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Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:05 am
by Hambone
Rammer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:24 am
Hambone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:25 pm
I spent 4 hours prior to kickoff in a Horseshoe Bay ferry lineup and all but the final 9 minutes on the boat so still haven't seen even a highlight. After the DPI on Burnham BC challenged and lost Moj was thoroughly convinced the Command Centre was either high on pot or drunker than skunks on JD.
A frequent traveller like yourself should make reservations, drive up a half hour before your sailing and save hours of frustration in a ferry lineup. Of course this is only giving my view on the replay of your night in Horseshoe Bay.
As for replay itself, another aspect the Command Center should use on all but a fumble review is the review at full speed, no slow mo. Sweet at game speed and if there is no anything significant, then go with the infield call.
That said the lateral play shouldn't be blown dead, as the play on a turnover (well it should have been) should be played to conclusion.
Normally I would reserve or at least would avoid Friday especially coming from the mainland which is always much busier than coming from the island. But it was a last minute thing with dates being dictated by ability to schedule a meeting with a potential client in Adams Lake. If I could've met with them this week then I would've waited until next Sunday to come over catching the Lions game on the way through. It wasn't until Wednesday that I knew I couldn't schedule the meeting for this week. I'll meet on the way back north after the long weekend. Even going back over this coming Friday reservations were already sold out when I checked early this past week,
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:47 am
by Sir Purrcival
As a die hard CFL fan, if I can't watch a game as it happens, I always record and go back to it later. By half way through the 4th Q., I stopped recording the Lions game and walked away. I was that disgusted by the way the game was was being called. I similarly ignored the rest of games for this week. That is a bad sign IMO. Not stomping my feet in a fit of petulance, I simply don't like how angry I become watching what is supposed to be an evenly ruled game be anything but.
Sure I have orange coloured glasses sometimes but I always find when the commentating crew who really don't have a stake, more or less, echoing my sentiments about the way a game is being called, then that is pretty bad. As I have stated in other posts, I don't really have a beef with the on field officials. They get one look and have to make a call in split seconds and that can be tough. But I have none of those sympathies for the Command Centre. Nor do I care much for the coach fishing system where they are looking over the highlights just about every play for something they can challenged if needed.
I would ammend the system in the following ways. 2 challenges per team period. No extras even if you are right. I would also penalize teams for unsustained challenges. 10 yards for delay of game ought to cause some hesitation for some of these lightweight, hope and prayer, challenges.
Other options might include a shorter time limit on throwing challenge flags. You have from the end of the play to when the ball is placed on the LOS. After that, too late and a penalty for throwing under those circumstances. 10 yard delay of game once again.
It is time put and end to the situation where as a fan, you are unsure if you can cheer a play because you are waiting to see if a coach is going to throw a yellow hankie. If a penalty is that obvious, then challenges should be equally easy for a coach to decide to throw a flag. This routine of scouring over the play using tablets and looking to see if you can find an infraction in slow-mo is garbage. It is ruining the flow the game, changing, IMO, the outcome of some games and that is not the way it was intended. Replay was supposed to be there to correct egregious onfield errors. Not break down to the smallest minutia whether some small infraction occured in the course of the play. It is blatant manipulation of a system by teams and coaches and in all honesty, some of them should be ashamed of the way they have used this system to the detriment of the game as a whole. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
As for the Command Centre, they have to get some consistency when they are called upon. It is ridiculous that between games, let alone within games, that similar actions get treated differently. How obvious things like that lateral could be missed is beyond the pale. If they can't do better than the onfield officials with benefit of all the technology at their disposal then get rid of they system altogether.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:52 pm
by maxlion
The call on the lateral wasn't wrong. There just wasn't video evidence showing it to be a lateral. It was inconclusive and could have gone either way. Nothing wrong with video review or coaches' challenge in this instance.
The problem is with reviews that consist of judgement calls, primarily PI, and also roughing the passer among others. There needs to be consistent application of principles that inform these judgement calls, and these principles need to be clearly communicated to everyone involved: coaches, officials, broadcasters, fans.
What constitutes PI? At this time, nobody knows. That is the problem.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:07 pm
by Sir Purrcival
Well, I am willing to concede that I might be biased but looking at the Esk fans forum, many there seemed to think it was, one also said that it looked like they got the calls that half which no one disagreed with. Riderfans posters also seemed to be of the opinion that it was a lateral. Now we are all looking at the same stuff as the command centre. I'm pretty sure that none of the fans of those two teams are pulling for the Lions. Quite the opposite really. It is a case of Tomato, tomawto and it is over so that is that but the main thrust of the post is that replay isn't being used as intended, isn't as consistent as it needs to be and that changes games and loses credibility as whole for the league.
As I think about it, if the pass is parallel to the LOS, and the receiver misses it, does that count as a fumble? If parallel to the LOS it is not a forward pass. Perhaps there is a guru here who knows the answer to that one.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:07 pm
by Hambone
Often challenges come not from coaches but from the insistence and badgering of players. When I watched the Lions play in Toronto and Montreal Wally challenged 3 times. Burnham badgered Wally to throw the challenge on a play ruled incomplete. Play was across the field. In Montreal Jennings pleaded Wally to challenge for RTP. Finally Lulay, tablet in hand, talked Wally into challenging for DPI or illegal contact.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:15 pm
by maxlion
A pass that is parallel to the LOS is a lateral.
From the video I saw, I agree that it looked like a lateral pass. However, it was not conclusive. Therefore , the review was not in error in my opinion. Other fans probably think it was an error because they are cynical about the ability of the command centre to make the correct call.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:18 pm
by Hambone
Sir Purrcival wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:07 pm
Well, I am willing to concede that I might be biased but looking at the Esk fans forum, many there seemed to think it was, one also said that it looked like they got the calls that half which no one disagreed with. Riderfans posters also seemed to be of the opinion that it was a lateral. Now we are all looking at the same stuff as the command centre. I'm pretty sure that none of the fans of those two teams are pulling for the Lions. Quite the opposite really. It is a case of Tomato, tomawto and it is over so that is that but the main thrust of the post is that replay isn't being used as intended, isn't as consistent as it needs to be and that changes games and loses credibility as whole for the league.
As I think about it, if the pass is parallel to the LOS, and the receiver misses it, does that count as a fumble? If parallel to the LOS it is not a forward pass. Perhaps there is a guru here who knows the answer to that one.
On the lateral one it is very difficult to tell on a close play unless through shear outhouse luck a camera happens to be on a purrfect line with the plane of the flight of the ball. Any other camera angle and the eyes can play tricks on you.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:04 pm
by B.C.FAN
The lateral play was too close to overturn the call on the field. That's a correct call by the command centre. The video evidence has to be "indisputable" to overturn a call on the field.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:00 pm
by Huge Talent
Although the replay system isn't purrfect, I'll bet we wouldn't be having this thread if the decisions were higher quality. Honestly, someone needs to be axed after the purifoy PI call. They make the right call there and there isn't really a problem. Coach will do these hope and prayer challenges when they think it's a coin flip rather than sound decision making. I'm sorry, but when you have all the angles at your disposal, the call should be right. Judgment calls should be made with an element of, well, judgment. Calls overturned need to be egregious - beyond a reasonable doubt, rather than a fresh look... Especially when that fresh look is apparently out to lunch.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:58 pm
by TheLionKing
Sir Purrcival wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:47 am
As a die hard CFL fan, if I can't watch a game as it happens, I always record and go back to it later. By half way through the 4th Q., I stopped recording the Lions game and walked away. I was that disgusted by the way the game was was being called. I similarly ignored the rest of games for this week. That is a bad sign IMO. Not stomping my feet in a fit of petulance, I simply don't like how angry I become watching what is supposed to be an evenly ruled game be anything but.
Sure I have orange coloured glasses sometimes but I always find when the commentating crew who really don't have a stake, more or less, echoing my sentiments about the way a game is being called, then that is pretty bad. As I have stated in other posts, I don't really have a beef with the on field officials. They get one look and have to make a call in split seconds and that can be tough. But I have none of those sympathies for the Command Centre. Nor do I care much for the coach fishing system where they are looking over the highlights just about every play for something they can challenged if needed.
I would ammend the system in the following ways. 2 challenges per team period. No extras even if you are right. I would also penalize teams for unsustained challenges. 10 yards for delay of game ought to cause some hesitation for some of these lightweight, hope and prayer, challenges.
Other options might include a shorter time limit on throwing challenge flags. You have from the end of the play to when the ball is placed on the LOS. After that, too late and a penalty for throwing under those circumstances. 10 yard delay of game once again.
It is time put and end to the situation where as a fan, you are unsure if you can cheer a play because you are waiting to see if a coach is going to throw a yellow hankie. If a penalty is that obvious, then challenges should be equally easy for a coach to decide to throw a flag. This routine of scouring over the play using tablets and looking to see if you can find an infraction in slow-mo is garbage. It is ruining the flow the game, changing, IMO, the outcome of some games and that is not the way it was intended. Replay was supposed to be there to correct egregious onfield errors. Not break down to the smallest minutia whether some small infraction occured in the course of the play. It is blatant manipulation of a system by teams and coaches and in all honesty, some of them should be ashamed of the way they have used this system to the detriment of the game as a whole. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
As for the Command Centre, they have to get some consistency when they are called upon. It is ridiculous that between games, let alone within games, that similar actions get treated differently. How obvious things like that lateral could be missed is beyond the pale. If they can't do better than the onfield officials with benefit of all the technology at their disposal then get rid of they system altogether.
Some excellent ideas SP
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:02 pm
by DanoT
B.C.FAN wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:04 pm
The lateral play was too close to overturn the call on the field. That's a correct call by the command centre. The video evidence has to be "indisputable" to overturn a call on the field.
It's just too bad that the Command Centre isn't capable of applying the same criteria from play to play within a game.
So expecting something like consistency from the CC from game to game is fantasy. And for a whole season? Might as well replace the CC's TV replay monitors with a dart board. And based on the results that we are seeing, they may already have a dart board.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:02 pm
by David
Randy Ambrosie wrote:“I’m aware of the anxiety that was created (Friday) night, and ultimately, what I want to to is sit down at the league office on Monday and use this as a jumping-in point to have a conversation with the teams — what’s working and what isn’t working, and what can we do to improve it,” said Ambrosie, stopping off in Calgary on Saturday night on his nine-city league tour.
“It’s been three-and-a-half weeks, and I’ve been drinking from a firehose on many fronts. But this is an area that I want to get involved in over the next weeks and dig into it. If we have a problem, what is it? And what can we do to improve it. Everyone shares one goal. We want the players on the field to decide the outcome of the game, and we want that to be supported by great officiating.”
So I take it he got my Tweet after the game Friday....
DH
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 am
by Sir Purrcival
David wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:02 pm
Randy Ambrosie wrote:“I’m aware of the anxiety that was created (Friday) night, and ultimately, what I want to to is sit down at the league office on Monday and use this as a jumping-in point to have a conversation with the teams — what’s working and what isn’t working, and what can we do to improve it,” said Ambrosie, stopping off in Calgary on Saturday night on his nine-city league tour.
“It’s been three-and-a-half weeks, and I’ve been drinking from a firehose on many fronts. But this is an area that I want to get involved in over the next weeks and dig into it. If we have a problem, what is it? And what can we do to improve it. Everyone shares one goal. We want the players on the field to decide the outcome of the game, and we want that to be supported by great officiating.”
So I take it he got my Tweet after the game Friday....
DH
LOL
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:49 am
by mountaincat
many years ago there was an early morning show carried on 1040 called "the first team on fox", hosted by steve czaban out of washington dc. by the time 1040 affilated with fox sports radio and picked up this show, it didn't have a very long run before it was axed by fox, which has never managed to find a stable longterm replacement for that time slot. call it the curse of "the czabe". anyway, in my relatively short time listening to the show on our local station, i kinda got hooked on this guy's intelligent and frequently contrarian takes (only on sports -- when he has veered into non-sports stuff at times, he comes off as a wannabe shock jock). i've followed him on and off over the years as some version of the show has lived on somehow on this or that network (currently, i pick it up on podcast from espn980 in washington). he's been doing sports radio for 25 years.
to cut to the point, for the last few years, he's been steadily beating a very contrarian drum on this issue of replay. his solution: get rid of it. completely. replay reviews are killing sports, especially football. the game was meant to be played at, and enjoyed at full speed, and you either accept it that way, with human error, or you over-analyze, over-technologize, and -- if you take it to its logical conclusion with 4k and much higher resolutions on the way -- over-quantify every possible play to an absurdly granular level, where we will be zooming in on individual blades of grass or pellets of fieldturf to see if a player's foot landed in bounds or not.
no one knows what a catch is anymore in the NFL. no one knows what PI is in the CFL. replay isn't helping, it's making it worse. and it's slowing down what is supposed to be a fast, exciting game and making it boring.
it's the blind faith that technology will solve all human shortcomings that led us here. the thing is, technological tools are not themselves neutral or flawless, and are only as good as the human hands that wield them and the human biases that go into their design and application. replay reviews in football are being used clumsily and changing the game for the worse. you either continue to awkwardly wrestle with this technology while the game slowly dies, or hand it all over to the coming AI computers to decide (might sound crazy now, but today's replay tech would've sounded crazy a few generations ago), or... you live with the occasional missed call like we all used to before. was it purrfect then, of course not. is it purrfect now, hell no. there's no such thing as purrfect. this is supposed to be a game. it's supposed to be fun, to play and to watch. you're supposed to run around, get the ball in the other team's end zone, and keep it outta yours... not analyze to death every minor detail of every single slightly ambiguous play or call.
Re: Video Replay
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:16 am
by Sir Purrcival
Speaking of today's tech, I have long wondered why we still rely on human vision to determine things like whether or not a ball broke the plain of the goal line or a first down was made. for example, why couldn't some kind of detection be used to indicate whether a ball has crossed some point or another. Kind of like antishoplifting stuff but more sophisticated? A chip in a ball, detectors under the line kind of stuff? You have to wonder if it would be possible. Maybe not necessarily an improvement but that seems to come up a lot.