Harris Basically Says Good Bye

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WestCoastJoe
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Blitz wrote: I don't completely agree with you WCJ but I understand where you are coming from and feel your passion.
It is a complicated issue these days, Blitz.

Even in war, sometimes a soldier should choose not to do what his leader wants.

Magic Johnson had such talent, success and influence he got his coach fired. Not saying that is right, but times change. Heck Joe Kapp pretty much ran the Lions after 1964, I gather. I recall him sending the FG team back off the field when the coach sent them in. And those teams floundered of course.

Wally uses the media to send messages to players. It is part of the culture he has created. After a number of episodes some players are going to speak out. In the case of Harris, it seems he wanted changes to the offence. Selfish? Sure. Was he right about the offence? I agreed that the offence needed changing. Ever coach a difficult player? Many of us have. Some of those difficult ones are the best players, and some become long time friends after. A lot of communication is needed to work together in such situations. And if the culture of an organization is somewhat sick, stuff gets said. And most players would just suck it up, keep quiet, and suffer in silence. Better career prospects that way.
In a general sense I would not normally agree with you WCJ on this type of issue. In most situations, I would not support a player making the types of comments that Andrew Harris has made. Imagine every player on every team speaking out to the media about their role in the offence or defense or the strategies of the team? It would be anything but good.
Chaos. And that is part of the culture that exists in some dysfunctional outfits.
Essentially he has been called unprofessional as well as detriment to the locker room. Not good stuff or wise stuff to say publically, no matter if they truly are Wallys' views or Wally is just doing a trash job in response to Harris comments. Harris comments are mild in comparison, were not personalized, nor did they disaparage any individual.
Yes, I see it that way, too.

The culture starts at the top. The first time I heard that word used with a team was from Igor Larionov, when he was with the Canucks. He said the team had to build a culture. I believe it is true, for teams and for any organization. A bit of "do as I do," not so much "do as I say."

Hufnagel has built a good culture in Calgary. Cornish has had his moments of "misbehaviour" or difficulty. But he is not a bad guy. I would say Harris is not a bad guy, and has been even less of a problem than Cornish. The culture starts at the top. Hufnagel and his organization were able to reel Cornish in, so to speak. Communication is part of what makes a good culture. Fair values. Good treatment. Bad culture? Stuff happens.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Blitz
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Hufnagel has built a good culture in Calgary. Cornish has had his moments of "misbehaviour" or difficulty. But he is not a bad guy. I would say Harris is not a bad guy, and has been even less of a problem than Cornish. The culture starts at the top. Hufnagel was able to reel Cornish in, so to speak. Communication is part of what makes a good culture. Fair values. Good treatment. Bad culture? Stuff happens.
While a toxic work place can be created by the boss or by employees, my view of our Leos is that its Wally who is setting the culture and its not a good one. Free agents don't want to come here because of Wally.

Wally is not being a leader at all right now and that is more than understating it. IMO.

I know how you strongly you canidentify with a certain Leo player and how you will also fight for the underdog (which I think is admIrable). I think Andrew Harris can be difficult on occasion. But if anyone should be able to deal with it wisely it should be Buono. He had a challenging youth like Harris. You would think Buono would be to understand Harris much better than most, know what drives him, what makes him tick, the road he had to take.

I'm pleased that you posted some photos of Harris. He wears his heart on his sleeve. Passionate about the team, his own play. Can get occasionally frustrated (and most of us on here share his frustration with our offence) and not his best when he gets frustrated. But except for those few occasions, Harris has been a tremendous asset. He has made a ton of incredible plays for us and brought fans out of their seats so mnay times.

He doesn't deserve what is happening right now.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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WestCoastJoe
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Blitz wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Hufnagel has built a good culture in Calgary. Cornish has had his moments of "misbehaviour" or difficulty. But he is not a bad guy. I would say Harris is not a bad guy, and has been even less of a problem than Cornish. The culture starts at the top. Hufnagel was able to reel Cornish in, so to speak. Communication is part of what makes a good culture. Fair values. Good treatment. Bad culture? Stuff happens.
While a toxic work place can be created by the boss or by employees, my view of our Leos is that its Wally who is setting the culture and its not a good one. Free agents don't want to come here because of Wally.

Wally is not being a leader at all right now and that is more than understating it. IMO.

I know how you strongly you canidentify with a certain Leo player and how you will also fight for the underdog (which I think is admIrable). I think Andrew Harris can be difficult on occasion. But if anyone should be able to deal with it wisely it should be Buono. He had a challenging youth like Harris. You would think Buono would be to understand Harris much better than most, know what drives him, what makes him tick, the road he had to take.

I'm pleased that you posted some photos of Harris. He wears his heart on his sleeve. Passionate about the team, his own play. Can get occasionally frustrated (and most of us on here share his frustration with our offence) and not his best when he gets frustrated. But except for those few occasions, Harris has been a tremendous asset. He has made a ton of incredible plays for us and brought fans out of their seats so mnay times.

He doesn't deserve what is happening right now.
:thup: Yep. I agree.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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MexicoLionFan
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Blitz wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Hufnagel has built a good culture in Calgary. Cornish has had his moments of "misbehaviour" or difficulty. But he is not a bad guy. I would say Harris is not a bad guy, and has been even less of a problem than Cornish. The culture starts at the top. Hufnagel was able to reel Cornish in, so to speak. Communication is part of what makes a good culture. Fair values. Good treatment. Bad culture? Stuff happens.
While a toxic work place can be created by the boss or by employees, my view of our Leos is that its Wally who is setting the culture and its not a good one. Free agents don't want to come here because of Wally.

Wally is not being a leader at all right now and that is more than understating it. IMO.

I know how you strongly you canidentify with a certain Leo player and how you will also fight for the underdog (which I think is admIrable). I think Andrew Harris can be difficult on occasion. But if anyone should be able to deal with it wisely it should be Buono. He had a challenging youth like Harris. You would think Buono would be to understand Harris much better than most, know what drives him, what makes him tick, the road he had to take.

I'm pleased that you posted some photos of Harris. He wears his heart on his sleeve. Passionate about the team, his own play. Can get occasionally frustrated (and most of us on here share his frustration with our offence) and not his best when he gets frustrated. But except for those few occasions, Harris has been a tremendous asset. He has made a ton of incredible plays for us and brought fans out of their seats so mnay times.

He doesn't deserve what is happening right now.

Almost always a little adversity leads to massive breakthroughs and positive changes in life. Let's just look at all of this as necessary for Andrew Harris to take the next step in his career and life. Trying to prove your worth to an unappreciative audience isn't noble or enduring, its just a self repeating pain. By moving on, perhaps everyone involved will learn and benefit from the experience, even Buono...who knows. What I am certain of is that Andrew Harris in another CFL city that really desires his talents will take his CFL "fame" to another level. We simply have NOT witnessed the best from Andrew Harris yet...and this is something that I'll bet is gnawing at the back of Buono's mind.

Wherever Andrew ends up, I'll always be wishing him the very best!
"Condemnation Without Investigation is the height of ignorance."

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MexicoLionFan
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Even in war, sometimes a soldier should choose not to do what his leader wants. WCJ
Each of us is born with inalienable rights. We should all be able to speak our minds and choose our own fates without the opinions, rules and/or laws of others weighting us down. But this is NOT what society teaches us. We are taught (from a very young age), to be afraid, to follow the rules (thus others), and that everything in life is a risk that should be weighed instead of experiences that should be lived.

Andrew Harris was simply expressing his truth...how can that be "wrong"? If a team is so fragile that truthful comments from its members causes it to fail, then its not really much of a team!

But as human beings we have become frail creations in many aspects, nothing more than representations of what we have been TOLD to believe in...and most of us have been taught to be "good soldiers" and to hold our tongues for the good of the "platoon". If every single person on Earth was taught from birth that ALL LIFE was PRECIOUS, then NO ONE would volunteer or submit to war, regardless of the consequence. And if no one was there to fight the wars of the rich elites, then there wouldn't ever be wars, as they certainly wouldn't do it!

Andrew Harris spoke from his heart to the reporters and for this he was publicly attacked. Perhaps this isn't the place that Andrew should ply his trade. In CGY Cornish could even help him get into the banking industry!
"Condemnation Without Investigation is the height of ignorance."

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potbelly
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WestCoastJoe wrote:Regarding Andrew Harris speaking out ...

How many workers have the courage to speak out? Especially when the boss is an icon, a tough guy, who metes out punishment and dismissals as a key part of his job?

I applaud Harris. I do not see it as immature behaviour, but really as acting as a spokesman for himself and for all his teammates. It highlights the treatment veterans have always gotten from Wally Buono. Forced pay cuts. Dismissal before you are ready. Replaced by cheaper, younger players. Kick in the butt on the way out. No love. Parting on bad terms.

Heck, I remember Wally's early words on his arrival here back in 2003, as reported in the local papers. Any regrets about your career? Something to the effect of: "I wish I could have been nicer." I understand that comment now. When Wally is your adversary, or you are on opposite sides of an issue, he can be very, very tough. Ruthless even.

So I applaud Andrew Harris for speaking out. I do not see him as a prima donna player. I see a proud athlete who gives his all on each and every play. All out. Passionate. He wants an effective offence.

I know some adhere to the concept of what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room. What happens inside should stay inside. Although that is a nice concept for the organization, it is not necessarily nice for the inhabitants, the workers. Definitely not nice for the inhabitants. Meanwhile the Boss can paint his own picture in the media.

Suffer in silence? Not so likely nowadays.

Speak out? Yeah, probably you get moved. But sometimes one has to keep on looking. Sometimes one has to speak out.

Not a team player. Only out for money. Only out for more touches. Not professional. Go work in a bank. Demonized? To an extent in that he is only out for himself, a selfish player. This fan does not buy it.

In any case, I wish Andrew Harris all the good. Thanks for the memories.

This image is indelible for me. After a playoff loss. Nothing left in the tank. All in. This fan salutes you. :beer:

Others, of course, can, and will, see it differently.
I for one do not see it differently. This is spot on!
TheLionKing
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Wonder how long has this feud been going on.
potbelly
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MexicoLionFan wrote:
Blitz wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Hufnagel has built a good culture in Calgary. Cornish has had his moments of "misbehaviour" or difficulty. But he is not a bad guy. I would say Harris is not a bad guy, and has been even less of a problem than Cornish. The culture starts at the top. Hufnagel was able to reel Cornish in, so to speak. Communication is part of what makes a good culture. Fair values. Good treatment. Bad culture? Stuff happens.
While a toxic work place can be created by the boss or by employees, my view of our Leos is that its Wally who is setting the culture and its not a good one. Free agents don't want to come here because of Wally.

Wally is not being a leader at all right now and that is more than understating it. IMO.

I know how you strongly you canidentify with a certain Leo player and how you will also fight for the underdog (which I think is admIrable). I think Andrew Harris can be difficult on occasion. But if anyone should be able to deal with it wisely it should be Buono. He had a challenging youth like Harris. You would think Buono would be to understand Harris much better than most, know what drives him, what makes him tick, the road he had to take.

I'm pleased that you posted some photos of Harris. He wears his heart on his sleeve. Passionate about the team, his own play. Can get occasionally frustrated (and most of us on here share his frustration with our offence) and not his best when he gets frustrated. But except for those few occasions, Harris has been a tremendous asset. He has made a ton of incredible plays for us and brought fans out of their seats so mnay times.

He doesn't deserve what is happening right now.

Almost always a little adversity leads to massive breakthroughs and positive changes in life. Let's just look at all of this as necessary for Andrew Harris to take the next step in his career and life. Trying to prove your worth to an unappreciative audience isn't noble or enduring, its just a self repeating pain. By moving on, perhaps everyone involved will learn and benefit from the experience, even Buono...who knows. What I am certain of is that Andrew Harris in another CFL city that really desires his talents will take his CFL "fame" to another level. We simply have NOT witnessed the best from Andrew Harris yet...and this is something that I'll bet is gnawing at the back of Buono's mind.

Wherever Andrew ends up, I'll always be wishing him the very best!
I agree, and as always I am pretty sure he will come back to bite us in the ass, just like some others that Wally has dismissed.
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cromartie
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potbelly wrote:I agree, and as always I am pretty sure he will come back to bite us in the ass, just like some others that Wally has dismissed.
I agree. I mean, Allen Pitts went on to a great career with...um...uh...

Really. Both sides can be right here. Harris can feel misused, and Buono can feel he's disloyal and overblowing things. If you feel as if you're being misused as a resource at your job, you move on to another employer. I've been there and done that myself. Some people agreed with me, some people agreed with my employer. It was what it was.
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WestCoastJoe
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Back on October 2 in the Province Ed Willes asked what is Andrew Harris worth?

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Wille ... story.html
Throw in a 4-8 record for the Lions and the uncertainty that represents, and you’ve got a situation that’s pregnant with intrigue. It might not be as sexy as some of the big-time contract beefs in other sports, but in the context of the CFL, this is big business and a massive decision for the Lions and Harris.

“At the end of the season, we’ll make up our minds,” said Buono. “I’m not making those kind of decisions after 12 games. I don’t have enough information right now. Let’s wait for the end of this season and, hopefully, a couple of playoff games.”
Wally was not ready to decide what Andrew Harris was worth after 12 games. He didn't "have enough information." 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, playoff games, Grey Cup top Canadian, 12 games in 2015, and Wally said he needed more information. Sounds like he wanted Harris to show his worth in the final 6 games and in the playoffs. Put some pressure on him. Wally wanted to make his case publicly. Right there in the media. Kind of a kick in the pants to Harris, it seemed to me. Hardball by the Boss. Negotiating the contract in the media.

Didn't Wally raise rhe question of professionalism by athletes at season end? Didn't Wally hold up the example of Leone staying quiet?

To me it was astonishing, that after all those games and years, Wally wanted to see Harris perform for the rest of the year before putting a dollar value on his worth.

This fan sides with Andrew Harris in this public display. Messy divorce? Reconcilation possible? Who has been professional? What is fair for the GM? What is fair for the athlete? What is fair behaviour and fair treatment? Did Wally say or suggest anything derogatory about Harris? Did Harris say anything derogatory about Wally? Can only the GM go public?

Very messy. Very public. Many issues. Part of the chaos surrounding this organization.

Part of it seems to be about negotiating in public. Part of it seems to be about who is entitled to go public. Part of it seems to be about what constitutes professional behaviour, by an athlete or a GM.

And I would suggest there are issues of culture within this organization. Do as I do? Do as I say? Big difference. Boss and worker ... Different entitlement re speaking to the media? To the worker: Don't state your case in the media. That would be unprofessional. From the boss: But here am I stating my case in the media, acting in a professional manner.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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David
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Yup, I believe that is what you call the "smoking gun" evidence that Maxlion was looking for. :wink:


DH :cool:
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maxlion
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David wrote:Yup, I believe that is what you call the "smoking gun" evidence that Maxlion was looking for. :wink:


DH :cool:
Not at all. I asked for a source for the quote "(Harris) needed to prove himself over the last half of the season".

Is there a difference between that statement and saying that he (Buono) would wait until the end of the season to look at free agent contracts once all of the information is in? The former statement is one possible interpretation of what Buono actually said. Smoking gun? Not quite.

edit: there is a lot of information that goes into deciding how much to offer a particular free agent. It's not only about that player's performance on the field. I'm sure we all agree that Harris has proven himself to be an excellent player on the field.
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WestCoastJoe
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maxlion wrote:
David wrote:Yup, I believe that is what you call the "smoking gun" evidence that Maxlion was looking for. :wink:


DH :cool:
Not at all. I asked for a source for the quote "(Harris) needed to prove himself over the last half of the season".

Is there a difference between that statement and saying that he (Buono) would wait until the end of the season to look at free agent contracts once all of the information is in? The former statement is one possible interpretation of what Buono actually said. Smoking gun? Not quite.

edit: there is a lot of information that goes into deciding how much to offer a particular free agent. It's not only about that player's performance on the field. I'm sure we all agree that Harris has proven himself to be an excellent player on the field.
Context, max.

In a feature article about Andrew Harris, Wally is quoted regarding performance in the last six games and the playoffs, in the context of a contract.

In denying the statement, you narrowly define it to the last half of the season, rather than six games.

In denying the statement, you focus on the word prove, rather than words that amount to the same thing.

Do you expect anybody to believe in that article about Harris, that Wally was not speaking about Harris? Many fans think Wally was speaking precisely about and to Andrew Harris, without mentionong his name. You posted quotes of the two men in this public disagreement.

When Wally praised Leone for not speaking out, as an example of professional behaviour, with the implication that for an athlete to speak out was unprofessional, do you expect anybody to believe Andrew Harris was not the other player suggested by that implication and comparison?

When a name is deliberately not mentioned, but the context focuses on that player, the message via the media gets through loud and clear.

Wally, or someone speaking in his defence, could deny he was speaking about Andrew Harris, in the narrow sense of not mentioning his name, or because the quotation was slightly different. How many would buy that argument or defence?

Wally was not speaking about Andrew Harris. I do not buy it.

Wally did not apply his unprofessional behaviour suggestion to Andrew Harris. I do not buy it.

Wally did not apply his go work in a bank comment to Andrew Harris. I do not buy it.

Wally did not apply his performance suggestion for the final six games to Andrew Harris. I do not buy it.

Context, max. Which athlete spoke out? Andrew Harris. Which athlete had his contract status take on a life in the media? Andrew Harris.

This back and forth in the media was about Andrew Harris and Wally Buono. Not Travis Lulay. Not Jovon Olafioye. Not Manny Arceneaux. It was about and between Wally Buono and Andrew Harris.

In the opinion of this fan, and apparently others as well.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
maxlion
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There are lots of reasons to wait until the end of the year to negotiate contracts and most of them have to do with having more information at your disposal. Was there also an implied challenge in there to Harris, that his contract offer would be affected by his performance over the last third of the year? Probably. Wally is not above that, and I'm not sure that he is wrong. It's okay for a gm to challenge a player to raise his game when the chips are down.

Did Wally say that Harris had to prove himself over the last part of the year, that all of his previous years of service were meaningless or inadequate? No.
maxlion
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Wally's not above criticism, and I didn't like his comments at his press conference, as I've said before.

Harris is also not above critcism. His poor reaction to Buono's earlier statement, and focus on $$$ and winning personal glory during the team's fight to get into the playoffs was selfish and reflected badly on him as a leader and teammate.
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