Fire Khari Jones

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DanoT
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Sir Purrcival wrote:With regards to the throwin samoan, as much as the guy is likeable, I have never seen anything he touched football wise be it as player or coach that really turned out well. He was so-so as a QB, a disaster as head coach and I have to agree with you that with all the ex-receivers out there, might their be someone one a bit younger and even a "receiver" who might be a better choice for this position. As for an OC consultant someone mentioned somewhere, I was kind of thinking Anthony Calvillo. I don't know about his temperament, but here is a guy fresh out of the game, who certainly as an offense minded philosophy and who I think is available.
From a strategic point of view, I don't see the Lions bringing in outside help this season as it would take too long for anyone to come in an be able to offer any instant solutions.

More importantly, I predict a rush of season ticket non-renewals and then the Lions will try to stem the tide by bring in a Anthony Calvillo (sure would be nice if he was interested) or someone similar who they can tout as the fix for the O for 2015.

For the balance of this year I would turn the play calling over to Lulay or even Glenn because Khari Jones seems lost.

I have also mentioned in previous posts the Lions need to replace Dorazio with Bates, right away because it appears to me that Dorazio has lost the O line with his complex schemes.

Of course none of the above will likely happen because the HC is in over his head and is consistently out coached. As MLF noted the abysmal 3rd Q performance is exhibit #1

While other teams seem to target Lions tendencies such as lot of double teams on Arceneaux and also it seemed to me that the Ticats on most plays had a player target a hit on Elimimian on every play as a basic part of their game plan. OTOH the Lions don't seem to be able to target other teams weaknesses or tendencies maybe because the coaches can't recognize them. A smart OC will spend the early part of a game setting up a D by running a certain play off a formation all game long and then change it up with a similar look but different play. Lions can't seem to fool anyone.
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Sir Purrcival
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Yep, I'd be ok if Lulay was running the O and Bates the Oline. Could hardly be worse than it is and why pay extra people for mediocrity? As I have said many times, at this stage, the Lions aren't going anywhere in the playoffs (if they get there) so I would just as soon they completely fall apart if that is the catalyst for some real changes. This death by 1000 small cuts is getting old real fast.
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Rammer
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Sir Purrcival wrote:Yep, I'd be ok if Lulay was running the O and Bates the Oline. Could hardly be worse than it is and why pay extra people for mediocrity? As I have said many times, at this stage, the Lions aren't going anywhere in the playoffs (if they get there) so I would just as soon they completely fall apart if that is the catalyst for some real changes. This death by 1000 small cuts is getting old real fast.
I agree with that, but what it really is suggesting is that anything and I mean anything is better than what we have. Lions will once again be backing into the playoffs, if they find that path at all. Not a game plan that the fans will want to invest in.
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dupsdell1
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CardiacKid wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:I wrote Skulsky about my frustration after the Ottawa game. Asked him to give me reasons why I should renew my season tickets. His response was to keep the faith and that "we will be all right" I wonder if he still feels the same after tonight.
I am ready to tear up my season's tickets, my wife season's season tickets and our Grey Cup tickets and throw them in Skulsky's face. Too much energy wasted on guaranteeing wins and other such nonsense.



That is what everyone should do , but not in skulskys face but Braily maybe he will realize I have to gut this team from top to bottom t like the canucks did this year WHAT A MESS the lions are done .
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Rammer
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dupsdell1 wrote:
CardiacKid wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:I wrote Skulsky about my frustration after the Ottawa game. Asked him to give me reasons why I should renew my season tickets. His response was to keep the faith and that "we will be all right" I wonder if he still feels the same after tonight.
I am ready to tear up my season's tickets, my wife season's season tickets and our Grey Cup tickets and throw them in Skulsky's face. Too much energy wasted on guaranteeing wins and other such nonsense.



That is what everyone should do , but not in skulskys face but Braily maybe he will realize I have to gut this team from top to bottom t like the canucks did this year WHAT A MESS the lions are done .
What the Lions don't realize is that it isn't the ST holder that would shove the ST package in Braley's face, but the ST holder that doesn't say anything when he doesn't renew. The adage of the opposite of Love isn't Hate, but rather apathy has to be applied here, that should speak volumes to the owner.
Entertainment value = an all time low
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David
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But "apathy" does not characterize this marketplace (currently anyway). TV ratings are still very high and the post-game phone board on TSN1040 for the past 2 games (both away games so we're not talking about fans calling in on their way home from the game) was the most robust I can remember in years. There were some very passionate rants from Lions fans about the state of the football club.


DH :cool:
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Rammer
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David wrote:But "apathy" does not characterize this marketplace (currently anyway). TV ratings are still very high and the post-game phone board on TSN1040 for the past 2 games (both away games so we're not talking about fans calling in on their way home from the game) was the most robust I can remember in years. There were some very passionate rants from Lions fans about the state of the football club.


DH :cool:
Apathy will get applied to the ticket purchases, just look at what diehard fans on here are saying, can you imagine the casual fans response to the Lions current offensive display? Phone boards are always busier after a loss, even a third loss in a row. The apathy is a short road from that phone board IMO. When callers are questioning the use of three "I" OL, to use an extra "I" for the 5th receiver spot, you know that the Lions are in trouble and apathy is on its way. :)

Think about the last two defeats, both were at the hands of teams not able to score a TD. The Lions lack of offense will push many that now buy ST's to watch the games from home. While those numbers are impressive, they don't pay the bills in the CFL.
Entertainment value = an all time low
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smphantom
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CardiacKid wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:I wrote Skulsky about my frustration after the Ottawa game. Asked him to give me reasons why I should renew my season tickets. His response was to keep the faith and that "we will be all right" I wonder if he still feels the same after tonight.
I am ready to tear up my season's tickets, my wife season's season tickets and our Grey Cup tickets and throw them in Skulsky's face. Too much energy wasted on guaranteeing wins and other such nonsense.
I don't think I will be renewing my 2 Season Tickets next year! I would rather watch High School AAA football than the crap I've seen from the Lions this season!
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JohnHenry
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I've got to agree the offence is just spinning its wheels. The biggest problem over the past couple seasons is the inadequate pass blocking, often by the RB's who won't, or can't, execute their blocking assignments (although Antolin did a good job last night). Also the FB play must be questioned...with tacklers on the RB's as soon as they touch the ball...with generally poor pass and run blocking overall. Much of the problem is just a lack of commitment by the players to know the plays, know the rules and execute it on the field. The coaches seem lackadaisical too. They might work long hours but are they communicating with the players? I'd say these players need an attitudinal adjustment in the worst way after 3 straight losses. Firing the OC is a start. Have Glenn call his own plays, like Flutie used to do, might just be the answer. After 15 years in the league K.G. probably know these plays in his sleep (just like the opposing defensive co-ord's :wink: ).
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pennw
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Firing the OC is pointless unless the O-line coach is not replaced first .
But I have to agree with Johnhenry on the point that some of the other players besides the O-linemen are not doing any adequate blocking either on run plays or pass plays . You watch any other team and you see receivers and running backs make great blocks to spring their teammates to get first downs or more . That almost never happens with our offense . We rarely see our guys get a short pass and make the first down if assistance with blocking is required from one of the other guys .You watch the Stamps or Riders , they do it all the time and get the Yak . Why don't we ? Usually there is a lack of effort plus almost never enough secondary players in the area to block the tacklers .
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DanoT
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The Lions O is such a boring snooze fest that I prefer to watch them on TV and fall asleep on my couch at home rather than spending 3 hours sitting on my hands at BC Place.
Blitz
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JohnHenry wrote:I've got to agree the offence is just spinning its wheels. The biggest problem over the past couple seasons is the inadequate pass blocking, often by the RB's who won't, or can't, execute their blocking assignments (although Antolin did a good job last night). Also the FB play must be questioned...with tacklers on the RB's as soon as they touch the ball...with generally poor pass and run blocking overall. Much of the problem is just a lack of commitment by the players to know the plays, know the rules and execute it on the field. The coaches seem lackadaisical too. They might work long hours but are they communicating with the players? I'd say these players need an attitudinal adjustment in the worst way after 3 straight losses. Firing the OC is a start. Have Glenn call his own plays, like Flutie used to do, might just be the answer. After 15 years in the league K.G. probably know these plays in his sleep (just like the opposing defensive co-ord's :wink: ).
ANYTHING is better than what is happening now.

When looking at the Khari Jones situation I tend to look at the bigger picture first, going right back to Buono in Calgary. Buono's had John Hufnagel as his offensive coordinator and he was loved in Calgary. There was a time there, if Hufnagel wanted the HC job in Calgary they would have moved Wally out to pave the way for Hufnagel but Hufnagel was loyal.

Hufnagel introduced the spread offence in Calgary. It was a comprehensive, volume play book and it was very innovative during its time in Calgary under Hufnagel. When Hufnagel left Buono gave Cortez the keys to the offence, with the direction that he wanted the spread offence continued. Chap learned the spread offence from Cortez. Wally brought Chapdelaine to B.C. as a receivers coach and got rid of Burratto and gave the offence to Chap, because he wanted that same spread offence run here in B.C.

The spread offence was not only what Chap had been indoctrinated into as a professional coach but it was also the only offence Wally wanted to be implemented. Chap gave us the spread in 2005, won a Grey Cup with it in 2006, went to Edmonton for a season, was hired back at the urging of our receivers at the time, took over as offensive coordinator again in 2009 and continued the spread offence until Game 7 of 2011.

At that point Chap moved away from the spread. I have no idea whether it was because he sensed he was going to be fired or Wally allowed him to run something different or Chap just did. The key was that our offence changed and dramatically for the next two seasons. We went to a lot more power formations, a lot of misdirection play action, a lot of semi-boots and rollouts, short and wide bunch formations, and a lot of different running plays. Chap started to sneak more spread offence back in during the 2013 season after we struggled to open holes for Harris but came back to power formations and even more motion and misdirection to end the 2013 season successfully. We ran the football for over 200 yards per game those last 3 games and our offence looked dangerous again.

Chap left at the end of 2013. A lot of people believe Chap was fired. I don't. He left. He resigned. Whether Buono or Benevedes would have let him go is another question but they had no one in place at the time. It was written up as a mutual decision and also written as Chap was let go due to the potential impact on fan attendance. Chap had endured the criticism and the lack of job security each season but Wally saying that he would 'mentor' Chap in a previous season and publically criticizing him in 2013 were not received well from what I have come to understand. Chap had left once before, after the 2006 Grey Cup winning season, not only because the Edmonton job offered more promise but also because he knew that Benevedes, a special team coach at the time, was the heir apparent to Wally and he would never get a shot at it.

But one thing that I knew was that the next offensive coordinator would be running the old Calgary spread offence which was long past its due date. The only exception to the spread offence being the flavor of the club was in 2007, when Hufnagel, as a consultant, pushed for a more run oriented approach.

Khari Jones was also a spread offensive coach. He played in the spread as a quarterback and he ran the spread offence in Hamilton. Khari Jones has been using a very restricted spread offence. He doesn't use the variety of plays that Chap used. He re-introduced the old six receiver, empty backfield set that Hufnagel and Cortez had used in Calgary and that Chap had used in his early days in B.C.

Almost all the plays we run this season come out of that play book. We just run very few of them. We have the inside zone read run, which we use almost exclusively, other than the fly sweep. Its what's not being used that is the question mark. The shovel pass, direct snap to the tailback, the pitch toss, the shovel pass, and the draw play seem to have almost been eliminated. The tight bunch and the wide bunch are almost gone. The heavy use of motion has been greatly reduced. Play action is rare and misdirection play action even more rare.

What I don't know is who is responsible for this offensive direction. I don't know if Khari Jones is being directed to run our offence with this limited set of plays or not. Last season it was said that Chap's offence was too complicated and perhaps the direction to limit the plays in this offence is a direction from above, from Benevedes or Wally or both. We don't know if Jones was able to hire his own recievers coach or whether PaoPow was hired by Benevedes or Wally. We do know that Jones inherited Dorazio and he has as much ability to change his offensive line coach as Chap did, which is zero, no matter how many brick walls our tailbacks hit or how little pass protection he provides.

If Jones had carte blanche to run this offence as he desired and this was the result he should be gone. So should PaoPao. Dorazio's record does not inspire confidence. We've not only given up the most sacks in the past 10 seasons, suffered the most serious quarterback injuries, but we've also had many stretches where there are no holes to run to. We gave up the most sacks in the CFL in our 2006 Grey Cup winning season. In 2010 we gave up the most sacks in the CFL and were giving up the most sacks in the CFL in the first 7 games of 2011, until Chap changed the offence to more power formations and rollouts to protect the quarterback as well as to run the football. So going back to the spread offence this season, with no ability to run the football out of the spread or protect the quarterback, with Dorazio at the helm of the offensive line, was only going to be a disaster.

It is a disaster. My big questions are 1) Does Jones have the ability to run a different offensive system as Chap eventually did and more importantly 2) Would he be allowed to do so, if he did have that ability.

I don't think we have all the information. Jones is wearing most of it, as Chap did before him. I think our biggest problem is our offensive line coaching. I also think the spread offence is well past its best before due date. Its ok as a formation at times but not as an offensive philosophy and structure any more.

It can still work with a very good offensive line but it also needs a very good, very smart quarterback, a well-rounded receiving crew and a tailback who can run inside the tackles and bounce it out at times. But mostly it needs good anti-blitz plays to combat the blitz and lots of variety in plays to attempt to compensate for its weaknesses. You just can't keep trying to run between the tackles with the same run play or use a restricted number of pass plays that teams can scout easily. The spread is a disaster is an offence can't pass block against inside penetration, which we can't.

Hamilton ran a ton of different plays at our defense. Our offence, outside of one play called off the back shelf, did not. We have been very vanilla all season. We were vanilla on offence when Lulay played Ottawa, when his best strength is misdirection play action.

One thing is for sure. If Benevdes wanted Jones to open up the offence, to run a wider variety of run and pass plays, all he would have to do is give Khari Jones that direction. The problems that ail our offence are more than about Khari Jones. However, his play calling is part of the problem. Its not easy to be an offensive coordinator with poor offensive line blocking. We have the talent on the offensive line to do a much better job. With poor line blocking, an offence simply cannot exectute the spread offensive system successfully.

While I think we should be moving away from the spread offence, as Chap did in 2011, the reality is that our offensive scheme has to utilize more power formations to make up for our offensive line. Even that doesn't always work. We couldn't open holes for Harris last season for too many games, even when utilizing power formations but power formations are at least a better option than the spread.

One thing I certainly hope will not happen this time is that all of it will be blamed on Jones, as it was on Chap last season. Lessons hopefully have been learned. This is much more than just an offensive coordinator problem.
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The problem with a tread such as this one is that while it amy allow for some fan-venting, it doesn't really provide much of a direction ahead. So the Lions fire the OC and maybe the OL coach and receiver coach.... so what.... then you have to replace them with... who??? Yes, Bates might be a replacement OL coach, he seems to recognize young talent and I've not heard complaints about him not being a team player. But then who else?? The names I see here are names that we know, but are, IMHO, NOT the answer, just familiar.

When I look around at the bright, inventive new head coaches that Wally did not even look at (and they are the ones being sucessfull now), they were the unknowns...people who came up here in junior roles (receivers and special team coaches) and then took on a little more and developed into Coordinators and then HC. We should be looking in the US college ranks for bright, new and inventive coaches that can be brought up as Training Camp Coaches or to fill the junior position coaches. And developing them to become the next wave of cordinators and HC. We have been able to find young talent in the players ranks, lets get on with looking and evaluating some young talented coaches.....

I would be much more inclined to renew my seson ticket if I thought that this old-boys club was going to change..... Cripes, this is looking like a return to the days of Adam Rita and Bob OB.......
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Rammer wrote:
David wrote:But "apathy" does not characterize this marketplace (currently anyway). TV ratings are still very high and the post-game phone board on TSN1040 for the past 2 games (both away games so we're not talking about fans calling in on their way home from the game) was the most robust I can remember in years. There were some very passionate rants from Lions fans about the state of the football club.


DH :cool:
Apathy will get applied to the ticket purchases, just look at what diehard fans on here are saying, can you imagine the casual fans response to the Lions current offensive display? Phone boards are always busier after a loss, even a third loss in a row. The apathy is a short road from that phone board IMO. When callers are questioning the use of three "I" OL, to use an extra "I" for the 5th receiver spot, you know that the Lions are in trouble and apathy is on its way. :)

Think about the last two defeats, both were at the hands of teams not able to score a TD. The Lions lack of offense will push many that now buy ST's to watch the games from home. While those numbers are impressive, they don't pay the bills in the CFL.
Where the Lions better be very concerned is this a new era for the CFL on TV to overcome the building apathy.
Season ticket holders can say why bother forking over $260-600 for season tickets to watch a too often bad product when they know for certain there is no blackout rule anymore and all 18 games are televised on HD TV. They can still follow the team intently and not spend a dime on tickets.
TheLionKing
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It is worthwhile to note that a lot of the postings on this forum is fan conjecture, speculation. For example, Wally did not look around before anointing Benevides as his successor. We really don't know that for a fact....perhaps he did.....or not. It seems that if something is repeated again and again it takes on a life of it's own.
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