Morgan v. Jones

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Sir Purrcival
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Did anybody catch that farce of an interview last night between Piers Morgan and Alex Jones on CNN?

I can't say that I am a big fan of Piers Morgan but that Jones guy is just downright scary! I can't really imagine ever having an argument with him without worrying that he would pull out one of his "50 Guns". He seems to have some major anger issues. I can't imagine that many gun owners really support the guy as spokesperson for the anti gun control movement.

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Last edited by Sir Purrcival on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Toppy Vann
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Guns like health care are two topics that even some of my best friends in the USA can't see except through the 'conventional' thinking that believes in guns for the people and the single payer system in health care we have in Canada is evil socialism.

While we need to understand guns through the history of the USA and their belief that an armed citizenry is key to ensuring freedom from despots and dictators, their is a need to bring gun thinking into line with modern reality.

I heard one guy on P. Morgan who spoke of the need for 3 boxes in America:
1. the soap box.
2. the ballot box.
3. the bullet box.

The sad irony is that if there is a gun in your home you are likely less safe than those who have no guns. That is for those who aren't living where there are some wild rogue dangerous animals that you need to fear.

One gun advocate cited the problems in China as middle aged men using knives to attack children in schools versus young males with guns in the USA. What that guy ignores is that it is hard to get a gun in China and if you use it, you'll likely be hunted down and shot.

In Hong Kong where I am working there are no guns except for the police and many locals think the police should go the British way and give up their guns. Most shootings by police since I have been there have been of guys with knives or other non gun weapons.
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Sir Purrcival
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Is it just me?

What strikes me profoundly is that some of these gun advocates. They (types like Jones) talk ad nauseam about need guns to protect their rights and freedoms. All the while it appears that the freedom and security that seems to be so important to them is completely lost in fear and paranoia. It seems almost unimaginable that you have a gun in your home to feel safe.

In watching that interview, it strikes me that if the international banks wanted to take something from guys like Jones, it wouldn't be his guns, it would be his money and the means to fight and feed himself. Economic warfare would be far more effective than any gun legislation. Constant vigilance fuelled by fear of having something taken from you doesn't appear to be freedom at all. Sadly, it appears in the US that it would be easier to apprehend a child from someone rather than their gun.
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WestCoastJoe
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There are some gun advocates in Canada too. Played poker with some of them. Same attitude as we have seen with the Americans. Protective of their rights. Ticked off at discussion of registering guns in Canada. Can't talk to them about it. Same guys deny global warming. And say blow up Iran and Iraq (even though there is not much left there). Oh yeah, and blow up Afghanistan too.

Heard a theory that in Europe, when the monarchies started fading out, there were no guns yet. So possessiveness had not taken hold, and the gun culture did not develop, American style.

Jones was as paranoid of his own government as he was of "megabanks" and "world tyranny." And he got into a near fight about taking off his shoes at an airport on the way to the interview with Morgan. He seems to be loaded with steroid courage and aggression.

I thought Jones looked like he was about to take a swing at Morgan. Dunno if Jones hurt his cause, or helped it. No doubt his constituents and listeners (radio show) loved his performance.
...............

This topic could get hot here. And I suppose if it does, we can just shuffle it off and lock the thread.
...........

Oh yeah, in the USA ... Guns for everybody (teachers, etc.). Recreational drugs for nobody (maybe changing slowly). Nudity for nobody (God forbid :shock: ). Prescribed drugs for everybody. Liquor for nobody (OK they got rid of those laws). Immigration for nobody. Health care for the rich. Social security for the rich. Taxes for the poor. Military service and wars to fight for the poor. Fast food for everybody. ...
TheLionKing
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Wow, that Alex Jones is a scary dude
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Toppy Vann
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Sir Purrcival wrote:Is it just me?

What strikes me profoundly is that some of these gun advocates. They (types like Jones) talk ad nauseam about need guns to protect their rights and freedoms. All the while it appears that the freedom and security that seems to be so important to them is completely lost in fear and paranoia. It seems almost unimaginable that you have a gun in your home to feel safe.

In watching that interview, it strikes me that if the international banks wanted to take something from guys like Jones, it wouldn't be his guns, it would be his money and the means to fight and feed himself. Economic warfare would be far more effective than any gun legislation. Constant vigilance fuelled by fear of having something taken from you doesn't appear to be freedom at all. Sadly, it appears in the US that it would be easier to apprehend a child from someone rather than their gun.
This is far too sophisticated thinking for a red neck gun advocate or moron like this Jones dude.

Just need to look at how China is dealing with Japan over those rocky outcrops called islands. The Chinese people incl. Hong Kongers are all fired up about the history of the islands and don't acknowledge that the PRC gov't is really only on about the offshore resources that come with their possession. In fact it was only recent discoveries off shore that led to China bringing the issue up again.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-0 ... -economies

This is a new story on Bloomberg:
China-Japan Dispute Takes Rising Toll of Asia’s Top Economies
By Bloomberg News on January 08, 2013

The last time a dispute between Japan and China blew up in 2010 over eight uninhabited islands, the economic fallout lasted less than a month. This time, the spat is prolonging a recession in the world’s third-largest economy.

Four months after Chinese consumers staged a boycott of Japanese products over the islands in the East China Sea, sales of Japanese autos in China have yet to recover, Chinese factories began to favor South Korean component suppliers, and the U.S. has displaced China as Japan’s largest export market.
The latest flare-up came after property developer Kunioki Kurihara sold three of the islands to the Japanese government for 2.05 billion yen ($23 million) in September, a transaction Xi Jinping, the new head of the Chinese Communist Party, called “a farce.”

The fallout from the sale may have cut Japan’s growth in the latest quarter by about one percentage point, JPMorgan Chase & Co. estimated. That would be enough to keep the economy in recession after two quarters of contraction up to Sept. 30.
This 'war' has nothing to do with guns. It is 1.3 billion people market deciding to buy and source from Japan's competitor.

With regard though to the issue in the USA, the 2nd Amendment is intended to make sure the locals can arm themselves against a tyrannical gov't of their own making. I guess they need automatic weapons for that but all the while ignoring the fact that times have changed since those days. Folks now have too much to lose to mount an insurrection in a democracy like the USA.
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David
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It's really hard to argue with Morgan's logic and motivation here, but if he thinks he's going to affect change in what amounts to a long-standing, devisive, politically charged issue, inexorably linked to a country's constitution, good luck!

What is it though with Brits going to "America" as they call it and trying to change the culture? On a much more benign scale, chef Jamie Oliver deperately attempted to reform "America's" flawed school lunch menu in the TV show Food Revolution. Altruistic? Yes. Noble? Certainly. But they're foreigners (yes, English speaking foreigners but still outsiders) and - as a first generation Canadian with British parents so I think I am entitled to say this - they come across more than just a touch sanctimonious.


DH :cool:
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/09/us/vermon ... ?hpt=hp_t2

Vermont city takes step toward banning assault rifles

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/giffor ... ?hpt=hp_t2

Gabrielle Giffords and Mark Kelly launch battle against gun lobby: No more 'fear'

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -shooting/

Bloomberg anti-gun ad marks second anniversary of Arizona shooting
TheLionKing
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The Wild West mentality is so ingrained in the American culture it will take decades to reverse it.
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WestCoastJoe
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James,

Yes, my Dad fought in World War II with the Canadian forces. I almost joined our forces for a stint in my twenties. The application process took over 6 months, and by the time they offered me a commission, I had taken a good job I did not wish to leave.

A couple of my poker buddies were the ones that wanted to talk about/against gun registration in Canada. Nobody else was really interested, except to ask: If it is OK for the government to register cars and drivers, why is it not OK to register guns and gun owners?

The safety precautions you have taken in your house are admirable. But those standards would not be met in many households, I expect.
jcalhoun wrote:Tell ya what WCJ --no hard feelings. During the Lions bye-week this summer why don't you come out to Poco and we'll spend the afternoon at the range. Did you have any relatives that fought for Canada in WWI or WWII? If you did, I can bring the standard service rifle for both wars and you can see and try firing what your grandfather used. Punch some holes in some paper. It's good clean fun. You'll leave with a sore shoulder and a huge smile.
Thanks for the invitation to go to the shooting range. :beer: However, I have never taken anyone up on such an offer. Shooting guns just doesn't interest me.
Awesome. Gun talk. WestCoastJoe, all due respect, but you're about to get both barrels.... nothing personal, but I'd take cover..... :cool:
I am carrying no weapons. :wink: I don't own any. And I have to admit the idea of hunting animals does not appeal to me either. In a different age, I acknowledge that I would have had to get used to the idea of hunting and trapping, et cetera, for food.

As I said earlier, this discussion could get hot, as people on both sides of ownership/registration of guns have strong opinions. Nothing resolved. No hard feelings.

WCJ
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WestCoastJoe
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jcalhoun wrote:WCJ

Good man. How about a cannon? Wanna shoot a cannon? We gotta shoot something!
LOL
And yes, I do own a cannon.

Tell you what --this summer I'll swing by the tailgate and buy you a beer, and we can do what we're doing here: shooting the sh*t.

Cheers,

James
We can "shoot the breeze" over a beer sometime, James.

Peace ...
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Toppy Vann
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I'm a firearms owner and gun advocate. Which, statistically speaking, means I'm 50% less likely to commit a homicide than a non-gun owner (and these are Canadian stats, presented to the House of Commons Standing Committee On Public Safety and National Security regarding Bill C-391. I'd refer you to the work of the aptly named criminology professor Gary Mauser at SFU).
I had Mauser as a Marketing prof and he is a full fledged nutter by any meaning of the word.

Check out his research for a business prof. Not my cup of tea as an MBA student. My class mates IIRC had similar views on this dud.

I am not sure how he was able to get tenure and be in the business school when all this American guy is on about is guns.

I learned little from him except what kind of an a-hole he is where on the first night of classes - Exec MBA class - when a class mate of ours arrived late having got just off an airplane leaned over and quietly asked the guy next to him what page of the text to go to and this complete dork goes nuts and asks him to step outside and act like children there. It was the most disgusting, arrogant display by a prof I had ever witnessed. And then it was right back to marketing examples - religion and guns.

More easy to take was Brian Williams on Letterman where he had just got back to NY from Utah and showed a copy of Farm and Ranch Magazine. In it was a full page ad that showed a nice large ranch landscape photo. At the top a caption - Peace of Mind at 1200 Yards. Down at the bottom some sort of Bushmaster type gun. His point is that this would not be upsetting to that mag's subscriber base.

I was a reference for a father of one of my soccer players (a gun owner who doesn't store his guns at home). I thought it was a good thing as I could have said anything negative confidentially in that if I was concerned or knew the man to be anything but a good non-violent citizen.

The stat that a gun owner is less likely to commit a homicide while an interesting statistic is quite meaningless. Of the gun deaths and shootings by gang in and around our city and community (Port Moody even!!) were not committed by Martians. My grand daughter's soccer was cancelled not that long ago by a shooting there! Are we becoming oblivious to this stuff. Port Moody also had a recent shooting at a Starbucks lot! We really need to give our heads a shake folks. We are assuming risks that in a rec centre in the suburbs just cuz they killed a former gang guy? Well most of those at that venue are kids and families going to sports!

If anyone likes a clown like Mauser you'll love this set of statistics:

http://www.conservativedailynews.com/20 ... ould-know/
“The Middle Ages were a time of notoriously brutal and endemic warfare. They also experienced rates of ordinary murder almost double the highest recorded U.S. murder rate. But Middle Age homicide “cannot be explained in terms of the availability of firearms, which had not yet been invented.” (Kates & Mauser, Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 30, No. 2)
The odds of being in a victim of a mass shooting are far less than that of being struck by lightning.
I love the graphic. Baseball bats are the US killer's first choice weapon.

All of this stuff is fine but tell that the families and survivors at Sandy Hook especially the lightning part.
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Sir Purrcival
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Hey JC. I would like to add my cudos to you for the precautions that you take in regards to your firearms. There are many who don't however.

Regardless, the situation in Canada is hardly analogous. The main difference is that there is a far greater degree of regulation on weapons in this country than for our neighbours to the south. Certain types of weapons that aren't available here are there. These are weapons not for hunting, or realistically even self defense. Much like a 200 mile per hour street legal sports car that gets driven too fast, or how certain kinds of dog breeds are attractive to the "wanna be tough" crowd, there are weapons that appeal to the masses for their eye candy value and not their pragmatism. I'm not gonna get hung up on the semi automatic thing too much because indeed, most guns are semi-automatic these days but I am not convinced that having a Glock with 17 rounds is going to be more effective at deterring the would be intruder than a hunting rifle with 5 or 6 rounds. The same goes for these "civilian" models of what are basically military weapons. They attract the nutters as you call them and you rightly point out that some of the reason for this is because of how these weapons are portrayed in popular media.

I don't quite fathom the argument that because people run out and buy these weapons after an event like Sandy Hook, that it means that nothing should be done about them. Sure for a time the number of such weapons might increase but an outright ban would begin to tell over time. Guns break down, get confiscated or disposed of for a variety of reasons. Given time the numbers would decrease. More importantly, it would put up a barricade to the acquisition of new weapons even illegally as the costs would be sure to rise above the $900.00 price range that I can get an AR-15 for currently. Comprehensive gun regulation might take generations in the US to have an effect but only because things have been left so wide open for so long.

I am content with the restrictions that we have on weapons in this country. I for one am infinitely relieved in the knowledge that I can look at most people on the street an be reasonably confident that none of them are packing a hand gun. I also agree with you that most gun owners are probably quite reasonable and responsible. I collect swords, these could also be used as lethal weapons but the simple fact of the matter is that if I were go on some kind of a rampage, it would be far harder for me to inflict the kinds of damage that we have seen when weapons that can fire many rounds in a short amount of time are at hand. And this above all else is why the Americans have the problems they do. They have at their disposal the kinds of weapons whose main purpose is to inflict high amounts of damage in a short period of time. Hunters, home defenders have no need for these kinds of weapons. The gun should be considered a scalpel not a scythe.

I agree with idea that guns aren't inherently evil. They are a tool and used correctly have their place, they are also very dangerous and in most cases, people have no need for this kind of tool except under very select circumstances. A point which I think you would probably agree with. It isn't the responsible gun owner that I am after but truthfully, a responsible gun owner in my book wants the weapons he needs for the specific job and nothing more.
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