The Old 4 Discussion

[MexicoLionFan]

Bruce and Simon ARE a major part of the problem with our offence (see LAST in big plays)...they simply do NOT possess the ability to gain separation from DBs...and you don't have to look any further than the statistics that bare it out, or Simon's catch Sunday on the throw from Reilly on 2nd and inches...that should have been a TD...instead Simon was tackled as soon as he caught the ball...

As to BCFANs list, I actually find myself disagreeing on a few things, which I rarely do with BCFAN...

First, Bruce is gone, and it is Simon who will likely come back for less money and a reduced role...more of a mentoring role for his final 2 seasons...likely...although, I am of the mindset that both should go this off season...the future of this receiving corp is NOW and it should feature Courtney Taylor foremost...I think with a full off season and a featured starting role, he will be an All Star next year...Moore is going to be very good, as will Jackson...Iannuzzi is good already, and Gore is a star in the making...plus Akeem Foster, with mentoring, should develop into a very good WR...as for Paris, sadly he needs to go...Keith Godding spent a year on the practise roster, and based on his last pre season, he needs to be that backup guy next season, not PJ...

Second, Valli MUST go or be demoted to a backup role...he simply is NOT good enough to start in this league...flat out...JHR and Newman should go as well...Reid should stay for one more season, but we should also bring someone else in to train to take over the position...I would also be okay with letting Reid go and bringing in a proven CFL starter at Centre...Kabongo can stay, he is a good team mate and a decent backup, but he shouldn't be starting...Wally must take every possible step to resign Olafoye...he is a dominant Tackle, and with all the change on the OLine for next season, he and Archibald are absolute MUSTS to return. Matt Norman is going to be a 10 year, Jamie Taras like, starter for the Leos...2 more to fill now...

Third, either Mckenzie or Sol has to go...and based on the effort, maybe it should be Sol E??? Likely he will try down south, making him a CFL Free Agent upon his return. Reddick slumped towards the end of the season and we must get better play out of that important position next season...I would say that he will be playing for his job next season.

Fourth, Byron Parker should be one and done with the Lions...the team brought in 3 very good DB prospects last season that showed they have size, speed, cover skills, and moxy...this group was led by Josh Bell and one of them should take over the open spot...which should be Phillips wide side HB position...because Phillips should be moved back to the wideside corner spot...Muamba will be fine at safety...he will improve in his 2nd full season...Banks and Marsh still have at least one more good season in them...Lin J Shell should actually be shown the door as well...he did not make much of any difference this season, as a rotational player, and he does not have the speed, skills or age to take over for either Banks or Marsh in 2 years...we need to get younger and faster at that position as well...

Fifth, DLine has to change as well...BCFAN is quite right, there is nothing wrong with Khreem Smith, but we can get faster, younger, and stronger with someone like Jordan or Evans outside...Jordan showed that he has to be on the game roster...as for Taylor and Mitchell, I would actually prefer to give Mitchell another shot, and let Taylor go...and his age, with his enormous size, injuries are simply going to take over his game, as happened to some extent this season...Mitchell should rebound next year...plus, Westerman showed that he is ready to start and be part of a rotation in his 2nd season...

Sixth, the Lions do NOT need to panic about Mike Reilly...if other teams go after him in FA, then he is gone...DeMarco showed more than enough to become the backup next season...plus, I don't see Reilly becoming a top CFL QB with all of the significant flaws in his passing game...however, he does have the tenacity and courage to prove me wrong...

Seventh, McCallum should go...Paul was an All Star FG kicker again this season from the 40 yard line in...but outside the 40 he fell apart, as did his punting game, and his kickoffs for the most part...Paul could do an admirable job for another season or 2, but we have Hugh O'Neill sitting on the injured list for 2 seasons now, and it is simply his turn...we let Whyte get away and that can't happen with O'Neill...

Eighth, Coaching...there is nothing wrong with our coaches, short of McMann, and even he turned his crew around in the 2nd half of the season...Stubler stumbled in the WF, but he is a HOF DC...Chaps was good again, and our inability to score Sunday came more from the fact that Lulay couldn't throw properly, rather than any poor play calling...Dorazio should retire...it is time for Kelly Bates to take over the OLine and turn our fortunes around there...as Blitz said, even Winnipeg was able to turn Sorensen into a decent centre...another season with Dorazio and Sorensen wouldn't have been able to stand on the sidelines...MB was great in his first year, and he will learn from the lesson taught in the WF...

The bottom line is that there is LESS work to do than most think...the players for the Defence are already HERE, some on the practise roster...guys like Josh Bell, Brandon Jordan, Maurice Evans, Gerard Lawson, etc, need to play on the active roster...Westerman is going to be a star at DT...Brandon Jordan could become a terror at the shortside DE...Offensively, the receivers are already here, as are the QBs if Reilly leaves...it is ONLY on the OLine where we must become aggressive and active to fill 2 important spots there...and I think that in another year, Ben Ossai would be ready to take over from Archibald at OT...or perhaps fill in for Olafoye should he stick in the NFL...O'Neill is already there as the kicker...bringing back Angus for one more year, might be the best route for continuity...as then we may only have to find one new starter (at RG for Valli) and have a NI train under Angus for 2014...

If Lulay returns healthy, this team will become the favourite to win it all again next year...we have that much talent and depth...and by starting O'Neill, Norman, Taylor, Moore, Jackson, Iannuzzi, Westerman, Jordan, and Josh Bell, we become a much younger roster, with more speed, more power, and for a lot less money...without skipping much of a beat...because remember this...our offence hit its stride ONLY when Taylor, Moore, Jackson and Iannuzzi started...and when they exited out of the lineup so did our wins and offensive success (at Calgary, game 18 vs. Sask and the WF)...and with 1 or 2 new solid starters on the OLine added, we could become a much better offense next year...

[Anglophone]

I disagree on Khreem Smith. I've seen him make big plays when we need them. He's extremely underrated by everybody, which allows him to slip by in the shadow of our other monsters on the Dline. Look at his numbers - 7 sacks. That's not "too old to play" material.

And he keeps his cool and doesn't take unnecessary penalties.

He's fought off challenges to his roster spot for years. I'm sure he will continue to do the same.

[Blitz]

Fascinating post MexicoLionFan..very insightful

I won't respond to your entire post. Just a few comments.

~Josh Bell needs to start next year
~Our Leos will only bring one of Simon and Bruce back next year and I agree with you that it will probably be Simon who will stay but I would rather both go and we make the transiton to youth now. Travis can lead this offence and he will lead it with more assurance with the vets gone.
~I'll be surprised if Reed returns. Not sure if we can trade for a non-import center and we also need a guard...the two key aquistions we need for next season.
~I like Eric Taylor but he is older than Khalif...we really should only keep one of them. If it were not for Taylor's age I would let Khalif go.
~McKenzie is older than Sol E. but I would still say goodbye to Sol E. He really doesn't want to be here. We have good depth at linebacker -both import and non-import. Jordan needs to be in there next season -he has such outstanding upside.
~I also think we can get another season out of Marsh and Banks...they both had good seasons
~Muamba was better than LaRose at safety. Its a very tough position to play and experience there makes a huge difference. Muamba will be better next year
~I have been a McCallum fan for a long time but its time to say goodbye and make the transition here as well.

[Upper Bowl]

Reid should definitely be brought back for another season, while I'm on the fence about McCallum. He was good in the West Final, and I think he may have one final good season left in him. But I'm on board if they start the kicker transition now.

I'm never one to support knee-jerk reactions, but I believe both Bruce and Simon should be let go. They need to be, for all of the previously-stated reasons on this board. The biggest reason of all: The young receivers have shown they can flourish. This may also help free Travis, because now he won't feel forced to look for Geroy as much.

This will really test Wally's fortitude as GM. Cutting Geroy will have a negative PR impact, but it's the right thing to do. If Wally really does believe it's better to cut a player one year too early, than one year too late, he needs to do this.

[WestCoastJoe]

Ah ... Gheezus, D. Just went to post, and bang ... blank white screen. ****

Why the hell does it do that? I open another page, and the website is there, without problem.

But the post is gone. Can't go back. Empty. Can't go forward. Blank. Gheezus. Usually I save it first. This time. No. **************

[WestCoastJoe]

Keerist sakes.

Any how ....

Helluva post, MLF.

And once again, welcome to the site. You add a great deal.

[WestCoastJoe]

Recreating a bit of the lost post .... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

MLF, I agree with virtually everything you wrote.

Perhaps one slight difference.

For quite a while I have posted that IMO our talent is not "superior" to that of other teams. Our talent is fine, except in the NI O Line, where 10 years of Dan Dorazio has not given us the skill and depth one would expect after all those drafts, and years to train (the cupboard should be full IMO). Our receivers are good, but our most talented guys are stuck behind our two aging Hall of Fame veterans.

And I see great talent throughout the league. Game breaking receivers all over the place. Good running backs. Great DBs. Excellent LBs. Talented D Lines. One thing is the final four have the top quarterbacks. Ray, Glenn, Lulay, Calvillo. These are top guys. I've never been a Burris fan, but he was smoking hot at times this year. I don't think he inspires his team as much as the forementioned guys though. And IMO Durant can be sulky, and probably greased the skids for Greg Marshall.

So I see us as competitive in talent, but not superior.

Our coaching is as good as anybody's, at times better.

Our personnel guys, Shivers and McAvoy are as good as anybody. Roy has been hitting a lot of home runs lately.

Wally is a terrific GM. Better at that than the coaching IMO.

Benny has the makings of an outstanding Head Coach.

One area where our players have been superior is in their character. Banks, Marsh, McKenzie, Bighill, Reddick, Smith, Williams, Taylor, Archibald, Olafioye, Reid, Simon, Bruce, Lulay, Harris, Paris. These are all special people. Never say die. Fight to the end. For the team.

And our experience and wisdom are also exceptional.

(I lost this original post. This is kind of rehash of it, but you get the idea.)

[WestCoastJoe]

From Lowell Ullrich ...

B.C. Lions: No answers in a losing locker room, but coach and GM need some

By Lowell Ullrich, The Province November 19, 2012

Call it an exercise in self-discovery gone horribly wrong.

Mike Benevides wanted to learn many things upon being named coach of the B.C. Lions, and when training camp got under way he sought to know more about the mindset of a champion player.

The CFL team had just won a Grey Cup, of course, but Benevides wanted to hear from others. Six players had won rings with other teams, and it was those from whom he wanted to learn how they coped with failure the year after their biggest success.

“Why? Whenever you have to think something out, you learn a lot about yourself,” said Benevides. “It also proves whether you believe it or not.”

Or, how badly you want it, too.

None of the six made a repeat visit to the Grey Cup, and after a few minutes had been played in Sunday’s 34-29 loss to the Calgary Stampeders in the West Division final, it appeared as if Benevides had the answer about the rest of the Lions.

“There are no answers in a losing locker room” said Arland Bruce, one of those who won a Grey Cup in 2004 but faltered a year later, sitting with his Lions ring from last year nearby. They had been beaten badly. Now, more questions await.

Benevides and general manager Wally Buono crafted a team without suffering a Grey Cup hangover but instead gave themselves a different kind of headache.

B.C. will have no trouble retaining the core of the 13-5 team, with only seven players to become free agents if they are not re-signed Feb. 15 (see chart at end of story). The list grew smaller during the playoffs when the club signed J.R. LaRose, Jason Arakgi and Joash Gessee to contract extensions.

But despite the relative ease with which the Lions can rid themselves of unwanted players, Buono and Benevides face a task no less difficult than the months following the 2008 and ’09 seasons, when they also stumbled badly at the division finals after massive off-season upheaval.

What now? What to do when all the parts were assembled and it still wasn’t enough? The items to be up for discussion in the office of the head coach are varied. Here are some that are sure to be on the list:

Know any non-import offensive linemen? With Jon Hameister-Ries, Dean Valli and Jesse Newman down early, the Lions probably got as far as they deserved to go this season. Newman has a knee problem. Hameister-Ries has been hurt his entire career. Throw in the what the Lions might want to do with Angus Reid and whether Jovan Olafioye leaves for the NFL and you have a huge potential issue.

Give up or receive? A month ago, the Lions thought they had too many import receivers and let Kierrie Johnson go to the Saskatchewan Roughriders. Off their season finale, that move looked like a colossal mistake, as the Lions were handcuffed without a deep threat.

Buono has to choose wisely, combining the right amount of experience with Geroy Simon, who said he wants to return, and Bruce. The two are a combined 6-11 in division finals. Meanwhile Nick Moore, Courtney Taylor and Ernest Jackson wait.

Everyone can’t come back, just as the Lions are sure to cut ties this time with non-import Paris Jackson, even if Shawn Gore tries for the NFL again. Contribution from non-import receivers Sunday: Four catches for 34 yards combined.


The secondary is now primary: The lack of finish from the pass rush Sunday exposed an aging coverage unit, with four starters now over 30 years of age. The back end was part of a defence that was exposed worse than Jon Cornish without his pants, giving up 478 yards, the worst performance since Oct. 16, 2010.

“That was horrendous,” Dante Marsh said after the game.

Byron Parker and Lin-J Shell were supposed to be the final pieces after being sent away by the Toronto Argonauts. Their former team made it to the Grey Cup without them. Parker is now winless in six tries to make it past a division final.

There’s also a decision to be made with pending free agent Cauchy Muamba, whose play at times had his detractors yearning for the heady days of Tad Crawford at safety.

Age before youth? That question must be answered at several positions in addition to the receiving corps and secondary. Paul McCallum remained a reliable field-goal kicker but his kickoffs became increasingly shorter. That will lead the Lions into a discussion of whether to build a roster that includes a spot for Hugh O’Neill, who can’t be expected to sit for a third straight year.

Khalif Mitchell never came close to matching his 2011 season. That will lead into a talk as to whether to go with Brandon Jordan, 24, or top rookie finalist Jabar Westerman on the defensive line. Will Khreem Smith be asked back as a 34-year-old when the Lions tried to cut him at training camp? Anton McKenzie will be 32, five years older than Solomon Elimimian.

Those discussions and others must take place long before Benevides can again ask players what it’s like to be a repeat champion.

Players who will be CFL free agents if they are not re-signed before Feb. 15 by the Lions:

Offence: QB Mike Reilly, OLs Jovan Olafioye, Jon Hameister-Ries, Jesse Newman, WR Shawn Gore;

Defence: S Cauchy Muamba, ST James Yurichuk, LB Solomon Elimimian.

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Lions ... z2CmhRgJXy

[Blitz]

If anyone doesn't see that speed in the slot postion makes a huge difference, all you have to do is look at Chad Owens play in the EDF on Sunday. We have to get faster there.

[Rammer]

If anyone doesn't see that speed in the slot postion makes a huge difference, all you have to do is look at Chad Owens play in the EDF on Sunday. We have to get faster there.

Speed anywhere helps in football, size plus speed helps even moreso (ask Johnson about that). It is also why I was considering a move of Mitchell out and Jordan in, I just like his speed vs Mitchell's push.

[cromartie]

Do people actually think Gore is NFL bound? I didn't think his numbers were good enough to get that league's attention

Whether we think he's NFL bound or not, (and he shouldn't be, frankly) he doesn't want to sign an extension because he thinks he's NFL bound.

[Spud387]

Geroy Simon wants to be back with #BCLions Says he will play next year, if its here GREAT. Also willing to go elsewhere will play in 2013

Given Simon's resume and being very healthy until this season. I personally think he needs to be given at least one more season to prove himself. I am of the belief that when you have a resume like that you've earned the right to a chance to prove it one of "one-off." Remember, this is his first sub 1000yd season in how many seasons?

Also, Simon playing elsewhere would drastically hurt PR relations as Simon is still the single most recognizable player to the casual fan.

[Blue In BC]

Geroy Simon wants to be back with #BCLions Says he will play next year, if its here GREAT. Also willing to go elsewhere will play in 2013

Given Simon's resume and being very healthy until this season. I personally think he needs to be given at least one more season to prove himself. I am of the belief that when you have a resume like that you've earned the right to a chance to prove it one of "one-off." Remember, this is his first sub 1000yd season in how many seasons?

Also, Simon playing elsewhere would drastically hurt PR relations as Simon is still the single most recognizable player to the casual fan.

It's not a matter of having to prove anything. It's a matter of other issues which include a player on the downside of his career and what role he might fill at what cost. At the right price he could have a role although it may no longer be as a full time starter. It could be as a back up on the 42 man roster or on the 46 man roster as insurance.

Ratio and roster space for other players is also a factor.

This is similar to the Bombers and Stegall. IIRC Stegall choose to retire. Whether he was pushed to do so due to SMS issues is a little less clear. In theory he probably could still be playing. He wouldn't be the Stegall of 2007 anymore than Simon.

[bc49]

I think Wally is going to have the off season talk with both Bruce and Simon as he looks to upgrade the slots with faster and younger. I suspect Bruce will be released but Simon, in the respect he deserves, will be given a softer landing with a reduced pay, reduced playing time option. I don't know if Simon is ready to go for that idea, he (and Suits) still thinks he can play at a high level and if another GM agrees you very well may see 81 in a different uniform next season.
Another option for Bruce is he could fill in for P.Jackson as the pat-on-the-back-sideline-guy.

[MexicoLionFan]

I think it is clear that most of us here are all on the same page with regards to next season...and the reality is, there actually are NOT a lot of additions needed...most everyone is already here...it is the OLine that Wally MUST target in the offseason...1 if Reid stays and 2 if he goes...plus our draft must yield us another Matt Norman type player...

And I will stress this again...if Lulay is healthy and stays healthy next season, I don't see anyone beating us...we lost to Calgary for a variety of reasons, but none larger than we didn't have Travis Lulay at QB...we had someone who gutted it out, but simply couldn't throw...