Aghan War to Cost Canadians $22 Billion

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Toppy Vann wrote:spending priorities of government should be more focused on doing positive things for the people and also aid to other countries.

People in Canada are struggling to get good jobs these days and higher education costs these young people more today

Spend that 22 billion at home first
TV, I understand you don't see military action as positive. I do. When we liberate a country (Whether it is Kosovo, Haiti, Iraq or Afghanistan) and allow people the chance for democracy, I think that's positive. In Afghanistan, women now have the chance to go to school, vote and get jobs. That is huge empowerment!

I have seen that line time and time again, yet I'm only 20. I can't imagine how many times you've seen politicians say those lines. Of course education costs go up, we can thank inflation for that. And define 'good job'. The problem is 'good job' is a subjective term so it is impossible to define. But it sounds good when Jack Layton or Barack Obama or the next big politician is at the podium.

Spending 22 Billion at home is a good idea, but spending it in Afghanistan so we can replace a terrorist-coddling theocracy with a free-market democracy is better idea in my opinion. Why? Because not only are we eliminating a 'home base' for terrorists, we're reducing their number of potential recruits. When people have an education and a job, why blow yourself up? Lastly, since the country is functional and no longer a fourth-world country we can trade with it and benefit from its talents and output.
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MacNews...you should be getting a job as a spin doctor. While you are on message sounding like a Dick Cheney *poop*, I am not so sure you understand where a nation's foreign policy should begin and end. Our national interest with Afghanistan should be to stop the flow of their crops coming to Canada as heroin!!! Not whether there women can go to school. That is not reason to be there fighting an unwinnable war. It is good that Vietnam is long behind as the spin docs today can say losing is winning now. What a joke. There are not enough armies in the world to defeat every bad despot and who gives the right to decide who is good and bad? Right now the US is a rogue nation violating the rights of detainees to any sort of trial and justice. Hmmm strange.

If you think Afghanistan is so safe, maybe a road trip there might suggest otherwise.

Good job means a job that pays sufficient to allow people to go to University or other forms of higher education and training and not be thousands of dollars in debt at the end. Sawmills and the forests and related industries are what I am referring to. Students today pay more of their education costs in Canada than those setting these policies in place. I believe in higher education for all who are able and willing and it should not be just about the money. This will pay dividends in smarter citizens, new businesses, etc. Families today are struggling. I am fine but it is what the kids and families of today will have for their futures that concerns me. The governments are financially okay but taxes are too high. Wars are dumb if they are not in your national self interest. Diplomacy and other means have worked and will work.

The United States has got to end this period of militarism and rogue behaviour and address their real issues long term or this world will be fighting over oil and other resources.

You think too narrowly Macnews. Read some Vancouver Sun articles by Jonathan Manthorpe. He gets it. Comedians get it. It is time for citizens and leaders to get it.

When you are back riding your bike you might think of this by Manthorpe:

"But the era of cheap oil is over. It is over in part because of the huge and increasing new demands for energy by people in India, China and other countries...."

Now the bad news MacNews:

"At least as concerning for the U.S., however, is that after creating its empire on the back of oil self-sufficiency, America now imports 12 million barrels of the 20 millions barrels of oil it consumes each day."

The widely respected -- but as with many figures associated with the oil industry, equally widely disparaged -- analyst Daniel Yergin estimates that in the first half of this year the U.S. paid $1.3 billion US every day to oil-producing nations.

That's $475 billion US every year and, Yergin notes, that number rapidly gets astronomical once what China, India, Japan and the European Union are paying for imports is added on.

And the people who are reaping this windfall of economic power -- outside Alberta, of course -- often have agendas that are malign.

Just take the duplicitous royal regime running Saudi Arabia as the best known example.

The Riyadh regime on the surface is all smiles and professes to use its influence to ensure certainty of supply at market-based prices. But then is uses oil revenues to promote violent religious intolerance, child indoctrination and terrorism through its funding of radical religious schools all over Islam.

============

The rest of the story is here:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/colu ... 2824b76e45
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Toppy Vann
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I think this thoughtful writer and world view guy should give us all pause for thought:



http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/feat ... 5949825295

The landscape has changed for the U.S.
Sept. 11, 2001, brought an unfamiliar sense of vulnerability
Jonathan Manthorpe, Vancouver Sun columnist
Published: Wednesday, September 10, 2008


That change has been propelled primarily by the decision to invade Iraq on what proved to be the spurious argument that Saddam Hussein had a hand in the 9/11 plot and was equipped with weapons of mass destruction.

So Washington took its eye off the ball of confronting al-Qaida and its allies in Afghanistan and the Pakistan border region - to which should be added the terrorists' duplicitous paymasters in the Saudi Arabian royal family.

That distraction is being paid for now as the U.S. and allies such as Canada confront embedded insecurity in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Conflicting responses to the Afghan regional insurgency among North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies have already levered a philosophical fissure between Europe and America. That in turn has contributed to a renewed antagonism with Russia....Meanwhile U.S. forces are daily extending the Afghan war against al-Qaida and its allies into Pakistan.




"....Many aspects of American public life have been bent out of shape by the unfamiliar sense of vulnerability the came in the wake of the attacks on New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001.

Freedoms have been curtailed, quasi-authoritarian activities by government welcomed, and principles of justice on which the republic was founded have been abandoned in the quest for security.

A generation ago it would have been inconceivable to imagine the American people acquiescing in legally questionable detentions at Guantanamo Bay, the approved use of torture and constrained military trials for alleged terrorists.

But public disquiet in the U.S. about these aspects of the "war on terror" is at last beginning to become significant. ...


Just this week a panel of 22 distinguished retired American politicians and officials produced a report giving the administration of president George W. Bush a "C" grade for making little progress in truly protecting the U.S. from a nuclear, biological or chemical attack. That likely means the Department of Homeland Security and its men in black will remain the dominant and stultifying force in the U.S. public service.


In the drive for revenge and reassurance, treasure has been squandered to a degree that has damaged the United States economy and left Washington with a $400-billion annual budget deficit.
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If our feds were worried about the drug problem here in Canada the troops would be stationed at the docks
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If the Afghanistan war was about empowering women it woulda started 20 years ago
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Toppy Vann wrote:That is not reason to be there fighting an unwinnable war.

There are not enough armies in the world to defeat every bad despot and who gives the right to decide who is good and bad?

I believe in higher education for all who are able and willing and it should not be just about the money. This will pay dividends in smarter citizens, new businesses, etc.
I agree Jonathan Manthrope is a great writer, and I read his articles every week with anticipation.

I disagree that it is an 'unwinnable' war, because we are relatively close to winning it already. The Taliban/Al-Queda are using mentally-challenged women and young children to carry their bombs. Tell me, if NATO troops are so dis-liked in Afghanistan, then how come the Taliban can't find any men agreeing to blow themselves up?

You're right we don't have enough troops to liberate the whole world, but we have enough to free Afghanistan so let's focus on that. You say educating women was not the main focus of invading Afghanistan, and you're right. But I consider it a pretty good bonus. These people are getting proper medical care, some for the first time in their lives. Again, not the primary focus at the beginning, but a pretty good side-benefit.

And as for your last point on education, you're correct having an educated population is a great idea. But you don't want to go over-board. In France post-secondary is free at public universities, so a majority of high-school graduates obtain a bachelors degree. The result? Everyone having a degree has driven down the value, so it is almost worthless. Most university graduates can't find a job now, because everyone has a degree so it is nothing special, just another piece of paper.
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All I do is ask the guys and girls that I come in contact with on a regular basis.

Yes, I come in contact with the men and women of our Canadian Forces regularly as my company donates office space to the Canadian Forces from which they can conduct their business.

Many of the Regular members I meet and talk with have done multiple tours over in Afghanistan and not one of them thinks we shouldn't be there. They are telling me they are making a difference in the lives of the regular Afghan person and believe that Canada has an obligation to be there (so do many other NATO nations who are shirking their responsibilities).

They talk of pride in their role and mission and are disgusted by the people who talk negatively of the work they have done and are continuing to do. They tell me about how people who say we shouldn't be there, should be the first ones to volunteer to help the Afghans after we pull out. To talk of the interests of Canadians is to forget that we are a world leader and as such we are putting our money where our mouths are - much to the chagrin of some other nations. For those that talk of no "Canadian interests" are considered those with the Ostrich mentality - instead of facing the issues, it is better if we put our head in the sand and hope it goes away.

Surprising to many historians and Canadian Forces members is how people try and use the "no Canadians attacked or hurt" and "no Canadian interests" yet also try and use WWI and WWII as some form of defence. It was ok for us to go and fight the Germans, even though Canada had not been attacked in either war, but it's not ok to go to the aid of another country who was having problems with a world known terrorist organization who HAS killed Canadians, has used Canadian soil to plan other terrorist attacks, and has planned attacks against our citizenry. Why the double standard? Why was Hitler's invasion of Poland so ok with everyone to suffer through 45,300 killed and 53,174 wounded? Was the Archduke Ferdinand such an important person to Canada to suffer through 66,944 deaths and 149,732 wounded?
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Supporting your troops is not just cheering them on into battle. If Canadians put as much time into researching this issue as analyzing BC Lions football they'd be coming to the same stark realization that Scott Taylor (former Canadian military) has come to in his fine publication Esprit de Corps.

See what Scott Taylor of Esprit de Corps is saying about how safe it is:


http://www.espritdecorps.ca/

His last paragraph refuting those like who like Mr. Goebbels in WW2 suggested Germany was uber alles but they weren't:

... unless there is a dramatic shift in strategic direction, the battle for Afghan hearts and minds will be lost. As long as the status quo remains, the wider war will remain unwinnable and the number of casualties will continue to climb.

"Large-scale terrorist attacks have rocked Kabul several times this year, and last month 10 French soldiers were killed in an ambush just outside the Afghan capital. Also in July, an American outpost in southern Afghanistan was practically overrun by a battalion-sized force of insurgents. That bloody battle left nine U.S. soldiers dead and another 15 wounded before the surviving Americans and Afghan army troops could be evacuated by airlift.

The most disappointing factor in this equation for the Canadians is that our troops continue to fight for control of the same territory. After 30 months of deployment in Kandahar and numerous offensives and counter-offensives, obscure villages like Panjwaii, Arghandab, Zhari and Spin Boldak have become household names for average Canadian citizens as they are repeatedly heard in newscasts pertaining to the deaths of our soldiers. "

The Canadian battle group may be capable of maintaining tactical superiority over the Taliban in Kandahar. However, unless there is a dramatic shift in strategic direction, the battle for Afghan hearts and minds will be lost. As long as the status quo remains, the wider war will remain unwinnable and the number of casualties will continue to climb.
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It is ironic to me that those who support the fighting do so on blind faith. Yet, we'd not cut that same slack to the Lions coach when he does things we think are crazy and deaths of soldiers are more important than football.

Below is a story that includes quotes from former Chief of Defence staff Rick Hillier who denounced the insurgents as "detestable murderers and scumbags." I love how this dude thinks. This is the same Hillier who to use a term the war mongering leaders like to use has now "cut and run." If he believed he should have seen the mission through.

This is how presently serving in Canada's military and a former leader in Afghanistan sees things. Col. George Petokelas penned an "Open letter to the Taliban." He says to them that Canada "will continue until [the Taliban] are no more."
Now he has since said he is sorry but let's face it when you are in the military and see people dying around you like that all the rest of the stuff about the women and children rationales go out the window.

How a Canuck colonel took the Taliban fight too far

http://www.espritdecorps.ca/Ontarget%20080908.htm

By Scott Taylor
September 8, 2008

"Over the course of the summer the war in Afghanistan has taken an ominous turn for the worse. The violence has continued to escalate, coalition casualties mount steadily, and an emboldened Taliban are flexing their muscles well outside their traditional strongholds in southern Afghanistan....

Some other gems on the Colonel's Open Letter:


"Instead of using his knowledge of the complexity of the Afghanistan circumstance, the good colonel reiterated the same old simplified talking points to justify Canada's continued participation in the mission. First of all, Petrolekas' claim that the Taliban's "only questionable legitimacy comes from the barrel of a gun" is undermined by the fact that a number of Taliban leaders have been democratically elected and presently serve as opposition members in Karzai's parliament, and that an estimated 35% of Afghans still subscribe to the Taliban's religious teachings.

While he is certainly well aware of the distinct difference between the international al-Qaida terrorist organization and the Afghan Taliban movement, he deliberately lumps them together as "fellow travellers in crime" in order to invoke the "slaughters of Bali, Madrid, London and New York City.""
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Some background on the recent history of Afghanistan written by Scott Taylor who visits these countries unembedded!!!
Go here for the whole story.

My apologies to all those who know why Canada is helping out in Afghanistan and just love this mission. Of course you all know this history about the Soviet Union and the USA - or do you???? I am quoting this guy as he is one of the best informed close to the military writers there is. He makes his living off these guys and he is not going to bite the hand that feeds him stories. He does get huge attacks for his stories in a Halifax paper. The attacks are very well written and support the military and not him at times. The coherence of the writing suggests that it is insiders attacking him not average readers of some small Halifax newspaper.

The good news is that we don't have the numbers to put in there unlike the Soviets in 1979 and more recently the USA in Iraq/Afghanistan.

http://www.espritdecorps.ca/Ontarget%20080312.htm

Afghanistan comes full circle as NATO seeks Russian help

By Scott Taylor
March 12, 2008

One of the most ironic twists to the ongoing mission in Afghanistan emerged from the NATO meetings held in Brussels last week. With member countries either reluctant or unable to add military resources, NATO is now seeking assistance from Russia, its erstwhile Cold War enemy and one-time "evil occupier" of Afghanistan. In fact, the irony is so thick that we should first roll back decades' worth of propaganda and start at the very beginning....

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The impasse that resulted in Europe did not prevent the U.S. and Soviets from waging war by proxy in non-aligned Third World countries around the world. Afghanistan, in fact, became a key battleground for the CIA and the KGB....
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Throughout the '50s and '60s, Soviet engineers undertook several major infrastructure projects in Afghanistan...including the ... tunnel ...which provided the first viable access between the ... northern and southern provinces. A full-scale program was introduced to train Afghan army officers and a large number of economic aid packages were extended to Kabul's Communist government.

The Americans decided things were going a little too smoothly for the Kremlin, so they decided to stir things up a little. By arming and funding Afghan Muslim extremists who were already resisting the social changes, the Americans sought to draw the Soviets into a full-scale military intervention.

By 1979 events had escalated to the point where the instability, lawlessness and flourishing drug trade along their shared border could no longer be ignored by the Kremlin. Following a coup staged by the KGB in Kabul, the newly appointed Afghan Communist president invited Soviet troops to deploy a security assistance force to help him stabilize Afghanistan.

------------------

...the U.S. vehemently denounced the invasion of Afghanistan and ...pulled their athletes out of the 1980 Moscow Olympics. Behind the scenes, the U.S. ramped up military aid to the Afghan guerrillas and assisted in bringing in foreign mujahedeen fighters - such as a young Saudi Arabian zealot named Osama bin Laden - to bleed the Soviets white.

The stated objectives of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan were to provide a secure environment, equality for women, a centralized education and medical system, and the training of a self-sufficient Afghan army. While this may sound eerily similar to the current wish list for the NATO coalition in Afghanistan, a friend of mine at the American embassy was quick to point out one fundamental difference: "The (Soviets) were Communists," he emphatically stated, as if that in itself made any further explanation unnecessary.

The U.S. plan worked like a charm and by the time the last of the Russian troops retreated out of Afghanistan in 1989, they had left behind 50,000 dead comrades, the Moscow treasury was bankrupt and the Soviet Union was in a state of dissolution. The U.S.-equipped Afghan warlords finally triumphed over the Communist regime in Kabul and then turned on each other in an orgy of destruction and bloodletting. Whatever Soviet-built infrastructure was still intact in Kabul in 1996 was destroyed when the Taliban movement forced the mujahedeen warlords north of the Hindu Kush.

In the wake of 9-11, the planners in the White House must have suffered from short-term memory loss as they rushed to throw their troops into the very same trap they had built to destroy the Soviets. After using military force to topple the Taliban, the Americans appointed Hamid Karzai as president. His first act as leader was to invite the U.S.-led coalition to deploy a security assistance force to prop up his regime....

Now into the seventh year of their occupation and with the American economy on the point of collapse, NATO is looking to Russia for help in transporting troops and equipment into Afghanistan. With the skyrocketing oil prices boosting the Russian ruble to dizzy new heights and no one asking for their troops to fight and die in Afghanistan, it would seem that the wheel of fate has turned a full circle.

If you want to drive this point home, go out and rent an old copy of Rambo III. That's the sequel wherein Sylvester Stallone fights alongside the guerrillas, and the final credits dedicate the movie to "the brave mujahedeen in Afghanistan."

I kid you not."
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Most of this I believe. The Soviets and the US were involved in a struggle with each other right from the end of WWII and still are for the most part although in my view, it has diminished somewhat since the early 90's. Perhaps changed more to an economic battle than a territorial one. Nevertheless, now we are there (Afghanistan), how we got there is pretty moot.

There are only two things that matter at this point in time.

That we withdraw our forces at the end of our current commitment.

This is not so much a statement about "win ability" as it is a statement about contribution. After 9 years (2011), my attitude is that Canada will have done its share regardless of outcome. If after that amount of time, the withdrawal of our forces represents a major threat to the ongoing stability of the region, then that is tantamount in my mind to saying that the initiative was a failure.

That in future, other such missions have a clearly defined commitment and greater participation from other Nato and UN nations.
This is a NATO run operation and it is UN Sanctioned. The contributions from the members of NATO have been uneven to say the least. If you are a member of NATO, it should be like you are a soldier who has enlisted. You contribute men and material whenever NATO runs an operation. Uncomfortable with that? Quit and don't expect to hide behind it's skirts if you do. This shouldn't be a pick and choose option. Membership has it's privileges and obligations. This pick and choose stuff is BS.

I still think that the answer to International operations should be a combined force that member countries (UN) contribute men and $$$ to. This force has it's own equipment, command structure and soldiers have a fixed tour of duty that becomes part of their service records at home. No more of this, we will play here and not play there and no more of this country does it this way and that country does it another. It also includes poorer nations who typically have no role in this stuff and when it is an International operation, it should!
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Sir Purcival... a well thought out post in my view.

I too agree with your take and the need for a combined force to fight wars of oppression. The problem in this NATO case is that most think the Americans are the problem and are out to lunch on this one and they saw how Russia got their arses handed to them by the Afghans.

The mission changed under General Hillier. I think it was Esprit de Corp's Scott Taylor who said that. Whoever said it put it this way. PM Chretien had to do something to support the US post 911. Afghanistan welcomed them into search for Osama who indicated it was Al Quaeda behind 911 attacks. But when PM Martin took over, the government of the day was so focused on saving themselves they let Hillier shift the mission to fighting along with the other good stuff like posted in the articles.

Chretien like the Europeans with the exception of Tonly Blair knew Iraq had no WMD and would be a trap that no one could get out of and that is the case now so they took on the hunt. The reality has been that other NATO countries aren't deploying their forces in forward fighting positions like Canada has or at least to this extent. The Australians think that Canada's tactics of going out from their compound to clean up the area and then return to base is what is putting them at risk. Wars usually involve taking the ground and having enough troops to hold it, not head home only to come back the next day and see if there is an IED waiting to blow you up.

I am glad someone else has offered up points of analysis and discussion as I quite frankly don't like the direction this country is taking.

I am going to keep posting up attacks on the Afghan war, someone else is welcome to find someone saying what a wonderful war it is.
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This outfit thinks the Afghan war is bad:

Who We Are

Foreign Policy In Focus (FPIF) is a "Think Tank Without Walls" connecting the research and action of more than 600 scholars, advocates, and activists seeking to make the United States a more responsible global partner. It is a project of the Institute for Policy Studies.

FPIF provides timely analysis of U.S. foreign policy and international affairs and recommends policy alternatives. We believe U.S. security and world stability are best advanced through a commitment to peace, justice and environmental protection as well as economic, political, and social rights. We advocate that diplomatic solutions, global cooperation, and grassroots participation guide foreign policy.

What We Do

FPIF publishes commentaries, briefs, and reports on its website http://www.fpif.org and organizes briefings for the public, media, lawmakers, and legislative staff. Staff and other FPIF experts also write for newspapers, magazines, and other online publications and author books on foreign policy and international affairs. FPIF experts speak frequently on television and radio programs and are often quoted by print and online journalists.

============

Afghanistan: Not a Good War

Conn Hallinan | July 30, 2008

Editor: John Feffer

http://www.fpif.org

Every war has a story line. World War I was “the war to end all wars.” World War II was “the war to defeat fascism.”

Iraq was sold as a war to halt weapons of mass destruction; then to overthrow Saddam Hussein, then to build democracy. In the end it was a fabrication built on a falsehood and anchored in a fraud.

But Afghanistan is the “good war,” aimed at “those who attacked us,” in the words of columnist Frank Rich. It is “the war of necessity,” asserts the New York Times, to roll back the “power of Al Qaeda and the Taliban.”

Barack Obama is making the distinction between the “bad war” in Iraq and the “good war” in Afghanistan a centerpiece of his run for the presidency. He proposes ending the war in Iraq and redeploying U.S. military forces in order “to finish the job in Afghanistan.”

Virtually no one in the United States or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) calls for negotiating with the Taliban. Even the New York Times editorializes that those who want to talk “have deluded themselves.”

But the Taliban government did not attack the United States. Our old ally, Osama bin Laden, did. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same organization (if one can really call al-Qaeda an “organization”), and no one seems to be listening to the Afghans.


We should be.

What Afghans Say

A recent poll of Afghan sentiment found that, while the majority dislikes the Taliban, 74% want negotiations and 54% would support a coalition government that included the Taliban.

This poll reflects a deeply divided country where most people are sitting on the fence and waiting for the final outcome of the war. Forty percent think the current government of Hamid Karzai, allied with the United States and NATO, will prevail, 19% say the Taliban, and 40% say it is “too early to say.”

There is also strong ambivalence about the presence of foreign troops. Only 14% want them out now, but 52% want them out within three to five years. In short, the Afghans don’t want a war to the finish.

They also have a far more nuanced view of the Taliban and al-Qaeda. While the majority oppose both groups –13% support the Taliban and 19% al-Qaeda – only 29% see the former organization as “a united political force.”

But that view doesn’t fit the West’s story line of the enemy as a tightly disciplined band of fanatics.
Whither the Taliban


In fact, the Taliban appears to be evolving from a creation of the U.S., Saudi Arabian, and Pakistani intelligence agencies during Afghanistan’s war with the Soviet Union, to a polyglot collection of dedicated Islamists to nationalists. Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar told the Agence France Presse early this year, “We’re fighting to free our country. We are not a threat to the world.”

Those are words that should give Obama, The New York Times, and NATO pause.

The initial invasion in 2001 was easy because the Taliban had alienated itself from the vast majority of Afghans. But the weight of occupation, and the rising number of civilian deaths, is shifting the resistance toward a war of national liberation.

No foreign power has ever won that battle in Afghanistan.

War Gone Bad

There is no mystery as to why things have gone increasingly badly for the United States and its allies.

As the United States steps up its air war, civilian casualties have climbed steadily over the past two years. Nearly 700 were killed in the first three months of 2008, a major increase over last year. In a recent incident, 47 members of a wedding party were killed in Helmand Province. In a society where clan, tribe, and blood feuds are a part of daily life, that single act sowed a generation of enmity.

Anatol Lieven, a professor of war at King’s College London, says that a major impetus behind the growing resistance is anger over the death of family members and neighbors.

Lieven says it is as if Afghanistan is “becoming a sort of surreal hunting estate, in which the U.S. and NATO breed the very terrorists they then track down.”

Once a population turns against an occupation (or just decides to stay neutral), there are few places in the world where an occupier can win. Afghanistan, with its enormous size and daunting geography, is certainly not one of them.

Writing in Der Spiegel, Ullrich Fichter says that glancing at a map in the International Security Assistance Force’s (ISAF) headquarters outside Kandahar could give one the impression that Afghanistan is under control. “Colorful little flags identify the NATO troops presence throughout the country,” Germans in the northeast, Americans in the east, Italians in the West, British and Canadians in the south, with flags from Turkey, the Netherlands, Spain, Lithuania, Australia and Sweden scattered between.

“But the flags are an illusion,” he says.

The UN considers one third of the country “inaccessible,” and almost half, “high risk.” The number of roadside bombs has increased fivefold over 2004, and the number of armed attacks has jumped by a factor of 10. In the first three months of 2008, attacks around Kabul have surged by 70%. The current national government has little presence outside its capital. President Karzai is routinely referred to as “the mayor of Kabul.”

According to Der Spiegel, the Taliban are moving north toward Kunduz, just as they did in 1994 when they broke out of their base in Kandahar and started their drive to take over the country. The Asia Times says the insurgents’ strategy is to cut NATO’s supply lines from Pakistan and establish a “strategic corridor” from the border to Kabul.

The United States and NATO currently have about 60,000 troops in Afghanistan. But many NATO troops are primarily concerned with rebuilding and development – the story that was sold to the European public to get them to support the war – and only secondarily with war fighting.

The Afghan army adds about 70,000 to that number, but only two brigades and one headquarters unit are considered capable of operating on their own.

According to U.S. counter insurgency doctrine, however, Afghanistan would require at least 400,000 troops to even have a chance of “winning” the war. Adding another 10,000 U.S. troops will have virtually no effect.
Afghanistan and the Elections

As the situation continues to deteriorate, some voices, including those of the Karzai government and both U.S. presidential candidates, advocate expanding the war into Pakistan in a repeat of the invasions of Laos and Cambodia, when the Vietnam War began spinning out of control. Both those invasions were not only a disaster for the invaders. They also led directly to the genocide in Cambodia.

By any measure, a military “victory” in Afghanistan is simply not possible. The only viable alternative is to begin direct negotiations with the Taliban, and to draw in regional powers with a stake in the outcome: Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, China, and India.

But to do so will require abandoning our “story” about the Afghan conflict as a “good war.” In this new millennium, there are no good wars.

Conn Hallinan is a Foreign Policy In Focus columnist.
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But the Taliban government did not attack the United States. Our old ally, Osama bin Laden, did. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same organization
Wow. The Taliban? Really?

Do you really want the Taliban back in power? Why, so they can destroy the Kandahar hospital? Destroy the improvements we are making the to university? Force women to sit at home for their entire life?

Well they weren't fibbing, they're sure activist all-right.
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Sir Purrcival
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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Comox Valley

To be perfectly honest, no war is winnable in the traditional sense of the word these days. Looking back to even WWII, the beginning seeds of modern terrorism were sown by the Resistance in France. Small, hit a run tactics, no visible targets to strike and so on.

Jesse Ventura, the former wrestler, come Governor of Minnesota and former Navy Seal concluded that Iraq was just like Vietnam and based his pronouncement on one simple question. According to returning troops he talked to, He asked "Could you distinguish between the enemy and friend?". The answer was a universal "No".

Afghanistan is really no different. I don't doubt that much of the populace doesn't want the Taliban running things otherwise, it would have gotten much messier for foreign troops much more quickly. But that does not mean that patience for a settled outcome is limitless. Just as people in this country have questioned "What is being accomplished", so too are those questions being asked by Afghanis.
And unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of people in the region who are willing to press their agenda's by the use of a suicide attack or roadside bomb. I am of the opinion that we could be there 50 years and this would still be a problem. The only goal that I see worth pursuing at this point is self-sufficiency for the Afghani Government to allow them to continue the fight which will go on long after we are gone. In short, we are trying to apply some western ideas to a region that has never played by these rules. Tribal warfare and religious fundamentalism have always been a part of that region. The difference now is really one of sophistication. What once was restricted to small regional conflicts has evolved both in scale and efficiency. The sword and primitive rifle has been replaced with rocket launchers, heavy calibre automatic weapons and the ability to electronically reach out to others who share the same ideals of terror sharing knowledge and technique along the way.

If we are lucky, perhaps we can prop up the Afghani's long enough to be able to deal with their own domestic problems but it has all the earmarks of another Iran, or El Salvador or Nicaragua. After we are gone, the enemies will still be there, the local government will require support in $$$ and arms to stay afloat and eventually, it will all collapse as that administration gets out of hand in its attempts to retain power. I hope that isn't the way it unfolds but will we be looking at the situation in 20 years asking ourselves how could we have supported such a government?
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
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