistent, outside of both Hamilton games which have been at both extremes good and bad, but his consistent level of play has been at a low level. And contrary to what you said earlier, moving the ball does count. More passing yards, provided it isn't coming at the expense of the running game, means the team is performing better at the field position game making it harder for the other team to score.

Toppy believes "

Quite frankly, I suspect Hervey simply said what the coaches have told him"

and that certainly is a possibility to deflect from their own accountability. If Hervey is one of the 'last ones in' why would he think that Jennings was not 'committed' unless he was given the wrong information.

ThePauser, you also wrote

"And do people know what kind of work ethic Jennings has? Do people here know how much film study he does? I can't say that I do".

Niether can I. But a GM made a public statement that Jennings was not committed enough and mentioned film study as part of his contention. Yet, Jennings agent said Jennings is usually the first one in and Hervey usually the last one in, Dunnigan disagreed with the statement, and Travis Lulay said the statement was unfair and disagreed with Hervey.

Based upon that information, there is more than an appearance that Hervey got it wrong and there is nothing to support that Hervey got it right.

So, while there is not conclusive proof, right now I am more than leaning to the view that Hervey got it wrong. Hervey certainly has not backed up his comment and unless he can, he should publicly apologize to Jennings.

While it did not prove anything, your comment of seeing Jennings ethic at practices also does not tend to favor Hervey's comments either.

I believe that Jennings is being scapegoated and badly.

Lulay is going to stick up for his teammate because that's the kind of guy he is. Teammates will always stick up for each other so I don't put much stock in that. Matt Dunigan doesn't know what goes on at Lion's practice. I don't recall ever seeing him out at the practice facility. And Jennings agent isn't going to side with Hervey either. I think the sources you're using here are not without their own bias, so for me that proves nothing. If Buono came out and said something to the contrary, that would speak volumes. Or if JJ7 spoke out. Or anyone from the coaching staff really. Though I don't want that to happen because I don't think these things should be aired out in the media, nor do I think that would happen for the same reason that I don't think one of JJ10's teammates would agree with Hervey and throw Jennings under the bus.

At the end of the day, Jennings has not performed well enough. Another publicly scapegoated player Chris Rainey has not performed well enough. Jeremiah Johnson, on the other hand, is the one who I think is getting the most unfair criticism as I do think he has performed well. Especially when looking at the stats and seeing that he is hit behind the line of scrimmage on almost a quarter of all his touches (which led the league) that tells me that there's a problem with the run blocking and perhaps with the scheme. I don't see how that's something a RB can control unless he's literally just standing there and waiting to get hit.

I've written numerous posts about Wally's long standing pattern of behavior of scapegoating players. Its also not supposed to be allowed. That behavior happened less in Wally's early seasons here because we won more games. But since 2007 forward, its been a prevalent pattern of behavior, as Wally experienced more losses and more losing seasons.

And I think there's valid criticism that should go to Wally the GM, and to our scouting staff which took a huge hit when we lost Bob O'Billovich, and Roy Shivers. OB has returned in a much lesser role, but we aren't recruiting the kind of talent that we used to in the early/mid-2000's.

Ed Hervey and Wally Buono expected much more positive results this season than has happened so far. Hervey did an excellent job, both in the off-season and also during this season bringing in a lot more talent and depth. I think he is frustrated with the result of his work, based upon our record to date.

Buono came into this season with high expectations of success than what has happened as well. He even attempted to change for his final season, allowing a new style of offensive scheme for the very first time and also stating he was willing to take more risks.

With losing, we've seen the worst of Buono at various times, from yelling at Lulay to his usual response to losing, which is to blame and scapegoat players publicly.

Yet I still question some of Hervey's resource allocation. As we've even discussed earlier, I don't understand the need for throwing more cap money at the LB position when we signed Micah Awe when there has been a greater need to shore up the receiving group, or even the DB's. I have been thrilled with how Hervey rebuilt our defensive line, and offensive line, but like every GM he's not without his questionable moves.

I don't know that Buono has necessarily taken more risks like he's said he would; however, I do think that he's also not wrong in laying blame on some of the players. When receivers drop balls, players take stupid penalties, QB's miss reads and throw bad interceptions, how is that on the coach?

There is one area of your most recent post that I found myself wondering about, at first. You wrote "Is my opinion less valid because I happen to agree with the GM?"

Later, you wrote that you didn't agree with the GM's going public with his comments. I'm guessing what you meant was that you agreed with the GM 's views but did not agree with Hervey going public. At the same time, your view is that 'reality can be harsh" as you said.

Yes, reality can be harsh. But I highly doubt that you would be happy about your employer going public that he thought your work was 'inconsistent' and that you lacked 'committment' towards your work colleagues and place of employement. I highly doubt that you would be saying 'reality can be harsh' for that hypothetical situation.

You pretty much get it here. I agree with Hervey's views, but I don't agree with him going public. Reality can be harsh, and by that I mean people need to accept that Jennings may not be as good as they think he is or wish he would be.

I do feel Jennings has every reason to be pissed off about being called out by his GM publicly. And you're right, I wouldn't be happy either. But I think that's missing the point. The point is Jennings has not played well for two seasons now and that's a problem.

The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that Hervey tried to do this as motivation. Similar to when he went to the sidelines and told Odell Willis that he didn't trade for him for him to play like he was, which seemed to light a fire under Willis. I think it's a bit misguided though if this is the case because that type of motivation tactic doesn't work on everyone, and I don't think Jennings has the personality where that would work. Nor do I think your QB, who's already lost his job twice, is necessarily the guy you want to be ripping into publicly.

You also wrote

"The timing of my comments are fine. If people can't accept a differing opinion then perhaps a public message board isn't the best place for people to be'.

I never said I couldn't accept a differing opinion. I just questioned your timing, in terms of continuing to be very critical of Jennings at this point in time, after he has experienced such a tough week.

I'm just not one for kicking a guy when he is down or reading someone else doing the same. If you are fine with doing so, that's fine. I just shared with you my view that there are times when empathy is the better route, with a view that there are times to let 'something go'. You don't agree, which is definitely your right.

The timing of my comments have more to do with the fact that I was away on vacation for two weeks prior and have recently got back and kicked the jet lag. Prior to me leaving for my vacation Lulay was our starting QB and Jennings had only come in in relief in the Ottawa game. I was literally flying out the day of the Montreal game (though I did see the game).

Let me ask you this, since you like to point to their win-loss record a lot: Do you think Jennings was the reason we beat Montreal on the road?

Do you think Jennings was the reason we beat Toronto at home?

I personally think any QB who didn't turn the ball over too much would have won those games, the way our defense played. And while Jennings wasn't without his turnovers in that Montreal game, he at least managed to not screw either game up with egregious late turnovers. Though our inability to generate offense in the second half of the Toronto game, despite a running game that greatly improved, almost let Toronto get back in it.

I'm pleased that you wrote that you want Jennings to succeed. It has seemed to me, that anytime Jennings has done anything good this season you have never mentioned it but come alive when he has not played well. I interpreted that as wanting Jennings to fail to support your contention that he is not a 'starting' quarterback.

So, now I know, that even though you do not see Jennings as 'starting quarterback' material, you would be happy if he proved you wrong. You wrote "I'd love it if he came in and lit up the offense" and that is admirable that you don't have any ego involved in the matter.

I want the Lions to win the Grey Cup. I couldn't care less if Jennings is the QB who does it, or if it's Fajardo, Lulay, Lloyd, or even Christie Buono at QB. If we win a Grey Cup that's the main goal. If there are fans who only want to see the Lions succeed with one QB in and not with the other I would question how much of a fan of the team they are. And that's perfectly fine if someone wants to be a fan of a certain player and not a team. I'm the opposite. I've made friends with players on the team (though most are no longer with the team, I do maintain contact with some current players). I want to see them all do well. My comments are just based on what I've seen and based on the stats. But if Jennings ends up playing the final 4 games like he did in 2016 or like the did during the Hamilton home game I'd be the first person jumping up saying we need to re-sign this guy.

I wrote that its very convenient for them (Buono, Hervey, Jackson) to scapegoat as it takes the spotlight away from them and places blame conveniently elsewhere).

You wrote

"Just as much as you think I'm laying all the blame on Jennings, I find that certain posters (not naming names) lay all the blame on Buono".

You can use my name as one of the posters ( I think you meant me as one of them anyway) who lay a lot of blame on Buono. I don't lay all the blame on Buono, but I believe he is our biggest problem. I won't go into why because you have read a lot of my posts explaining why I believe that.

What's funny is I do agree with a lot of what you write about the coaching staff, especially when you explain it from a scheming perspective. It's more when people start bringing up this shadowy Buono figure who lurks in the alleys and pulls these strings like some evil puppeteer. Everything from still being the coach despite Benevides being the coach, to not letting his coordinators coach the schemes they want to coach. It's when people start reaching and making things up to put a blame on Buono that I have a problem with. If you think the coordinators would play a different style then come up with some proof. Otherwise it's perfectly valid to criticize the team for the schemes they do play, but blame both the coordinator and the coach.

I think we differ on how important coaching is. In football, more than any other team sport, coaching MATTERS. Each play is stopped so that the coaches strategy can be implemented. Happens all game, each and every play.

Players do make plays and also make mistakes. Tailbacks fumble, receivers drop footballs, offensive linemen get beat, quarterbacks miss throws, defensive linemen get blocked, linebackers miss tackles, defenders get beat deep.

With that said, coaching is SIGNIFICANT. The best example that comes to mind is Bill Bilichick and the New England Patriots. Dispite drafting almost last each season and often losing excellent players to free agency, Bilichich gets it done season after season after season..

Football teams are not democracies. But most coaches run them as benevolent dictators and not as tin pot dictators of third world countries.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. My point was I don't think coaches need to be all "rah rah you have to get up to play today." It comes more on the preparation side. Criticizing Wally for not wearing a headset and thus being a lot slower on questionable plays that maybe should be challenged, and missing opportunities is quite valid. Blaming the coaches when a player fumbles the ball or when a QB throws an interception is not.

The QB position is also significant. That same Bill Belichick was 41-55 as the coach of the Browns and into his first year with the Patriots. Since Tom Brady he's 212-65. Who made who? I would argue Brady had a huge hand in Belichick's success, though I don't think anyone can say conclusively that Brady would have been as great as he is without some of the things Belichick has done. The answer is probably somewhere in between, but the splits of pre-Brady and with Brady are significant.

In Leo Land, under Buono, he almost has a monopoly. He controls the message a lot and he has the abiltity to do so. You will rarely find a word of criticism of him in the sports and print media. You will read a lot of very positive stuff. He also has a P.R. department. Reporters count on him for quotes and access.

Buono also has powerful allies on Lionbackers.

Those allies tend to follow a certain script in that they are also supporters and or defenders of Dorazio and Lulay is always their quarterback of choice. Mark Washington is often ignored unless the defense plays well and they suddenly go all gaga over him too. All go hand in hand for some reason.

I think part of the problem here is the lack of overall media coverage. Though if you think there's barely any criticism directed towards Buono then I strongly urge you to listen to Sekeres and Price. Matt Sekeres has never been shy to throw criticism his way, and that has led to numerous on-air arguments between the two.

I have been anti-Dorazio for years. A lot of that coming from what I've read on here and agreeing with the points that have been made. As well, just seeing the results for myself and comparing them to when we have been without Dorazio (like that one year we had Dan Malone and our offensive line actually looked competent). Part of it is personnel, but when our personnel look bad here but go on to play well elsewhere there's a problem. Justin Sorenson is a prime example of this.

Powerful people always want to control the message. Our coverage of Leos football, if you are not a Lionbacker, will be reading or listening to Buono blaming or scapegoating a player in the press, media or in an interview on the Lions website. There is little balance or acountability regarding Buono.

For those who are critical at times of Buono, on Lionbackers, whether misguided or astute, depening on your point of view, serve an important purpose. They provide an alternative view. That, at least provides a little bit of balance to an unbalanced equation. Its healthy.

While I am not a supporter of Buono as a good Head Coach, I do stick up and support some coaches. During Buonos' time here, I have been a supporter of Burratto, Kruck, Ritchie, Stubler, Malone, Holland, Reinbold, Tormey, and Randy Melvin. I was not supportive of Chapdelaine for a number of seasons but became very supportive of him. I was happy to see Jarious become our offensive coordinator this season, to begin with. I am not a Lionbacker who is always completely critical of all our coaches.

But on Lionbackers, placing our coaching staff under the spotlight too, at least attempts to make everyone accountable (not just the players) and it also is the only way right now to support players who are being publicly criticized, because the players can't stick up for themselves.

They do not have the power to do so. The power is completely in Buono's hands (or Hervey's, depending on how much power he really has)

There is an old saying:

"If you want to test a man's character, give him power"

Right now, I am looking at the character of those in power in Leo Land.

I see your point here, but I think it goes too far in this direction. As overly positive you think the media is about Buono, I think the narrative on here is overly negative. I guess I'm just a bit more of a moderate but I think the reality lies somewhere in the middle.

An aside ThePauser. We may disagree on some things but if you ever want to watch a Leos game together, just let me know. We could share the different things we are seeing. It might be fun.

Absolutely! Good discussion. What's strange is we've agreed on QB's before (you and I were both huge supporters of Casey Printers). It's just nice that we can share our opinions on a public forum, in a mature manner where people don't resort to name calling because the other side doesn't see things their way (which I see a lot of on twitter and facebook message boards). Cheers!

[Blitz]

Interesting that Calgary has not scored a point against Stubler's defense after 3 quarters of play. Stubler doesn't have the talent we have but he is doing a great job. For example,, Knapton is a starting rush end for Montreal.

But we should be grateful for Mark Washington.

Maybe Jennings played better against Montreal than some Lionbackers thought. Bo Levi is struggling against Stubler's defense.

But the important game is the next one. Edmonton is now the team we need too get above in the standings as posted above.

The good news is the Esks have the Wally Buono mentored Mike Benevedes and his Wally inspired passive zone defense.

That gives our Leos hope.

[Toppy Vann]

Blitz:

Toppy believes "

Quite frankly, I suspect Hervey simply said what the coaches have told him"

and that certainly is a possibility to deflect from their own accountability. If Hervey is one of the 'last ones in' why would he think that Jennings was not 'committed' unless he was given the wrong information.

Spot on Blitz!

The GM didn't make that up and Hervey did the same when he did the Simeon Rottier rant.

When you go back to the Rottier total put down Ed Hervey then was asked about undermining the coaches on other comments. Hervey stated the coaches agreed.

My take here is the criticism of Jennings is what the HC and others have imparted to the GM but I believe that they had not wanted OR expected the GM to make those comments public.

There is a fine line between the GM undermining coaching versus using the power of the GM's role to send a message that no matter what your coaches think, 'I can ship you outta here'.

In the end these comments by Ed Hervey might actually be helpful as well as bringing in Tyrell Sutton (possibly in Wally's world - more of a threat to #24).

I thought that Jennings saying he worked on confidence off season was not the part of his game he needed to work on.

[Pistrinus]

i am quite impressed with the essays you guys write here. is this a british columbia thing ?

[The_Pauser]

i am quite impressed with the essays you guys write here. is this a british columbia thing ?

Must be

Neither one of us bothered to cite our sources in MLA or APA format though.

[Sir Purrcival]

i am quite impressed with the essays you guys write here. is this a british columbia thing ?

Lol. Good thing I didn't have a drink at the time I read this or my keyboard would have needed replacing.

To Pauser: I'm not quite sure if you are including me in the list of long time posters who have laid the blame at the feet Buono. It could well be as I am one of those that been a very glass half empty guy when it comes to the Buono regime. You did say one thing (I think it was chapter two, paragraph 3) about coaches not being responsible for players missing assignments and so on. I'm not sure I totally agree.

Sure, sometimes a player will make a mistake and that isn't the coaching per se. However, there is a systemic class of errors that seem to revolve around this team and have so for years. Those I do put on the shoulders of Buono. For example, prior to Ed Hervey, how many times were we bemoaning our lack of a pass rush? The lack of a run game; the lack of a good safety; the lack of a solid offensive line? Those are personnel issues and who is responsible for those on a professional team? The coach and gm, that is who and since Wally has been in both positions and has been responsible for hires in the HC position, it does lie at his feet.

Is he totally responsible? No but given that he has been at the top of the food chain of this franchise for many years, I would tend to lay it at his feet. The owner has been largely absent and you can make a case for complicity with the status quo from him but largely, the biggest issue with players and mistakes comes back to the man who chose them, coached them, failed to properly utilize their talents and even more glaringly, hired the cadre of coaches responsible for specific areas of the game.

We have heard time and time about Dorazio having schemes that were perhaps too complicated and leading to errors. Washington being too passive of defense, special teams coaching being inadequate, etc. etc. How much of that is true, I can't really say but the repeat themes involving mistakes on the field regardless of who the personnel are suggests a bigger, more macro problem.

I agree totally that Buono isn't the root of all evil but in all sincerity, he is the largest problem on this team at this point. The game appears to have past him by and while other teams have managed to fall and rise again or simply maintain a high level of play, this team has seemed mired in mediocrity or worse for several years.

[DanoT]

Toppy, you are correct that Ed's publicly calling guys out is part of his way of doing things and as such should have been expected. Nevertheless, this public calling guys out is still not a smart way of doing things.

I think it was Sir Purcival that called it "Ed's first misstep" as Lions GM. He was correct.

Ed needs to up his game and start expressing dissatisfaction privately with players.

[Hambone]

i am quite impressed with the essays you guys write here. is this a british columbia thing ?

Essays? More like tomes at times. "War and Peace" came to mind in the recent string of posts between Blitz and Pauser because it seemed to start out in war, has progressed towards peace and is just about as long to read.

[TheLionKing]

Heard on Global tonight that Jarius Jackson's car was broken in on Saturday night after the game and his computer, passport, playbook, work visa and other valuables were stolen. Jackson should know better than to keep valuables in the car. I guess the thief is not a fan of the RPO