Ticket Prices / Lions' Marketing

[TheLionKing]

Interesting article. Can't believe Braley warned Skulsky the Sunday and holiday Monday games wouldn't work and that B.C. is a Friday or Saturday football town. So he allows Skulsky to go through with it just to prove his point and loses potential revenue because of it. How many owners would do that?

David's right. The Lions currently have a pretty loyal season ticket base that ranges between 17,000-20,000 fans depending on the previous year performance and on field product. These people not only purchase tickets but, for the most part, also spend a lot of money on Lions gear and other club revenue opportunities such as Operation Orange. After that they are kind of lost on how to make it more attractive for the casual fan and that resulted in attendance ranging between 24,000 to 37,000 last season. It seems like as long as their in the black each season, they are content with their marketing efforts — even though they lean heavily on that loyal season ticket base to realize their financial goal.
It's going to take different ownership seeking additional revenue before we see some fresh ideas. I suspect that will be sometime in early 2015 with next year's Grey Cup being Braley's official send off.

They're actually lucky soccer has never really taken off in this town, despite the Whitecaps marketing efforts, the way it has in Seattle.

Lions need to expand their fan base. You can't rely on season ticket holders forever.

[Big Time]

I was once again disappointed by what I read about Skulsky's comments today. Once again, it is clear they BC Lions do have a proper grasp of marketing. Whether this is because of Skulsky or Braley, I'm not sure. However here are my observations.

First off, the Lions have 17 - 20K season ticket holders. This number by itself is actually pretty strong. What should be of concern however is the demographics of this fan base. By and large, it appears that most Lions season tickets holders are in the 35 years and older crowd. In other words, these are long time fans who have money and are willing to spend it. These people aren't your problem as they are loyal, and they will mostly be back.

The problem is that they are doing NOTHING to cultivate the younger generation of fans, that will hopefully become their FUTURE season ticket holders. This is a massive problem that they have no plans to address. Let me give you an example. I first started following this team for real around 1988. I was 13 at the time and really got into sports. Not too long after I started following the Lions, they got Doug Flutie, the team became exciting, and I wanted to be a part of it. During that time, you could always get a couple of endzone tickets at 7-11 for $20 each. Not a lot of money and easy enough for a teenager to afford. The seats were terrible, but they got you in the building, and being in the building was how memories were made. I went to 3-5 games per year throughout the 90's. I only became a season ticket holder about 10 years ago, however my support for the team was cultivated through CHEAP access to watching games live.

Fast forward to today. Not only are cheap tickets not the norm, but today they announced a 2% increase in ticket prices, plus an increase in "building fees". Again, this is not likely to affect season ticket holders like me because I'm a lifelong fan, I make money for a living, and I'm passionate. However they still are doing nothing to cultivate the younger generation. Want to buy a ticket at walk up? Cheapest ticket was $35 not including building fees. I continue to be astounded by the cost of upper deck tickets. They are way out of line with reality. Even with 2 for 1 tickets, you get slapped with extra fees. Last season I took my son (7 years old and a member of the future fan generation), and my father-in-law to a game. With a 2 for 1, I still paid $51 for upper level tickets in the end zone ($35 plus $8 building fee per ticket).

You want a casual, young, fan to walk up and pay for a ticket at these prices? FORGET IT. They'll just go home and watch it in HD on TSN, if they watch it at all.

Here is the reality. The Lions don't actually care about how many people are in the building. They care about how many people pay to be in the building. That is a huge difference. I don't begrudge them entirely for this. They are running a business and you don't give the product away for free. They know there are always people like me who will pay full price because we support the Lions. I'm also passed the point in my life where I want to sit in the end zone of the upper deck. I can afford better, and I choose to do so.

However if they really want to solidify their FUTURE fan base, the ones that will be there after I decide to no longer go, they need to lay the foundation through easier access now. This means providing cheaper tickets to get people in the building so they can start building memories that will encourage them to pay in the future when they are able. There is no reason why end zone seats in the upper decks shouldn't be $20 flat. Hell, upper deck tickets except for those beween the 25 yards lines should be capped at $30. They could do promotions with 7-11, Safeway, etc to sell two tickets for $40 total. They could lower the price of some of their merchandise to get the fans wearing their colours. They could be more active on social media, offer more promotions, and encourage people to become part of the community.

These are all aspects that the Whitecaps have done an excellent job of. You can go to the soccer games, it's cheap (around $20), the fans are into it, and if you like soccer, the entertainment is reasonable.

They argue that they don't want to tick off the full fee paying customer by giving too many discounts. The reality is that while you have to take care of your customers, you also need to grow your fan base for the future. You don't do that by locking them out of the building. When I look back on the 80's and 90's, I don't remember how much I spent on tickets. I remember Doug Flutie, I remember Lui Passaglia in 1994, I remember great moments. Those memories wouldn't have meant as much if I hadn't been there in person.

Until the Lions wake up to the reality of today's market place, they are going to continue to struggle to increase their fan base. They may have a few more full fee paying fans today, but it will be at the expense of full fee paying fans in the future.

[Lions4ever]

Big Time: Good rant.

[TheLionKing]

Well said Big Time

[Toppy Vann]

The CFL to marketing is what the horse is to the buggy.

The irony is that fans keep fueling this trend to max. rev. per seat by pushing how great the Whitecaps do it. While the WC apparently want to push their season tckt sales and come playoffs if I read this right and you want to buy a ticket you may be out of luck as they won't expand seating. I am pretty sure I read this right.

Skulsky has touted high incomes for their fan base - surprised me as I can't think of that many fans earning what their survey said - in 90K range IIRC.

The CFL needs to grow the fan base in major cities into the changing diversity of the ethnic make up of Canada.

Lions have so many people living downtown they could market those too. Walk to the game.

[B.C.FAN]

Let me play devil's advocate. I'm a loyal season ticket holder and member of the older, more affluent generation. I have a hard time relating to the affordability argument. I share my tickets to every game with my adult kids, my grandkids and younger relatives and friends, and I share corporate tickets the same way when I have them. I got my first season tickets with my dad in the 1960s and kept them for myself when he died a couple years later. I'm sure many other season ticket holders take their kids to games and share their 2-for-1 coupons and other perks. A lot of young people get exposed to the game without having to pay for their own tickets. The family section introduced this year will hopefully be brought back so more kids can attend games with their parents.

If the Lions risk losing a generation of fans unless they make tickets affordable to teenagers, what about the Canucks? Their tickets are much pricier and harder to get. I don't follow them closely but I haven't heard the same concern about losing a generation of young hockey fans. The arguments around the Lions always stem from the excess capacity at B.C. Place, and a perceived need to fill more seats at any price. The Lions and Whitecaps have used different means but they've chosen to ignore that extra capacity and to focus on maximizing revenue. I'd love to see more people in the stands, and I agree with those who say it makes for a much better atmosphere in the stadium and on TV but I can't say the Lions are wrong by protecting the value of their product. My seats cost $26.50 per game, plus fees. It's a pretty good deal.

[Toppy Vann]

I think the Canucks are a bit different as they have over 40 home dates and it's more a corporate crowd or fans sharing packs and top teams with their friends.

[JohnHenry]

The Lions should bring back $20 tickets when they bring back $10 parking. There is no way a ticket to an event should cost less than it costs to park your car. My first season's tickets at B.C. Place were $7 per game (with no additional taxes or fees). I had Canucks tickets at the time which cost about the same. The Lions somehow sold 59,000 tickets without a $6 Ticketmaster or facility fee. But I don't think we can we roll back the clock to the good 'ole days. Perhaps a $40 ticket today is equivalent to the $7 ticket back then?

I agree with the Lions policy of not discounting tickets or doing contra deals (giving free tickets to businesses in exchange for services). The Ticats admitted recently that 20% of their tickets "sold", were actually contra deals (with blocks of tickets being dumped on the market, competing with team's own ticket sales), which they wanted to reduce. The Lions have largely eliminated this practice.

It's the same with discounting tickets on the sidelines. The Lions have a core of 20,000 devoted fans. The team doesn't want to annoy the life-blood of their franchise by offering equivalent tickets in the upper deck, for example, for half what season-ticket holders pay. Same as blackouts. It seems dumb to many people but this is more of a tip of the hat to seasons-ticket-holders rather than a way to promote ticket sales (you must buy a ticket to see the game, except HDTV subscribers). Incidentally, the number of blackouts will be reduced with the new TV contract next year.

When I see the Lions' ticket prices today, they seem unbelievable, especially for a league which pays many of its players in the $40k range. But check out other CFL teams and the Lions ticket prices are right in the median. While the Riders can sell $15 tickets and $5.50 beer (while still turning huge profits), as Skulsky says, this is the reality today.

[SammyGreene]

We’ve been working with the Whitecaps and the stadium people for the last month. I take responsibility for the schedule of 2013. It should have been better. I wanted to try a holiday Monday and a Sunday. Credit to my boss. He said ‘I can tell you what’s going to happen but you’re going to have to go through this.’ It’s very clear. Our marketplace is a Saturday marketplace. We got to support the league and TSN with some Friday games but the reality we’re a Friday/Saturday marketplace.

I’m not sure the [stadium] can guarantee a 24-hour turnaround. If they can there’s a significant cost. The direction the Whitecaps and us have decided is that we have one weekend, they can have another weekend. Just keep it clean.

Above is Skulsky from LU's interview regarding the Whitecaps. The MLS released its regular season schedule today (already!!!!) and if there is an agreement between the Whitecaps and Lions it sure looks like we might see a steady dose of back-to-back home games next season if the Lions are sticking with Fridays and Saturdays.

Whitecap weekend home dates include: Sat July 5, Sat July 12, Sun July 27, Sun Aug 10, Sat Aug 30, Sat Sept 6, Sat Sept 27, Sat Oct 4, Sat Oct 25.

If the 24 hour stadium turnaround is nearly impossible or at a significant cost it means the Lions would open with a pair on the road.

[sj-roc]

We’ve been working with the Whitecaps and the stadium people for the last month. I take responsibility for the schedule of 2013. It should have been better. I wanted to try a holiday Monday and a Sunday. Credit to my boss. He said ‘I can tell you what’s going to happen but you’re going to have to go through this.’ It’s very clear. Our marketplace is a Saturday marketplace. We got to support the league and TSN with some Friday games but the reality we’re a Friday/Saturday marketplace.

I’m not sure the [stadium] can guarantee a 24-hour turnaround. If they can there’s a significant cost. The direction the Whitecaps and us have decided is that we have one weekend, they can have another weekend. Just keep it clean.

Above is Skulsky from LU's interview regarding the Whitecaps. The MLS released its regular season schedule today (already!!!!) and if there is an agreement between the Whitecaps and Lions it sure looks like we might see a steady dose of back-to-back home games next season if the Lions are sticking with Fridays and Saturdays.

Whitecap weekend home dates include: Sat July 5, Sat July 12, Sun July 27, Sun Aug 10, Sat Aug 30, Sat Sept 6, Sat Sept 27, Sat Oct 4, Sat Oct 25.

If the 24 hour stadium turnaround is nearly impossible or at a significant cost it means the Lions would open with a pair on the road.

I've had a quick look at the Whitecaps 2014 schedule and the options it leaves us for next year (Caps home dates acc to MLS' published sched are marked in blue below). With nine teams I think we'll see a 20-week schedule with two bye weeks (as was the case in 2005 when Ott was last in the league) so things will likely start a week early and this would allow us to start the season at home on Sat Jun 28, when BCP should be available. There are indeed plenty of Saturdays available but as you say we're looking at a lot of potential back-to-back scenarios that don't help the gate.

I've marked the best Saturday home dates in orange below, except for Aug 2, which will be the last fireworks night (on the BC Day weekend), making Friday the preferred night of this weekend if we play at home. I suppose Fri Aug 8 (but not Aug 9) would also be available to accommodate FNF if need be. Obviously we won't be using them all and we could still see some non-Sat games but hopefully not too many. One of our bye weeks will almost certainly be Wk 10 for Labour Day with Edm/Cgy, Wpg/Ssk, Tor/Ham (barring Argo scheduling woes), Ott/Mtl traditional matchups. Not sure where the other one would go but I'd prefer it be placed to avoid a home back-to-back scenario and not too close to the Wk 10 bye, either.

[SammyGreene]

I've had a quick look at the Whitecaps 2014 schedule and the options it leaves us for next year (Caps home dates acc to MLS' published sched are marked in blue below). With nine teams I think we'll see a 20-week schedule with two bye weeks (as was the case in 2005 when Ott was last in the league) so things will likely start a week early and this would allow us to start the season at home on Sat Jun 28, when BCP should be available. There are indeed plenty of Saturdays available but as you say we're looking at a lot of potential back-to-back scenarios that don't help the gate.

I've marked the best Saturday home dates in orange below, except for Aug 2, which will be the last fireworks night (on the BC Day weekend), making Friday the preferred night of this weekend if we play at home. I suppose Fri Aug 8 (but not Aug 9) would also be available to accommodate FNF if need be. Obviously we won't be using them all and we could still see some non-Sat games but hopefully not too many. One of our bye weeks will almost certainly be Wk 10 for Labour Day with Edm/Cgy, Wpg/Ssk, Tor/Ham (barring Argo scheduling woes), Ott/Mtl traditional matchups. Not sure where the other one would go but I'd prefer it be placed to avoid a home back-to-back scenario and not too close to the Wk 10 bye, either.

Fantastic chart sj-roc That's a helluva lot better than trying to describe all those potential back to back in words. Sure looks like the Whitecaps and Lions agreed to each having plenty of 2 week stretches to themselves. Just not ideal to convince the casual fans to come consecutive weeks.

[sj-roc]

Sure looks like the Whitecaps and Lions agreed to each having plenty of 2 week stretches to themselves. Just not ideal to convince the casual fans to come consecutive weeks.

I agree, Sammy. For all the flak the Lions took this year over the schedule, this was one aspect that I thought was fairly well executed with no back-to-back homers until the last two weeks of the season. It was just bad luck that the standings were already settled by this time, which has been somewhat of a rarity in recent years, as this might have otherwise boosted the gate.

It strikes me as odd that the Caps would want back-to-back games, too, but I have no idea how sensitive their audience is to this sort of scheduling. They have some very non-uniform spacing of games at times. There's one stretch where there's a 3wk gap between home games, then they play another one a week later and yet another one just 3-4 days after this. There's another point early in their season where they go pretty much a full month between home dates. No idea if they wanted it this way or if they got handed a raw deal like us for 2013.

I just started a new thread with an old clip from a 2002 game @BCP. Whatever one thinks of the 2013 sched, 2002 by comparison was downright dreadful with the home opener falling on a Tuesday, followed by another home game just a week later, on a Thursday. Then two more Thu dates two and four weeks later followed by a Wednesday the very next week. The next home game after this was an eternal three weeks later in mid-Sep and fell on a Friday, as did the next two home games two and four weeks later again. Then another three week break before yet another Friday date to close out the season. Absolutely **NO** Sat games at all in 2002. Between this happenstance and the marketplace doldrums of the day we had our all-time 2nd-worst season avg attendance (for BCP) of only 18,507.

[Hambone]

The problem is that they are doing NOTHING to cultivate the younger generation of fans, that will hopefully become their FUTURE season ticket holders. This is a massive problem that they have no plans to address. Let me give you an example. I first started following this team for real around 1988. I was 13 at the time and really got into sports. Not too long after I started following the Lions, they got Doug Flutie, the team became exciting, and I wanted to be a part of it. During that time, you could always get a couple of endzone tickets at 7-11 for $20 each. Not a lot of money and easy enough for a teenager to afford. The seats were terrible, but they got you in the building, and being in the building was how memories were made. I went to 3-5 games per year throughout the 90's. I only became a season ticket holder about 10 years ago, however my support for the team was cultivated through CHEAP access to watching games live..

I gotta take issue with that Big Time as it really is a slap in the face to an organization as involved in the community as the Lions are especially when it comes to schools and youth. You equate the 200+ appearances as "doing NOTHING" and that the only effort by the organization that would be worthy of praise would be to offer cheap seats at 1991 prices? Given minimum wage was half of what it is today and other factors $20 then probably went a lot farther than $40 does today. You might want to check the community link in the Lions website to see all the things they do that apparently equal "doing NOTHING". Here's a few direct links.

http://www.bclions.com/page/school_programs
http://www.bclions.com/page/bemorethanabystander
http://www.bclions.com/page/courage-for-kids
http://www.bclions.com/every_yard_counts

[DanoT]

The first thing that came to mind when viewing the WhiteCaps schedule/Lions potential dates was that they are setting things up to minimize the number of "change overs" and the related costs. So most of the time that they do a "change over" it is good for 2 games.

[SammyGreene]

The first thing that came to mind when viewing the WhiteCaps schedule/Lions potential dates was that they are setting things up to minimize the number of "change overs" and the related costs. So most of the time that they do a "change over" it is good for 2 games.

Good point Danny. Perhaps BC Place made it very clear to both tenants the cost of converting from football to soccer and vice versa is significant. Thanks to sj-roc's chart it sure is shaping up like all six home games in the fall will be back-to-back weeks. Lions will really need to be in the thick of the race for first place to bring back fans consecutive weeks like that.

I'm actually surprised to see the Whitecaps playing so many Saturday games next season. Haven't checked but thought they played on a lot of Sunday afternoons this past season.