Bombers-Lions: The Showdown

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9370
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

Concern that the club didn’t adequately self-scout during the bye week. Same issues re-surfaced although we have improved on penalties, and our return game is better.

But…

Why is Davis continually getting stuffed on 3rd down? Why is Davis still even featured on 3rd and short? He used to occasionally run wide catching defenders (tight in the box) by surprise for big gains. Why was this abandoned?

We’re very susceptible to the run, especially bigger backs (Oliveira, Ouellette, Stanback). Good against smurfs (e.g. Kevin Brown) probably because they go up against Mizzell in practice. We’re quite obviously too light at nose tackle.

We’re also not mounting much of a running attack and a very one-dimensional passing club. Why do we never see Mackie? I would be fine going Mackie/LaFrance and playing the extra import elsewhere. Was scheme not challenged during the bye?

RPO is killing us. Why? The book is that the Leos can defend pretty well deep but give up the underneath passes all night. Someone is always open, like 7/11


DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8216
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

SammyGreene wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:40 am
Now looking at the highlights and Hatcher will have some explaining to do in the film room on how he quit on Rhymes near winning TD instead of blocking Parker from making the game saving tackle. Of course, maybe he thought Rhymes would go down to set up the game winning FG? 😞
#7 (Parker) was coming up fast from behind Rhymes left shoulder. He had been covering a BC receiver over on the far sideline. I think Hatcher was more concerned about the 2 Bombers closest to Rhymes and doubt he could have angled thru that traffic to slow Parker down.

When I look back at the video clip had Rhymes gone down when he first caught the ball it would have made for probably a 52 to 54 yard FG attempt for Whyte which is almost out of his range. When he barely squeaked a 51 yarder over the cross bar in the home opener vs Edmonton I chuckled to my buddy OK coach 51 is max, 52 too long. That remains his season long. Sure enough later in the game he tried a 52 yarder and it came up short. He's only missed 3 this year. The other 2 were from 49 and 50. All were at BC Place. There of course is always a chance with a guy like Whyte but he would have needed his best kick of the year. The other chance he had was to go down after the contact by #17. It may have taken a command centre review to determine if there was still a tick left on the clock.

EDIT: after checking out the rule book the QB, punter or kicker CAN give themselves up to make the ball dead. For any other ball carrier if he simply goes down an official has to determine that he's no longer trying to advance the football before play can be whistled dead. I think by the time an official made that determination it would be too late. If the Bomber players were smart if he went down without contact they wouldn't touch him and the clock would still run out.
Last edited by Hambone on Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
B.C.FAN
Team Captain
Posts: 12591
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:28 pm

I watched Whyte in warmups. His longest attempt was 52 yards and I believe it fell just under the crossbar. He hit everything inside that range.
Walt67
Starter
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:41 am

Hambone wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:40 pm
SammyGreene wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:40 am
Now looking at the highlights and Hatcher will have some explaining to do in the film room on how he quit on Rhymes near winning TD instead of blocking Parker from making the game saving tackle. Of course, maybe he thought Rhymes would go down to set up the game winning FG? 😞
#7 (Parker) was coming up fast from behind Rhymes left shoulder. He had been covering a BC receiver over on the far sideline. I think Hatcher was more concerned about the 2 Bombers closest to Rhymes and doubt he could have angled thru that traffic to slow Parker down.

When I look back at the video clip had Rhymes gone down when he first caught the ball it would have made for probably a 52 to 54 yard FG attempt for Whyte which is almost out of his range. When he barely squeaked a 51 yarder over the cross bar in the home opener vs Edmonton I chuckled to my buddy OK coach 51 is max, 52 too long. That remains his season long. Sure enough later in the game he tried a 52 yarder and it came up short. He's only missed 3 this year. The other 2 were from 49 and 50. All were at BC Place. There of course is always a chance with a guy like Whyte but he would have needed his best kick of the year. The other chance he had was to go down after the contact by #17. It may have taken a command centre review to determine if there was still a tick left on the clock.

EDIT: after checking out the rule book the QB, punter or kicker CAN give themselves up to make the ball dead. For any other ball carrier if he simply goes down an official has to determine that he's no longer trying to advance the football before play can be whistled dead. I think by the time an official made that determination it would be too late. If the Bomber players were smart if he went down without contact they wouldn't touch him and the clock would still run out.
Yes - to be fair (can you imagine being "fair" on a fan forum?!?) it is easy to criticize Rhymes for not trying to go down and stop the clock - but given the average length of a pass and run PLUS the extra time for the official to decide he was actually down and blow play dead, there is no guarantee that time wouldn't have expired anyway. Can you imagine if Rhymes had gone down and a zebra waited "a steamboat too long" what would have happened?!?
User avatar
B.C.FAN
Team Captain
Posts: 12591
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:28 pm

J.J. Adams quotes Rhymes explaining his thought process. He took responsibility for the gaffe but he thought he had a clear path to the end zone and he didn't sense Parker gaining on him.
Dominque Rhymes turned the corner, with Bombers defensive back Evan Holm grasping at air in his wake. He side-stepped Redha Kramdi, leaving him on the B.C. Place turf, looked up, and saw only open green and glory.

The Lions were split seconds and 25 yards from seeing their No. 1 receiver break into the end zone for one of the most remarkable finishes in team history. He could see it. He didn’t see Winnipeg’s Jamal Parker, who dragged him down from behind. It was a 65-yard reception. It needed to be either 70 yards and paydirt, or 50, with Rhymes going down to preserve the scant seconds on the clock or even pooch kick the ball out the back of the end zone for a rouge.

The play started with eight seconds left, and he caught it with four. The instructions had been given, but instinct took over.

“I probably should have gotten down, but I felt I could get in the end zone. I though it would be an easy touchdown after I made the catch,” a subdued Rhymes said post-game.

“I gotta be better. I gotta be better for the team. Put that one on me. I gotta be a better player, be more aware.

“It’s a learning experience. It’ll make you a better player. It’s the small details, in big games like this that matter.”

While Rhymes held his head in disbelief on the five yard line, Adams was pounding the ground 70 yards away. He couldn’t believe it.

The receiver said he knew the time situation and what was instructed, but when the first two defenders missed, thought he had the touchdown in the bag.

“That’s just a football player trying to make a play,” said Campbell. “Everyone knew what the clock situation was. It’s just too bad that he didn’t quite get there.”

Article content
“He wasn’t too happy with himself,” added quarterback Vernon Adams Jr. “We just got to love on each other, be there for each other and pick each other up man.

“We didn’t lose game because of that play. It was a just a lot more. … We can’t give up a 10-point lead like that. We’ve got to be better as an offence. We can’t point any fingers at anyone. We just got to be here for one another and come back to work.”
Blue Bombers 34, Lions 26: Leos lose in the most painful of ways
User avatar
aklawitter
All Star
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:14 pm

The Bombers inexplicably don't have ANYBODY more than 24 yards off the LOS when Rhymes catches the ball.

Rhymes gets contacted at the 33, this is exactly when Hatcher turns his head presumably to check the time. At this point even the other Bombers had let up, expecting the tackle to be made. Rhymes looked back towards Parker at this point as well. If Rhymes goes down with this contact, he likely would have been down at the 29 yard line, making for a 36 or so yard field goal with at least 1 second left on the clock. Exactly 7 seconds elapses from the exact moment of the snap to when he breaks this tackle.

brain fart moment. coulda woulda shoulda
User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9370
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

Was no one motioning on the sidelines to GO DOWN!? The play took place on the Lions' side of the field after all. Hell, if I were Campbell, I would be falling to the ground to show him! The whole building could see that he wouldn't make it to the endzone without being tackled given there were only 8 seconds on the clock when the play started.

Oh well, all is not lost. They can still come up with a sound four-quarter game plan in Winnipeg. They are going to have to do something to disrupt Collaros' rhythm and obviously slow down Oliveira. Not completely sold on Winnipeg's defensive backfield (although they were missing Houston. Winston Rose isn't the impact player he was). Despite Bighill chasing down VA to the sideline (where we got screwed on the spot), he is old and slow.

Further, we end the season on a bye. Would it have been a good idea to have three weeks off if we took first in the West?



DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9794
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

Like David, it's concerning that the Lions didn't sell out. I can't grasp how S 204 was looking mostly sold BEFORE the Riders Game.

I've yet to go back to see if Hatcher could be blamed for not blocking on that play but I still think Rhymes did the right thing except maybe looking back versus just running for the end zone. Players get into their cheering phase these days and become a cheering party far too often before the play is over.

A lot of the Lions problems issues are systemic in the lack of a running game that led to the result, along with horrible tackling on the OT TD.

I heard I think Dave Naylor say that you can't pick a running back usually for MOP as it all depends on systems or something like. Yah right our system sucks.

As a team leader he's a bit too emotional for my liking but he's sure better now than in Montreal days but he's right to look at it this way:
Article content
“He wasn’t too happy with himself,” added quarterback Vernon Adams Jr. “We just got to love on each other, be there for each other and pick each other up man.

“We didn’t lose game because of that play. It was a just a lot more. … We can’t give up a 10-point lead like that. We’ve got to be better as an offence. We can’t point any fingers at anyone. We just got to be here for one another and come back to work.”
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8216
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

aklawitter wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:43 am
The Bombers inexplicably don't have ANYBODY more than 24 yards off the LOS when Rhymes catches the ball.

Rhymes gets contacted at the 33, this is exactly when Hatcher turns his head presumably to check the time. At this point even the other Bombers had let up, expecting the tackle to be made. Rhymes looked back towards Parker at this point as well. If Rhymes goes down with this contact, he likely would have been down at the 29 yard line, making for a 36 or so yard field goal with at least 1 second left on the clock. Exactly 7 seconds elapses from the exact moment of the snap to when he breaks this tackle.

brain fart moment. coulda woulda shoulda
Woulda, coulda, shoulda sums it up. Apparently in the roughly 5 seconds Rhymes had from the time the ball touched his hands until the clock hit zero he had time to think about kicking the ball into or through the end zone, consider going down either by contact/in hopes a Bomber would touch him to end the play or cast a gaze to the sidelines for instruction on what he should do. All this while running as fast as he can while looking at the goal line and the end zone game clock with one eye and with the other trying to check his rear view mirrors to see who was chasing him and from where.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
Coast Mountain Lion
Legend
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: Champlain Heights

Toppy Vann wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:57 am


I heard I think Dave Naylor say that you can't pick a running back usually for MOP as it all depends on systems or something like. Yah right our system sucks.
Jon Cornish, Mike Pringle, Mike Clemons, WIllard Reaves, David Green, Jimmy Edwards, Willie Burden, Bill Symons, George Reed, George Dixon...
User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9370
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

Since all signs point toward this "Gravy Bowl" now becoming a B.C. vs Winnipeg annual event at B.C. Place, I am wondering if the club should consider putting this game on a specific day on the Thanksgiving Day long weekend.

My preference would be to play it here at 4:00pm or 5:00pm on Sunday. Friday night at 7:00pm is just not an effective day. But Sunday will remind some fans of the 1980s glory years of the Lions/Bombers playoff rivalry. Nothing else really to compete with (other than hardcore NFLers devoting the entire day to it).

I realize TSN will have some say in this and it may interfere with their NFL feed for the Sunday nighter. But with no work the next day for many, families can come out and really make this a big event. Winnipeggers can travel out here and attend it more easily than Friday (there were probably 1,500-2000 Bomber fans in attendance. Some that I know of flew out from Winnipeg).


DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
Walt67
Starter
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:41 am

David wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:10 pm
Since all signs point toward this "Gravy Bowl" now becoming a B.C. vs Winnipeg annual event at B.C. Place, I am wondering if the club should consider putting this game on a specific day on the Thanksgiving Day long weekend.

My preference would be to play it here at 4:00pm or 5:00pm on Sunday. Friday night at 7:00pm is just not an effective day. But Sunday will remind some fans of the 1980s glory years of the Lions/Bombers playoff rivalry. Nothing else really to compete with (other than hardcore NFLers devoting the entire day to it).

I realize TSN will have some say in this and it may interfere with their NFL feed for the Sunday nighter. But with no work the next day for many, families can come out and really make this a big event. Winnipeggers can travel out here and attend it more easily than Friday (there were probably 1,500-2000 Bomber fans in attendance. Some that I know of flew out from Winnipeg).


DH :cool:
In a purrfect world the idea of a Sunday Thanksgiving game could turn into a fine holiday tradition - especially as the Lions always get the bye for all the Labour Day Classics. But once the NFL season gets going you can see TSN and the schedule makers largely yield Sundays to the NFL-watching crowd.
User avatar
B.C.FAN
Team Captain
Posts: 12591
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:28 pm

I don’t think a Sunday game during Thanksgiving weekend is practical. That’s when most families celebrate the holiday with a big dinner. I hate Friday night games but I made this one work as part of a family weekend. Monday at 4 p.m. is about the only other time I could attend.
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8216
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

Walt67 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:59 pm
David wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:10 pm
Since all signs point toward this "Gravy Bowl" now becoming a B.C. vs Winnipeg annual event at B.C. Place, I am wondering if the club should consider putting this game on a specific day on the Thanksgiving Day long weekend.

My preference would be to play it here at 4:00pm or 5:00pm on Sunday. Friday night at 7:00pm is just not an effective day. But Sunday will remind some fans of the 1980s glory years of the Lions/Bombers playoff rivalry. Nothing else really to compete with (other than hardcore NFLers devoting the entire day to it).

I realize TSN will have some say in this and it may interfere with their NFL feed for the Sunday nighter. But with no work the next day for many, families can come out and really make this a big event. Winnipeggers can travel out here and attend it more easily than Friday (there were probably 1,500-2000 Bomber fans in attendance. Some that I know of flew out from Winnipeg).


DH :cool:
In a purrfect world the idea of a Sunday Thanksgiving game could turn into a fine holiday tradition - especially as the Lions always get the bye for all the Labour Day Classics. But once the NFL season gets going you can see TSN and the schedule makers largely yield Sundays to the NFL-watching crowd.
The schedule is very much a joint CFL/TSN effort. Neither one has any interest in pitting a CFL game up against the NFL juggenaut these days. The last post-Labour Day CFL Sunday regular season tilt came in 2018 and there was only one. This year they've taken the next step and are moving the divisional playoff games back to Saturday.

I'm guessing what TSN pays for NFL SNF rights is fairly significant. To pit a CFL game on a Sunday night against their SNF broadcast would be a case of shooting themselves in both feet with a .44 magnum. All they'd be doing is competing against themselves and undercutting the viewership for both games with the CFL game likely taking the brunt of it given the popularity of SNF. Last Sunday night's SNF game drew just over 1M viewers on TSN including 425K in the 25-54 demographic. The Argo/Bomber game was CFL tops last weekend with 553K going head to head against the Jays 1.24M followed up same night by Riders/Lions at 495K. The Jays game was over by the time the 2nd game of the FNF double header kicked off.

Sunday on a long weekend certainly helps out of town folks in attending. I used to look at Thanksgiving as a prefered weekend in large part in hopes the Canucks or maybe even the Seahawks might also have a game to double up with a Lions home game. However it's a double-edged sword. There's a ton of folks in the lower mainland who also look at long weekends as an ideal opportunity to head out of town and Thanksgiving is the last true long weekend before Christmas. Thanksgiving turkey dinners are not a big deal to me. I can't remember the last time I was involved in one; 20 or 30 years ago I guess. However I'm in agreement with BCF's comment about Sunday being the prefered night for those big family Thanksgiving get togethers. Some go with Saturday and some with Monday but most folks I hear talking about their dinners have them Sunday.

The Gravy Bowl thing is a nice marketing ploy but it doesn't need to be Winnipeg every year. It could be anybody. The last time Winnipeg played at BC Place on Thanksgiving weekend was on the Saturday back in 2015. They played in Winnipeg in 2016 then hosted Ottawa and Toronto respectively in 2017 & 2018, both 4:00pm starts. 2019 was in Edmonton. 2021 was a bye for BC and 2022 saw BC in Toronto. Coming purely from a league scheduling perspective I don't think it's the best idea to try making it a Winnipeg @ BC game every year because that would etch 3 Bomber games in stone over a 6 week period. It's tough enough assembling a schedule with bye weeks and some teams sharing stadiums with other events/teams. The more games that get locked in like that the more difficult it is to put together the rest of the docket.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9794
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

Hambone wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:01 pm
aklawitter wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:43 am
The Bombers inexplicably don't have ANYBODY more than 24 yards off the LOS when Rhymes catches the ball.

Rhymes gets contacted at the 33, this is exactly when Hatcher turns his head presumably to check the time. At this point even the other Bombers had let up, expecting the tackle to be made. Rhymes looked back towards Parker at this point as well. If Rhymes goes down with this contact, he likely would have been down at the 29 yard line, making for a 36 or so yard field goal with at least 1 second left on the clock. Exactly 7 seconds elapses from the exact moment of the snap to when he breaks this tackle.

brain fart moment. coulda woulda shoulda
Woulda, coulda, shoulda sums it up. Apparently in the roughly 5 seconds Rhymes had from the time the ball touched his hands until the clock hit zero he had time to think about kicking the ball into or through the end zone, consider going down either by contact/in hopes a Bomber would touch him to end the play or cast a gaze to the sidelines for instruction on what he should do. All this while running as fast as he can while looking at the goal line and the end zone game clock with one eye and with the other trying to check his rear view mirrors to see who was chasing him and from where.
I've made a similar case given how Rhymes had to get the ball firmly in grip and that took time and then turn to see if he can make it which seemed a sure thing.
Eliminating the need for a decision would be clear instruction in the huddle to get down also or at the bench when you're coming on as an Offence.

I'M CONFUSING RHYMES HERE WITH THE FUMBLE RECOVER BY SIANE TEUHEMA SO INSERT RHYMES IN THE NEXT SENTENCE!
Also, SIANE TEUHEMA had two players with him that if the outside player had made a first block on the man closest to him it might have left the field side guy able to cut off the tackle that came from the field side. It's happening fast but players can be coached in drills to look for these opportunities.

These accompanying parties have to understand three things:
1. No penalties look to block BUT don't if it's not easily a legal block
2. Like in soccer give warnings when there's a tracker
3. No celebrations - it ain't over till it's over! (as a coach, I'd use that Yogi line as it's silly and players remember this stuff).

It wasn't the case here but you see players doing this stuff all time and clearly it's not being instilled in them that's it's the details.

You can coach for special situations with time running out. Narrows the player's decision-making.

Pass and Punt:

You can practice the pass and punt or the punting rule that Montreal pulled off despite not punting to the 1st down marker.
Def who get a fumble or INT and Off players can practice the punt and others getting under it or on it in the end zone in drills with no defenders.
Set up a Rhymes scenario the guy with the ball followed by two players who practice getting under kick if short and in the air or recovering it.

Last Play Kick Return:

Do it like pro soccer teams do it with shadow attack bringing the ball up from the goal where you have a skeleton "defence" who don't try to more than force a directional change. Kick return team practices the crazy laterals against skeleton DEF who don't try to touch them but force them to change direction/pass.

What I know from coaching youth baseball and soccer and senior men's soccer teams is that fun drills like this turn up on game day.

Coaches forget the rules they could take advantage of like the punt MTL did and get too conservative in the CFL with narrow philosophical thinking and in this era of specialization players no longer have the skills to be a running back, make a quick kick or toss a pass.
Last edited by Toppy Vann on Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
Post Reply