Dave Naylor, TSN: Toronto is not a football town

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sj-roc
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He was just on 1040 with Sekeres moments ago talking about this. For better or worse every word he says here is true.

We might lament the relative lack of market response in recent years to our own team at times, but we're light years ahead of the Big Smoke.

His point about the "soulless"-ness of the type of football fandom that predominates in Toronto — diffuse support for various NFL teams — is especially astute.

http://www.tsn.ca/naylor-toronto-is-not ... n-1.105964
Over the [Thanksgiving] weekend, one of the most dramatic moments in recent Toronto pro sports took place Friday night.

The Toronto Argonauts trailed the Hamilton Tiger Cats by 13 points with less than three minutes to play, before rallying for a dramatic come-from-behind win capped by Ricky Ray throwing a 69- yard touchdown pass to win it.

You may have heard about it, but chances are you didn't see it if you live in Toronto. Even less a chance that you were there to see it live. And when you go back to work tomorrow, it won't be what everyone is talking about.

In a football city, with a real football beating heart, it would be all the buzz.

If this were Regina, Winnipeg, Calgary … even Vancouver, such an ending to a rivalry game would create ripples that would last for days if not all week.

But not here in Toronto the worst football city in North America.

Don't believe me?

Where else is there a city where the matter of a football team winning or losing isn't a matter of concern for most of the city's sports fans.

Nowhere, that's where. Except here.

Because everywhere else in the US or Canada there's a pro or college football teams that captures the souls of the local populace.

And think about it, every type of football entertainment there is has failed in Toronto.

The Argos haven't penetrated the city's mainstream sporting consciousness since the early 1980s. The university game at York University or the University of Toronto draws flies to watch teams that are usually not competitive.

They used to play the Vanier Cup in Toronto but unless a local team was involved, the crowds were embarrassingly small.

The NCAA held a college game here called the International Bowl but it turned into a money-loser.

And even the mighty NFL, the mighty NFL, flopped here when the Bills in Toronto series turned out to be a fiasco.

The most popular sport in North America, a money sport across the continent, is a consistent money loser in Toronto where there is simply no football rallying point.

Would it be different if the city ever got an NFL team? Absolutely it would.

But those prepared to count on that happening someday have to be considered dreamers.

And don't tell me that this is a great football town because everyone supports their own NFL team which adds up to a massive collective fandom. That's true, but it's also completely soulless and adds absolutely nothing to the fabric of this city because there is no rallying point, no common thread.

That's what every other city has, except ours.

Toronto is a wonderful place to live. A place with great music and theater, restaurants and nightlife and sports.

Yes our home city has an awful lot going for it.

But gawd, it sure ain't a football town.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Sir Purrcival
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Well, while that may be currently true, I do strongly believe that the overall experience is somewhat tainted by Skydump. Horrible sightlines, souless building, etc. As I recall, Montreal had their share of troubles until they got out of their arena. After they did that, they experienced a resurgence that hasn't ever stopped and includes 3 titles. When the Argo's move out of their current digs, I expect them to do better as well. As I recall, the NFL didn't do too well in it's experimental foray into the Toronto market either so that kind of shoots the NFL love myth to hell IMO. Would the NFL do better? Maybe, but only because as a league they have a lot more brainwashing cash for marketing. In a typical NFL season, how many really good games do they actually have? 10%, 20%? The rest are usually snoozers or blow outs. The problem is that people are too indoctrinated to call that for what it is. If it is NFL it has to be great blah, blah, blah. Sort of the way hockey is treated up here. A lot of mediocre games in some cities where the fans couldn't give a rats you know what and and then you get the Leafs. A team that does well without actually deserving any of the support it actually gets.
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Spud387
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Toronto has the same problem Vancouver has, but to an even larger extent. With both of us being the biggest cities with the most going on, the CFL teams can get drowned out by everything else going on. The BC Lions have done well to stay noticeable, but that is also in part to a decade on continuous success and competitiveness. Toronto being larger than Vancouver with more going on allows the Argos to drift into obscurity. The only way to dig themselves out of that is to make the experience enjoyable and entertaining. This means they need an enjoyable game atmosphere AND success on the field to gain fans.
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JohnHenry
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Angus Reid did a national sports survey last Nov., which showed Toronto exceeding the national average (35% to 33%) of people who follow football very or fairly closely. I wouldn't say Toronto was a bad football town at all. While the NFL interest might be diffused, I don't see the CFL support being any different than other franchises. There are more entertainment choices in Toronto but there are also a lot more people. The problem is Skydome is a crummy place to watch a football game. With all the home games on TV, many fans have made the choice to stay home and watch.

If the Argos relocate to a more intimate football-specific stadium in Toronto, they will draw 20,000 to 25,000 fans like the other eastern franchises. The problem is the political-will to support the team, because they are viewed as inferior and not "cool" at this time. Governments have funded the football stadiums in every other CFL city, so if the Argos are to survive, they will need that same consideration. The team needs somebody with some political capital to take charge and spearhead the campaign to get their stadium deal done...like perhaps Toronto's soon-to-be new mayor John Tory, a former CFL commissioner? :thup:
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David
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The key to remaining relevant in any CFL market - whether it be Calgary, Montreal, Edmonton, or Toronto is to connect with the community, and the Argos have not done a good enough job on this front, IMO. Yes, they have to work twice as hard to make that connection given the size of the market and the sporting landscape, but it's essential for survival. It's not just about playing winning, entertaining football (although that certainly helps, particularly in the short term).

The Lions only figured this out in the Ackles era (Read, Write and Roar, Orange Helmet Awards, Waterboys etc) through several years of grassroots dedication and hard work. Before that (in the days of David Braley, George Chayka, and Adam Rita) we were, to be charitable, a lost cause in this area. Our players continue to be wonderful ambassadors for our league, city, and team - with many volunteering their time with amateur football. THAT is how you get 31,217 in the building to watch a :500 team take on an 2 win expansion franchise with the Canucks playing next door.



DH :cool:
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TheLionKing
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David wrote:
The Lions only figured this out in the Ackles era (Read, Write and Roar, Orange Helmet Awards, Waterboys etc) through several years of grassroots dedication and hard work. Before that (in the days of David Braley, George Chayka, and Adam Rita) we were, to be charitable, a lost cause in this area. Our players continue to be wonderful ambassadors for our league, city, and team - with many volunteering their time with amateur football. THAT is how you get 31,217 in the building to watch a :500 team take on an 2 win expansion franchise with the Canucks playing next door.

DH :cool:
A lot of the 31,217 were free tickets, thanks to Skulsky "guarantee win"
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But despite what Dave Naylor says, the fact of the matter is that compared to the other pro sports in the city the Argonauts are by far the most successful with a large fan base when the team does well. After their 1992 and 1993 World Series the Blue Jays have achieved limited success along with the Raptors, Maple Leafs, and Toronto FC while in the last 25 years the Argonauts have captured the Grey Cup five times.

And I've stated countless times that whenever the Argonauts win the Grey Cup there's always a large celebration in the form of a huge parade and ceremony that brings an excess crowd of 50,000 with the last case in 2012:
http://www.thestar.com/photoplayer/1293823
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/27/ar ... ory-parade
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/100th-grey-cu ... -1.1047905

And that's a heck of bigger celebration compared to other CFL cities whenever their team wins the Grey Cup, including and especially Vancouver and their Lions. :sigh:
Last edited by Robbie on Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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notahomer
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sj-roc wrote:He was just on 1040 with Sekeres moments ago talking about this. For better or worse every word he says here is true..............
I read this the day it was posted by Naylor and decided against posting about it ( :wink: but I'm glad you did :good: ).

I think there are a dedicated hard core group of CFL fans in EVERY SINGLE CFL city and while I may agree with much of what he outlines, I still honour those fans who DO CARE.

I sure hope there will be a way to discover the purrfect fit so the Argos will not be seen as weaker siblings in the CFL. They have their die-hard fans, the Argo bounce etc.... Right stadium, right marketing plan, IMO, the Argos will get another Argo bounce and do as well off the field as they sometimes do on it....
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Toppy Vann
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Do they do ratings for just Toronto and region for CFL games on TSN?
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WestCoastJoe
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But not here in Toronto the worst football city in North America.
.....

And even the mighty NFL, the mighty NFL, flopped here when the Bills in Toronto series turned out to be a fiasco.

The most popular sport in North America, a money sport across the continent, is a consistent money loser in Toronto where there is simply no football rallying point.

Would it be different if the city ever got an NFL team? Absolutely it would.

But those prepared to count on that happening someday have to be considered dreamers.

And don't tell me that this is a great football town because everyone supports their own NFL team which adds up to a massive collective fandom. That's true, but it's also completely soulless and adds absolutely nothing to the fabric of this city because there is no rallying point, no common thread.

That's what every other city has, except ours.
Almost makes me feel sorry for Toronto, the would-be Centre of the Universe. :wink:

Well, they do have the Leafs. Ummm LOL

Like the Sharks fans said years ago, "Nice logo." What are "Leafs"?

Except, I do wish the the best for our little Mom and Pop league, the CFL. Great product on the field, even when the scoring is low, IMO. And the CFL needs Toronto. Otherwise I would wish Toronto farewell and have the franchise moved to a city that wants the CFL.

Naylor makes some great points. IMO Toronto needs to get over its "Major League pride." Yes they have the Blue Jays. The Raptors. And the Leafs. But those teams do not challenge for the championships. And it seems to me NFL envy is dying a slow death in Toronto.

Hope for the Argos? We just carry on. Can't sell to disbelievers. Not even with a good product. In the short run anyway.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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sj-roc
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JohnHenry wrote:Angus Reid did a national sports survey last Nov., which showed Toronto exceeding the national average (35% to 33%) of people who follow football very or fairly closely. I wouldn't say Toronto was a bad football town at all. While the NFL interest might be diffused, I don't see the CFL support being any different than other franchises. There are more entertainment choices in Toronto but there are also a lot more people. The problem is Skydome is a crummy place to watch a football game. With all the home games on TV, many fans have made the choice to stay home and watch.

If the Argos relocate to a more intimate football-specific stadium in Toronto, they will draw 20,000 to 25,000 fans like the other eastern franchises. The problem is the political-will to support the team, because they are viewed as inferior and not "cool" at this time. Governments have funded the football stadiums in every other CFL city, so if the Argos are to survive, they will need that same consideration. The team needs somebody with some political capital to take charge and spearhead the campaign to get their stadium deal done...like perhaps Toronto's soon-to-be new mayor John Tory, a former CFL commissioner? :thup:
I think you're missing Naylor's point, though. Pretty much EVERY football market on this continent, whether it's CFL, NFL, NCAA or (in the case of a place like Laval) CIS, expresses its football fandom principally through its OWN team.

That's
what makes you a football town. In Tor/southern Ont, this is NOT the case, where you have a lot of folks of who follow the Bills and a handful of other (perhaps mostly border state) NFL teams and it's really the only football market in North America where you see this sort of bizarre attachment to out-of-market teams (granted the Argos have their hardcore fans too, but they seem to be overshadowed by this other species of football fan). It's kind of pathetic, really, when you think about it. Can you imagine folks in Columbus, OH — the city that the OSU Buckeyes call home — being this giddy over say, the Pittsburgh Steelers? If Tor simply had little interest in any brand of football whatsoever, that would be one thing. But this is clearly another.

The ironic thing is that Toronto fancies itself a "world class city", but cities don't earn this label by identifying with the great features, symbols, landmarks, etc of other cities. They celebrate and embrace their own.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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David
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TheLionKing wrote:
David wrote:
The Lions only figured this out in the Ackles era (Read, Write and Roar, Orange Helmet Awards, Waterboys etc) through several years of grassroots dedication and hard work. Before that (in the days of David Braley, George Chayka, and Adam Rita) we were, to be charitable, a lost cause in this area. Our players continue to be wonderful ambassadors for our league, city, and team - with many volunteering their time with amateur football. THAT is how you get 31,217 in the building to watch a :500 team take on an 2 win expansion franchise with the Canucks playing next door.

DH :cool:
A lot of the 31,217 were free tickets, thanks to Skulsky "guarantee win"
Huh? :hypno:

Farhan Lalji said about 5,000 tix were given to amateur football, but doesn't think there were many redeemed for the "Guarantee Win." Not for that game anyway (most are for the Calgary game). Also, if there wasn't interest in the team, there wouldn't have been that many butts in the seats - tickets paid or otherwise. Hell, there weren't even many season ticket "no shows." I know it doesn't fit the narrative that some Lionbackers are trying to tell that this is a train wreck of a season and no one wants to renew, but I think that's all a little premature.

The in-house camera shots of fans that were continually shown on the giant scoreboard seemed to indicate that people were really enjoying themselves.


DH :cool:
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sj-roc
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David wrote:The key to remaining relevant in any CFL market - whether it be Calgary, Montreal, Edmonton, or Toronto is to connect with the community, and the Argos have not done a good enough job on this front, IMO. Yes, they have to work twice as hard to make that connection given the size of the market and the sporting landscape, but it's essential for survival. It's not just about playing winning, entertaining football (although that certainly helps, particularly in the short term).

The Lions only figured this out in the Ackles era (Read, Write and Roar, Orange Helmet Awards, Waterboys etc) through several years of grassroots dedication and hard work. Before that (in the days of David Braley, George Chayka, and Adam Rita) we were, to be charitable, a lost cause in this area. Our players continue to be wonderful ambassadors for our league, city, and team - with many volunteering their time with amateur football. THAT is how you get 31,217 in the building to watch a :500 team take on an 2 win expansion franchise with the Canucks playing next door.



DH :cool:
Great point, David — having a solid community presence is a MUST for pretty much any pro sports team. The Canucks dominate the sports landscape in this market and would probably still get a big slice of the pie even if they barely ever lifted a finger as far as community outreach goes, but even they do tons of this stuff. The Lions have to be equally aggressive in getting their brand out into the community if they're to have any hope of surviving. Ackles as you say turned this franchise around with all these strong efforts and he even made the point in his book about how crucial this stuff is to the team's success. The on-field stuff is really the easy part when it comes to running a football team, he noted. Making people CARE about it is often a bigger challenge; you need to offer up some good faith quid pro quo.

I can't comment how well the Argos are doing in this phase of their operation but stronger efforts probably wouldn't hurt their cause.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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cromartie
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Where else is there a city where the matter of a football team winning or losing isn't a matter of concern for most of the city's sports fans.

Nowhere, that's where. Except here.
Wrong. Try St. Louis, where the Rams are an afterthought. Or Los Angeles, back when they had either the Raiders or the Rams. Or Miami. Or Atlanta pre Michael Vick. Or Indianapolis pre-Peyton Manning. Or Tampa Bay now. Or Miami when a good Heat team overlaps with a bad Dolphins team. Or San Diego just about any time, brah.

There are a lot of misconceptions about sports markets and their relative elasticity. Since I've had my fair share of flight delays, I've given this a lot of thought. What I've come up with is that you can divide North American sports markets into essentially four types:

1) College Towns. These are markets where a strong university presence dictates that one college sport, usually football, assumes the dominant financial, marketing and media coverage base. For the most part, there is no overlap between a professional team and a college team in these markets. Where there is, however, college sports dominates. Columbus, OH is probably the primary example of this. Ohio State football rules coverage there, and the Blue Jackets suffocate beneath it and Ohio State in general. Jacksonville, FL because it resides in SEC country, could be considered a town where SEC football ranks nominally above the NFL. (There's a reason that Florida and Georgia play in Jacksonville every year).

2) Sports Ambivalent Towns. These towns have no dominant sports franchise. They tend to consist of transient populations or populations without a cultural tradition of community centered professional sports. Can you make a profit there? Usually, but television ratings will be so/so, franchise finances are such that you have to put some effort in to break even, and a great deal of effort to get to profitability. The idea that the identity of a town is centered around professional sports is really not part of the local fabric. These towns tend to be concentrated where you think and include: Atlanta, Charlotte, Memphis, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas, Raleigh-Durham, San Diego

3) The One Sport Town. This comprises the majority of sports markets in North America. In these markets, one team in one sport can generally throw open the doors and generate revenue hand over fist regardless of how good they do. Other teams can usually get by in these markets as well, however they need to do significant community outreach and field a winning product in order to generate substantially profitable revenue. These markets include: Cleveland (Browns), St. Louis (Cardinals), Dallas (Cowboys), Los Angeles (Lakers), Pittsburgh (Steelers), Cincinnati (Bengals), Indianapolis (Colts), New Orleans (Saints), Houston (Texans), Buffalo (Bills), San Antonio/Salt Lake City/Oklahoma City (NBA), Portland (Timbers), Nashville (Titans), Milwaukee (Brewers), Kansas City (Chiefs), Green Bay (Packers) .

Every Canadian market falls into this category. For all of these markets, with the exception of Regina, the NHL team is the center of the market, and ancillary teams have to compete for the remaining pool of disposable income through a combination of marketing, smart spending/investment, a competitive on field product and strong and constant community outreach.

4) Durable Markets. Either through geographic isolation, a tradition of professional sports as the centerpiece of cultural identity or sheer numbers, these markets support every professional sporting endavor to a sustainable break even point, provided the franchise makes a reasonable effort. These markets include New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, Denver, Phoenix, Seattle and San Francisco/San Jose

There is an expectation that Toronto should fall into category #4. It does not, and never will. Toronto has the deeply engrained cultural tradition of hockey among the majority of the hardcore sports fans, and those people will invest their time and money in the Leafs come hell or high water. That's it, that's the list. Certainly the other teams can market themselves as "cool" which happens when they play well enough or get a dynamic enough of a personality to generate a buzz or if they open a new stadium. But that buzz is not sustainable. You have other barriers to generating and sustaining interest in sports properties in Toronto that aren't unlike Los Angeles; geographic sprawl, a wide range of things to spend your disposable income on beyond just professional sports, and a lack of cultural root in baseball, football, basketball or soccer. (Or, in the case of the Argos, as with Montreal, a deep set of roots that rotted and died out entirely in from 1960-1990).

Toronto is not a football town. NFL or CFL. It is not a baseball town. It is not a basketball town. It is not a soccer town. It is a hockey town, period. Full stop. Stop expecting it to be anything else. Montreal isn't either. It is a town whose relationship with those sports is akin to Cleveland's with basketball. They'll show up and invest when the product on offer has sufficient marketing buzz and is top tier...and the Browns (or in this case, the Leafs) aren't playing. It is what it is, and that's all it's going to be. Can you do things to help? Sure, and Montreal shows a very clear path to a sustainable market presence. But don't pretend the Argos will ever own the town or be the talk of the town, because they won't. In that sense, Naylor's right.

it's also what makes Toronto a $2 billion mistake as it relates to the NFL. GTA residents will treat an NFL team like Canadians treat American entries in any product line into the market: high sampling, low to sustainable but lower than projected retention. Fortunately, the NFL understands that they can keep the Bills in Buffalo and it will still draw from the GTA under what Richard Florida calls the Torbuffchestercuse regional approach and generate as much, if not more, revenue than yanking the team from that market and putting it in Toronto.

But Naylor doesn't really see the big picture. Most of us don't. What happened in the early 1990s is that marketers got a lot more savvy to the division of disposable income. You aren't just competing against other professional sports teams anymore. You're competing against an ever large pool of opportunities to get disposable income, many of which come with less overhead and larger margins than professional sports. As such, expectations of sports people tend to be unrealistic. Toronto is frustrating, but it isn't unique.
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WestCoastJoe
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Helluva read and a great review of the situation, cro.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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