How to rebuild

[maxlion]

Our win/loss record has been in constant decline since 2012. It is hard for many fans to see this current edition of the team as being anything other than a disaster. It is certainly not a smooth, professionally run rebuild. It is hard to justify, or explain away, or do a P.R. spin for a record of 5 and 10. Yes, we were in many or most or even almost all of those games, but we lost, in ways that were astonishing, and yet seemed inevitable.

If you look around the league at teams that have undergone a rebuilding process over the past decade, 5-10 isn't that bad. For example, the Eskimos were 4-14 in 2013, Redblacks were 2-16 last year, Riders are 2-13 this year, Blue Bombers have had seasons with 3/4/7/7 wins over the past 5 years, Tigercats went 4 years without surpassing 5 wins, etc..

If this is the low point in our rebuilding, and we can come back strong next year with a young, exciting team, this will truly be a textbook case of rebuilding, and Wally will deserve a lot of credit for that. Of course, it hasn't happened yet, but there are positive signs.

[DanoT]

Our win/loss record has been in constant decline since 2012. It is hard for many fans to see this current edition of the team as being anything other than a disaster. It is certainly not a smooth, professionally run rebuild. It is hard to justify, or explain away, or do a P.R. spin for a record of 5 and 10. Yes, we were in many or most or even almost all of those games, but we lost, in ways that were astonishing, and yet seemed inevitable.

If you look around the league at teams that have undergone a rebuilding process over the past decade, 5-10 isn't that bad. For example, the Eskimos were 4-14 in 2013, Redblacks were 2-16 last year, Riders are 2-13 this year, Blue Bombers have had seasons with 3/4/7/7 wins over the past 5 years, Tigercats went 4 years without surpassing 5 wins, etc..

If this is the low point in our rebuilding, and we can come back strong next year with a young, exciting team, this will truly be a textbook case of rebuilding, and Wally will deserve a lot of credit for that. Of course, it hasn't happened yet, but there are positive signs.

IMO, there is little doubt that Wally has done a very good job of rebuilding this team with young capable players. The coaching staff that he has allowed Tedford to assemble is another matter. Tedford could recruit some high school coaches that would have this team better prepared for opponents than what the assistant coaches currently end up doing, including game time play calling which is horrible.

[WestCoastJoe]

Our win/loss record has been in constant decline since 2012. It is hard for many fans to see this current edition of the team as being anything other than a disaster. It is certainly not a smooth, professionally run rebuild. It is hard to justify, or explain away, or do a P.R. spin for a record of 5 and 10. Yes, we were in many or most or even almost all of those games, but we lost, in ways that were astonishing, and yet seemed inevitable.

If you look around the league at teams that have undergone a rebuilding process over the past decade, 5-10 isn't that bad. For example, the Eskimos were 4-14 in 2013, Redblacks were 2-16 last year, Riders are 2-13 this year, Blue Bombers have had seasons with 3/4/7/7 wins over the past 5 years, Tigercats went 4 years without surpassing 5 wins, etc..

If this is the low point in our rebuilding, and we can come back strong next year with a young, exciting team, this will truly be a textbook case of rebuilding, and Wally will deserve a lot of credit for that. Of course, it hasn't happened yet, but there are positive signs.

"5 and 10. Not that Bad."

Sounds like a slogan.

Rebuilding, or falling apart, falling behind the times?

And, yes, compare our team to teams suffering in the win loss column. You see, we have it pretty good. Wally is doing a great job. That is a tough sell at 5 and 10, with wins decreasing since 2012.

Better to rebuild on the fly, like Jones in Edmonton right out of the gate in his first year, and Austin in Hamilton. Or to maintain excellence with a changing cast over the years, as with Hufnagel in Calgary. Not fair to compare our present team to teams of excellence? The best teams, with the best leadership, get the best support. Best as defined by wins and losses and exciting, effective football.

Low point? Some thought 9 and 9 was the low point last year. Nope. The decline accelerated.

Textbook case of rebuilding? Some fans see organizational dysfunction. Reluctance to see the reality. Comfort only with the old, familiar systems and people. Poor coaching. Poor drafting. On and on.

Some fans are loyal and reluctant to criticize. Others speak out. No one changes their mind.

If we were 1 and 15, Wally, or anyone speaking in his defence, or on his behalf, would find positives.

Wins and losses decide everything in the end. Our record and play this year would bring a house cleaning in many franchises.

[maxlion]

Better to rebuild on the fly, like Jones in Edmonton right out of the gate in his first year, and Austin in Hamilton. Or to maintain excellence with a changing cast over the years, as with Hufnagel in Calgary. Not fair to compare our present team to teams of excellence? The best teams, with the best leadership, get the best support. Best as defined by wins and losses and exciting, effective football.

The context of our record is that we had a decade of success and now need to rebuild. None of the coaches or GMs you mentioned have achieved that success.

[WestCoastJoe]

Better to rebuild on the fly, like Jones in Edmonton right out of the gate in his first year, and Austin in Hamilton. Or to maintain excellence with a changing cast over the years, as with Hufnagel in Calgary. Not fair to compare our present team to teams of excellence? The best teams, with the best leadership, get the best support. Best as defined by wins and losses and exciting, effective football.

The context of our record is that we had a decade of success and now need to rebuild. None of the coaches or GMs you mentioned have achieved that success.

Context. None of the men I mentioned has presided over the decline of an organization on and off the field. We are at 5 and 10, with a dwindling fan base, offering very unsatisfying football on the field. This discussion about "rebuilding" is about Wally, which IMO is where it should be, as he is the one running the organization, now in his 13th year.

[maxlion]

After 13 years in charge, I'm sure we can all point to things that Wally has done that didn't work out or that we didn't agree with. I'm predicting that we will be quite a bit better with or without Wally next year, and it will be primarily due to his foresight and making necessary changes.

[WestCoastJoe]

After 13 years in charge, I'm sure we can all point to things that Wally has done that didn't work out or that we didn't agree with. I'm predicting that we will be quite a bit better with or without Wally next year, and it will be primarily due to his foresight and making necessary changes.

I will grant you that Wally is a survivor.

Even when he takes a mistaken path, he eventually gives it up, and works hard to find the correct path.

Some old habits die hard, however. Too much loyalty to underachieving staff/friends. Comfort zone only with ultra conservative, predictable O, D and STs. Quick, cold dismissal of long serving vets. Et cetera.

With his second hiring of a Head Coach, as with the first, one now has some doubts about his judgment in this area of a GM's work.

Any leader, the longer he is in power, shows much for critics to note and criticize.

I am not making any predictions, except that wins and losses ultimately guide the key decisions in pro sports.

[cromartie]

Promoting Mike Benevides to HC. Mistake. Maybe we do not even know if Benny could have been a good HC. Maybe he never got control of the team.

I don't agree with this.

Very few guys walk into the HC position better groomed than MB was. He was a Special Teams Coordinator, Defensive Coordinator, ran the Canadian Draft and was a position coach for almost a decade before being given the reigns from a legend in this league.

The fact that, even with that background, he more or less crapped the bed is on him.

I'm predicting that we will be quite a bit better with or without Wally next year, and it will be primarily due to his foresight and making necessary changes.

Other posters will let this moving of the goal post from your original premise slide. I'm not one of them. The whole reason you started this thread was to talk about how good this staff is and how they've done a terrific job of developing a quarterback, and how they're all part of the plan, and that plan is working. The above statement is a clear backslide on this.

2/3rds of the plan isn't working, and the first third only works sporadically. McMann and Washington have to go, and Cortez is on his third shot in a row at not accomplishing much.

We may be doing well player personnel wise, though some guys who shouldn't be here are still hanging on courtesy of their passport and, apparently, their ability to do the GM's financial planning, but overall you can hardly call this organization healthy and it's current overall state part of a good plan.

[maxlion]

Sorry Cromartie, no backsliding from me in this thread. However, I did say in another thread that I would join the lynch mob if Leone starts this weekend, so I may have to eat my words soon.

I'm a fan of Cortez, who won the cup a mere 2 years ago and was fine last year until Sunseri became his best option at qb. Overall, coaching is not a weakness on this team. We mainly lose because of mistakes at crucial times from our young guys.

[Blitz]

Sorry Cromartie, no backsliding from me in this thread. However, I did say in another thread that I would join the lynch mob if Leone starts this weekend, so I may have to eat my words soon.

I'm a fan of Cortez, who won the cup a mere 2 years ago and was fine last year until Sunseri became his best option at qb. Overall, coaching is not a weakness on this team. We mainly lose because of mistakes at crucial times from our young guys.

Then why is our defense playing so much better now that we have Roh outside, rather than inside, Minter inside with Brooks for a while now, and Westerman taking reps inside and now that we are blitzing more, using Bighill, Johnson, and Lee most often as blitzers and getting pressure on quarterbacks so often, we are now getting interceptions and playing defense much better.

But that has nothing to do with coaching?

[TheLionKing]

I find it interesting that suddenly we have the talent to win the Grey Cup (assuming we make the playoffs). According to some experts we lacked talent earlier in the year.

[MexicoLionFan]

As Blitz said, Huff and Trestman both knew how crucial play calling is and were slow to hand it over (I don't think Trestman ever did). Tedford doesn't even seem to have a say in the offence at all, which is bizarre beyond belief, because I know for myself, I would have had almost complete control over the offence in year one, and certainly the play calling. I don't get Tedford's approach at all and as he is playing with fire in BC and with its fan base.

And as for as Joe's comments, Wally's fingerprints are ALL OVER the on field product largely because he still controls this football team through all THREE coordinators. They do what HE wants and thus our style of play is the SAME STYLE he has run for 20 years...it's a bit stale to say the least. And as I have said ad nauseam, unless Wally's VICE GRIP over the on field product disintegrates this off season, nothing will change! With or without the likes of Jennings and Harris.

Lots of fair and good points being made here, but I do question the above narrative. Not being in the coaches meetings, I can't disprove it, but I also don't see any strong evidence of an unhealthy degree of meddling. Of course, there has to be coordination between the coaches and gm on personnel needs and so forth. Head coaches also have be willing to delegate to and trust their assistants, and this is especially when true when one of your assistants (Cortez) has a long and proven track record of success.

What is your evidence for the statement: "Tedford doesn't even seem to have a say in the offence at all"? I think he backed off on a couple "innovations"--the no huddles, the H-back--because it wasn't working very well, and also injuries to Lulay and Morrah. Sometimes you have to evaluate and readjust.

Max, if you could go back and watch Cal football games, you would easily see how this year's Lion's offence in no way resembles anything that Tedford ran. Again, NCAA football and the CFL are different, but Tedford's hallmark in the US has been a variety of formations, mostly power formations, where the Defence does not easily know who has the ball or which direction the play is going. That simply is NOT the case in Vancouver this season!

[MexicoLionFan]

I find it interesting that suddenly we have the talent to win the Grey Cup (assuming we make the playoffs). According to some experts we lacked talent earlier in the year.

Mea culpa. TLK, I was very concerned about our base of talent last year and through the first half of this year, but that was when Minter and Brooks weren't playing, Roh was trying to be a 250 DT (with no experience), Westerman was our starting DE (with no experience), our other DE was a platoon with Smith and Bazzie (a case can be made that neither should be in the CFL at this point). Our Defensive was flirting with a 2-2-8 formation (which Washington actually ran on EDM's game tying drive last week) with no one at safety for the 7th straight year. Plus, we were stubbornly running an offensive system that invited BLITZING defences, and whose solution was to throw long with an injured QB who never could throw a deep ball accurately to a group of SMURF receivers (outside of Manny). Plus, a predominately INT OLine was struggling trying to block up to 8 defenders and create holes for one of the league's best runners. The fact is, until Minter and Brooks were inserted at DT, and then Jennings became QB along with bigger, faster receivers, an actual safety and Roh at DE, this team looked, IMO, the WORST in the league! It's always amazing how good or bad the players look depending on the coaching...

But the key to the Lion's roster looking like it can win playoff games comes back directly to Jennings...its tough to win a single game in the CFL without a good QB...this kid looks to me like he is going to become a very, very special football player.

[cromartie]

I'm a fan of Cortez, who won the cup a mere 2 years ago and was fine last year until Sunseri became his best option at qb. Overall, coaching is not a weakness on this team. We mainly lose because of mistakes at crucial times from our young guys.

I think there were Rider fans last year who would argue whether or not he was fine. He was so fine that JC is a revelation to them. Cortez lost the lockerroom and jettisoned out of Hamilton in less than two seasons.

How you can classify the work of McMann and Washington as 'not a weakness' is beyond me, but there are plenty of people who have done more than make that case more articulately than I.

[maxlion]

Then why is our defense playing so much better now that we have Roh outside, rather than inside, Minter inside with Brooks for a while now, and Westerman taking reps inside and now that we are blitzing more, using Bighill, Johnson, and Lee most often as blitzers and getting pressure on quarterbacks so often, we are now getting interceptions and playing defense much better.

But that has nothing to do with coaching?

Well, I don't understand that either. I could say that it takes time to figure out how best to integrate new players, and there is a learning curve for guys playing their first CFL games, but obviously the coaches were trying something that wasn't working. I'm not sold on Washington, and didn't agree with letting Stubler go at the time, but our defense has shown some improvement and has mostly played well enough to give us a chance to win most games. Could be better, but some of that is on the players too.