Official NFL Thread: 2014-2015 Season

[notahomer]

Well the Seahawks are certainly getting to fluff their peacock feathers. IIRC, there was little, if any, Seahawk updates on NFL network last off-season, save Seahawks day on the segment 32 teams/32days.

Every day its a different Seahawk so far. The story of the disrespected, ignored bunch of misfits is getting dead/buried. I'm happy they are getting the coverage. I do think they have some quirks they are going to be able to take advantage of in the short term. For e.g. a starting QB with a Superbowl ring making less than a million/season.

Also being willing to turn undrafted and late round drafted guys into starters. That may sound possible in any organization but its not, even with the Seahawks to an extent. We are talking about a league (NFL) that just could not see the value in a Cam Wake, until given a REAL opportunity here in the CFL. IMO, the Seahawks are a little more flexible in giving those shots but maybe its a thing all teams will focus more on.

IIRC, the Cowboys developed a points system for drafts that is now pretty much used by all teams. IOW, a team develops a system (moneyball in baseball etc...) and when it helps, it gets copied. So, I can see most NFL teams giving their guys a little more of a true shot in preseason. When there is a 'quarterback battle' there really will be as oppossed to one guy being written into the spot with INK. The "US against the WORLD" seems to be a common pro sports theme but the Seahawks have taken it to a new level. Maybe the Miami Misfits or the Cleveland Rejects would be mottos for cities football teams that could help these long suffering teams make it into the playoffs next season.......?

[South Pender]

I like that nota--Miami Misfits and Cleveland Rejects! Don't forget, though, that the Rejects had 5 guys make the Pro Bowl this year. I wonder what that says about the quality of coaching in that sad organization. Geez, I wish the 'Hawks could pry Josh Gordon away from Cleveland....

[WestCoastJoe]

Wells finds Incognito responsible

Updated: February 14, 2014, 11:07 AM ET
By James Walker | ESPN.com

NFL investigator Ted Wells' report on the Miami Dolphins' bullying scandal concluded that Richie Incognito, John Jerry and Mike Pouncey engaged in a pattern of harassment directed at not only Jonathan Martin, but another young Dolphins offensive lineman and an assistant trainer.

The findings of Wells' report were released Friday. He was retained by commissioner Roger Goodell on Nov. 6 to examine the club's workplace environment.

"The Report concludes that three starters on the Dolphins offensive line, Richie Incognito, John Jerry and Mike Pouncey, engaged in a pattern of harassment directed at not only Jonathan Martin, but also another young Dolphins offensive lineman and an assistant trainer," Wells said in a press release. "The Report finds that the assistant trainer repeatedly was the object of racial slurs and other racially derogatory language; that the other offensive lineman was subjected to homophobic name-calling and improper physical touching; and that Martin was taunted on a persistent basis with sexually explicit remarks about his sister and his mother and at times ridiculed with racial insults and other offensive comments."

Martin left the team in October amid claims of bullying and harassment. Incognito was eventually suspended for the final eight games of the season -- six games with pay -- while the NFL investigated the situation.

"We have just received the report from Ted Wells and will review it in detail before responding relative to the findings," Dolphins owner Stephen Ross said. "When we asked the NFL to conduct this independent review, we felt it was important to take a step back and thoroughly research these serious allegations. As an organization, we are committed to a culture of team-first accountability and respect for one another."

Ross recently said he doesn't expect either player to return to Miami next season. Incognito is an unrestricted free agent and Martin has two years left on his contract. Martin is expected to be traded or released.

George Atallah, assistant executive director of NFLPA external affairs, also issued a statement.
"We received the report on workplace conditions in Miami today. We will review the findings closely, confer with our players and all relevant parties involved," Atallah said.

Sounds pretty disgusting.

Classic bullying behaviour. It seems to be part of the human condition, showing up all over the place in varying degrees.

Not a surprise that such a culture could exist in an NFL team. Or any athletic team. It depends on the leaders.

I commend Martin for taking steps to stop what was going on.

[South Pender]

Thanks for posting that, Joe. We've all been waiting with great anticipation for the Wells report and it was delayed somewhat. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the findings. But, as you say, it does shine the light on a disgusting state of affairs--one that would have been tolerated 30 years ago and seen as the norm, I suppose, but not with our present-day sensibilities about these things. It will be really interesting to see whether Incognito (or Martin for that matter) gets picked up by another team.

[WestCoastJoe]

Thanks for posting that, Joe. We've all been waiting with great anticipation for the Wells report and it was delayed somewhat. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the findings. But, as you say, it does shine the light on a disgusting state of affairs--one that would have been tolerated 30 years ago and seen as the norm, I suppose, but not with our present-day sensibilities about these things. It will be really interesting to see whether Incognito (or Martin for that matter) gets picked up by another team.

You're welcome, SP.

When you've been around as long as me, one sees quite a lot of things.

Hazing and harrassmant exist in all different types of workplaces as well. Some of it is sexist. Racist. Ethnic. Deformities. Appearance. Even just plain power. It is a sad statement about humanity. Pecking order stuff. Animal behaviour. But I guess we see signs of improvement. Yes, we do.

This cyberbullying is an awful thing. People seem defenceless against it. Girls committing suicide. Kids feeling no empathy, no sympathy. Rather horrifying.

Face to face, most bullies back down when challenged. But this cyber stuff is insidious. Hard to confront face to face.

It seems to me one of the things that works to improve the situation is the exposure, the media coverage. I think some of the aggressors are shocked at their own behaviour, when it is publicized. It seems that jungle instincts are not all that far beneath the surface of "civilized" people.

[South Pender]

Thanks for posting that, Joe. We've all been waiting with great anticipation for the Wells report and it was delayed somewhat. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the findings. But, as you say, it does shine the light on a disgusting state of affairs--one that would have been tolerated 30 years ago and seen as the norm, I suppose, but not with our present-day sensibilities about these things. It will be really interesting to see whether Incognito (or Martin for that matter) gets picked up by another team.

You're welcome, SP.

When you've been around as long as me, one sees quite a lot of things.

Hazing and harrassmant exist in all different types of workplaces as well. Some of it is sexist. Racist. Ethnic. Deformities. Appearance. Even just plain power. It is a sad statement about humanity. Pecking order stuff. Animal behaviour. But I guess we see signs of improvement. Yes, we do.

This cyberbullying is an awful thing. People seem defenceless against it. Girls committing suicide. Kids feeling no empathy, no sympathy. Rather horrifying.

Face to face, most bullies back down when challenged. But this cyber stuff is insidious. Hard to confront face to face.

It seems to me one of the things that works to improve the situation is the exposure, the media coverage. I think some of the aggressors are shocked at their own behaviour, when it is publicized. It seems that jungle instincts are not all that far beneath the surface of "civilized" people.

All true. I agree about the cyberbullying. It seems to be carried out mainly by adolescents, and we know more about the adolescent brain now than we used to. Traits like empathy, kindness, etc., seem to be only evolving in the teen years and not fully incorporated into the overall picture of the brain and mind until adulthood. Teens (and, interestingly, especially girls) can be incredibly mean. Fortunately, much of that recedes or disappears in adulthood. I must say that sometimes I look back at my own adolescence and wonder "how the hell could I have done that?", although it never got close to present-day levels with any of us. Still, the adolescent brain doesn't excuse this horrifying stuff you've mentioned, and I think that the authorities have been far too lax about requiring accountability from perpetrators.

As for the Incognito affair, I think we should all brace ourselves now for a tidal wave of bumf from his lawyer and/or agent, and all the talking heads will want to express their (often inane) views about it. The media will eat this up with everything they've got; it's a story with "legs."

Edit: Just ran across this on Pro Football Talk (Incognito's lawyer doing the expected):

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... th-errors/

Well, what the hell, here's the rest of Pro Football Talk for today (all Richie Incognito):

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=443855

Three Dolphins engaged in harrassment of Martin

Canadian Press

NEW YORK -- Two other Miami Dolphins offensive linemen joined Richie Incognito in bullying Jonathan Martin, and at least one other lineman and an assistant trainer were also targets of the vicious taunts and insults, according to a report ordered by the NFL.

The report released Friday said John Jerry and Mike Pouncey followed Incognito's lead in harassing Martin, who left the team in October, about not being black enough, threatening to rape his sister and calling him a long list of slurs.

Martin's agent Kenneth Zuckerman said his client feels "vindicated" by the report and plans to continue playing football.

"He feels a great sense of relief," Zuckerman said. "Jonathan Martin is a great man and he's only shown me that he is very honest since the day I met him. He loves football and is eager to get back on the field, regardless of what team he plays for."

Incognito's attorney Mark Schamel released a statement calling Wells' report "replete with errors" and said that Martin "was never bullied by Richie Incognito or any member of the Dolphins' offensive line."

Martin has two years remaining on his rookie contract with the Dolphins but his future with the team remains uncertain. Martin declined interview request through Zuckerman.

Incognito was suspended in November, but Pouncey and Jerry remained starters throughout the season.

Another offensive lineman and an assistant trainer also routinely came under attack from the trio. Neither was identified in the report.

The report also chronicled Martin's struggle to deal with the harassment, including emotional text exchanges with his parents and a description of him crying in the bathroom after one particularly painful attack.

Martin also told investigators that he "believed that trying to engage in a physical confrontation with these three -- whom he viewed as a united group -- would only make matters worse."

Lawyer Ted Wells released his 144-page report Friday.

The report said Martin was subjected to "a pattern of harassment."

Wells says his inquiry found Martin was taunted and ridiculed almost daily. After Martin left the team in October, Incognito boasted about "breaking Jmart" in a notebook the linemen used to tally fines and bonuses among themselves. When the investigation began, Incognito asked another player to destroy the book, but investigators obtained it.

The other harassed player was "subjected to homophobic name-calling and improper physical touching," while the assistant trainer, who was born in Japan, was subjected to racial slurs.

"It was not difficult to conclude that the Assistant Trainer and Player A were harassed, but the questions raised in Martin's case were more complex, nuanced and difficult," the report says.

Although Wells concluded that Martin was abused by three teammates, he qualified some of the assertions in Martin's account.

Evaluating Martin's claims was difficult, "given his mental health issues, his possible heightened sensitivity to insults and his unusual, 'bipolar' friendship with Incognito," the report said.

"Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator."

In a statement emailed by a league spokesman, the NFL did not make any mention of possible punishment stemming from the case. Instead, the league confirmed that it had received Wells' report, and said it appreciated the Dolphins' co-operation with the investigation.

Wells said he does not intend to comment further.

The report comes about three months after Wells was retained by the league to investigate the case, which prompted a national debate about hazing and workplace bullying.

Martin told investigators Incognito joked that he and other teammates would rape Martin's sister, a medical student none of them had ever met. Incognito also called Martin various racial slurs, made jokes about slavery and routinely demeaned Martin for not being "black enough."

The report said Pouncey and Jerry followed Incognito's lead.

"To a great extent, Incognito dictated the culture," the report said. "We doubt that matters would have gotten so out of hand had Incognito not set a tone on the offensive line that made extremely vulgar taunting a typical form of communication."

The 6-foot-5, 312-pound Martin abruptly left the team Oct. 28. He was briefly hospitalized and then joined his family in California and underwent counselling for emotional issues. Incognito was barred from the season's last eight games.

Incognito expressed regrets about the racist and profane language he used with Martin, but said it stemmed from a culture of locker-room "brotherhood," not bullying.

Martin has said he tried to be friends with Incognito. The two players traded more than a thousand text messages in a year's span, and the teasing and vulgar banter went both ways, with references to sex, drugs, violence and bawdy behaviour, often in a jocular tone.

According to the report, Martin was particularly offended over the three men talking openly in front of teammates about wanting to have sex with his sister.

The report said Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey repeatedly and persistently made graphic, sexually explicit comments about Martin's sister.

Martin repeatedly blamed himself in text messages to his parents for not standing up to his teammates, saying he went out of his way to avoid confrontation. The report said Martin at one point he went into the bathroom of a yacht and cried after repeated racial slurs.

The report also found that Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey donned traditional Japanese headbands that featured a rising sun emblem on the anniversary of the 1941 attack that brought the U.S. into World War II and jokingly threatened to harm the assistant trainer as retaliation for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

According to Martin, the assistant trainer confided in him that he was upset about the Pearl Harbor comments, finding them derogatory toward his heritage.

The NFL Players Association, which conducted its own investigation into what happened in Miami, but didn't have the co-operation of Martin, issued a statement on Friday: "We have received the report on workplace conditions in Miami. We will review the findings closely, confer with our players and all relevant parties involved."

Dolphins owner Stephen Ross said in a statement: "When we asked the NFL to conduct this independent review, we felt it was important to take a step back and thoroughly research these serious allegations. As an organization, we are committed to a culture of team-first accountability and respect for one another."

The report also made mention of Martin having suicidal thoughts, which Incognito previously wrote about on Twitter.

"Whether or not Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey fully appreciated the effect of their actions on Martin, there is no doubt that, from Martin's perspective, their actions were abusive and hurtful," the report said. "We are not, however, in a position to evaluate Martin's assertion that the abusive conduct of his teammates was, in fact, the exclusive triggering cause of his depression and contemplation of suicide. We lack the factual information necessary to conduct a comprehensive analysis of Martin's mental health issues and their root causes."

The report adds, "It was not practical for us to try to unravel the specific triggering causes of Martin's onset of depression and suicidal thoughts."

Incognito is a pretty sick character. Bullies like him seem to need a support network before they start their actitivties. They test. Some of those that support the bully do so because they fear that otherwise they will be the target.

When I was quite young, working in a store, a slimy character tried to get my agreement in putting down someone else. I didn't go along. And of course then he tried me on for size. I was a fairly feisty sort, and had done a bit of boxing as a very young teen. I went after him in the stockroom in front of some others, pushing him up against a wall and holding him there. He wanted no part of it. Pathetic. As it happens there were a number of weird types in that store. It seems a culture can grow. And the manager of that store was certainly a cold creature. Absolute mayhem in the stockroom with guys eating potato chips, etc., and the manager would dash through, not looking, not seeing. LOL It must the strangest place I ever worked.

[TheLionKing]

Most bullies are wimps when confronted. They like to prey on the perceived weakness of others.

[notahomer]

I was watching NFL network when this report hit the streets.....

I think there will be big changes to the NFL due to this report.

One coach (O-line coach) was referring to Player A using homophomic terms. Apparently, according to the report he gave this player an inflatable doll as a christmas gift.

The usual things that have been talked about for months.

What I think really helps Martin is that THIS WAS NOT JUST HIM. for months this was supposed to be just him and maybe his 'wimpiness'. Now we find another Olineman and a assistant trainer were HOUNDED by these guys. Harassment was a strong word used throughout the report.

I remember stating on a thread about this bullying issue that I thought the NFL would be FORCED to bring in a code of standards. This is a new era and homophobia and bullying are going to be things people are going to be held accountable for in many areas. I still think there are limits. I think the NFL will bring in standards and I can see the CFL copying those standards to some degree. Arland Bruce's recent comments are obvious proof the CFL players may need some direction.

I work in a healthcare setting. Therefore, I have taken workshops and signed forms making it clear I understand certain guidelines etc... I think a lot of people forget that while they have the right to free speech, there are accompanying responsiblities that come with every right we have.

[South Pender]

I work in a healthcare setting. Therefore, I have taken workshops and signed forms making it clear I understand certain guidelines etc... I think a lot of people forget that while they have the right to free speech, there are accompanying responsiblities that come with every right we have.

Good points, nota. The rights/responsibilities question is one that will probably never be fully resolved in the same way that the definition of pornography has never been resolved (except for the famous, "I can recognize it when I see it"). In Canada, we have these provincial Human Rights Tribunals that often get involved before any real court hears a case. I think that the general consensus has been that they have often muddied the waters and caused more trouble than they've resolved (remember the cases involving Mark Steyn and Maclean's magazine and the several cases involving Ezra Levant). All of this uncertainty about the rights/responsibilities issue has, of course, been manna from heaven for the lawyers.

[notahomer]

Where this Incognito thing makes me laugh is his defensiveness. IMO, he truly believes he's probably the victim in all of this. His lawyer talked about the report being rife with errors (my words but along what he said). I also wonder if the lawyer may have violated some of Martin's rights to confidentiality. Drug use on anyones part was certainly not something I had heard mentioned, maybe it was part of the public record that I missed.

I just think it is a dangerous precedent by the Incognito camp to start throwing mud like drug use, poor performance, mental health issues, when Incognito should have no impact other than as an observer. Its a bit rich to have people defending Incognito for not violating the team code of the lockerroom and then have him (or his representatives) start throwing mud like the ones his attorney has. I also laugh that Incognito would feel EXONERATED before the report was released but now the findings are ones he doesn't agree with, its garbage. So, IOW, if the Wells report completely VINDICATED Incognito, Martin would have had a similar right to complain, I guess? The other two UNNAMED victims are the noose for Incognito.

BUT, it is not all him. The O-line Coach and two other lineman are going to be called on the carpet for this too. IMO, my bet is, just speculation, the O-line Coach is fired, in the very near future. The other two lineman have to do a mea culpa. I DOUBT, Incognito plays again in this league but who knows its the NFL.

Bad timing for him too due to Sam coming out. The Dolphins bullying case and the fact a draftee has come out is the purrfect TIME for the NFL to come down hard on impacting culture. There still will be cultures throughout the NFL but there is a base guideline. In reality its not too hard to see why the Dolphins have struggled, teetering on making the playoffs, when there is such a flawed culture.

I certainly WOULD BE FIRED without question if I gave any co-worker a blowup doll as a gift. It just seems common sense to me........

[South Pender]

Yeah...I think you're right. It's a sort of interesting and timely confluence of the two themes: Incognito/Martin and Sam. And I think you're right about the league getting involved--if for no other reason that they have to, to retain credibility, regardless of how they really see this. A lot of pious boilerplate is going to appear soon. In my view, Incognito is not just a bullying d-bag, but also a guy with some serious psychological problems. I'm not a clinical psychologist or an expert about psychological diagnoses, but he seems somewhat sociopathic and likely a dangerous member of society.

Here's Mike Florio's (NBC Sports Pro Football Talk) take on this confluence of events:

NFL concludes week that will spark plenty of changes
Posted by Mike Florio on February 14, 2014, 3:42 PM EST

It began with Michael Sam, and it ended with Richie Incognito. Taking the last five days together, it’s clear that the NFL will soon be making major changes to the way it does business away from the field.

In less than a month, Incognito will lobby for a second chance (technically, a third chance) to prove that he can behave like a responsible human being in the workplace. In less than three months, Sam will be hoping that his first chance isn’t undermined by a “distraction” caused by nothing illegal or inappropriate.

Ultimately, the league will have to construct policies and practices which ensure that men like Sam will be respected, and that men like Incognito will be dealt with long before creating a distraction far more real and far more damaging than the extra media attention that comes from being the first NFL team with an uncloseted gay player.

Ted Wells’ report recommends that the NFL create “new workplace conduct rules and guidelines that will help ensure that players respect each other as professionals and people.” Look for the league to quickly focus on these big-picture realities, finding a way to craft new policies, to teach them to players, and to hold them responsible for complying.

Ultimately, it’s about having mutual respect. Plenty of joking happens in plenty of workplaces. Fundamentally, however, coworkers are expected to display mutual respect. Even in lines of work that command mental and physical toughness, whether coal mining or law enforcement or military service, the men and women who serve together are expected to demonstrate mutual respect. If they don’t, they face consequences.

At some point, the locker room became frozen in time, as other workplaces evolved and modernized. Some players possibly received a pass because of the rough-and-tumble nature of football. Or maybe we’ve underestimated their ability to treat each other with decency and courtesy. Or maybe guys like Incognito are the product of two-plus decades of chronic excuse-making that happens the moment a young boy shows high athletic ability and the will to use his talents aggressively, on the field and off.

Really, is there any other American workplace where the question of whether an openly gay player would be welcome would be asked in 2014?

The days of “Richie being Richie” are over, for Richie and everyone else like him. The challenge for the NFL will be to convey that message clearly, and to establish meaningful tools for keeping every potential Richie from being Richie.

And players who feel harassed need to have a place to turn, even if that means the creation of an anonymous hotline that allows players like Jonathan Martin or concerned teammates to blow the whistle without fear of repercussion. Regardless of the precise details, the time has come for the NFL to ensure that, even if it is on the fringes, the Dolphins situation won’t repeat itself.

If discipline will be used to ensure that these situations don’t happen again, some sort of discipline may be necessary for those deemed to have engaged in harassment of Jonathan Martin and others. Incognito already has been suspended eight games (two unpaid); Mike Pouncey, John Jerry, and Jim Turner could be next.

Unless, of course, the NFL decides to implement culture change in a way far different than it did two years ago, when it caught one of 32 teams red-handed with a bounty system, and threw the book at the Saints.

Regardless of what happens to the various Dolphins players and coaches for what happened in the past, the bar is going to move a lot higher for everyone moving forward.
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On a completely different note, here's a discussion of elite NFL quarterbacks (and the rest of the group) by Adam Schein, who seems to me to know a thing or three about what he covers:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... in-between

These lists are fun. I would have included Drew Brees in the truly-elite category, along with Manning, Brady, and Rodgers, but Schein saw his one bad season as reason to drop him slightly to the next tier. One point he makes that's absolutely true and worth remembering is that no one gets to be classified as elite until he's played at least 6 or 7 seasons. Promising, maybe, star-like maybe for these younger guys, but elite means the guy has done it over and over again.

[notahomer]

Thanks for those two pieces, South P.....

In regards to the bullying case, apparently the name of the of the Player A has come out.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... s-player-a

He sounds like he is giving a slightly different perspective tilting away from the Wells report. Still I doubt much of this matters. As the piece you posted South P. states "lockerrooms have become frozen in time". The National Football League came down HARD on the Saints, I think for a lot of reasons. Optics? For sure but also how can you claim to care about 'player safety' and NOT come down hard. And Sean Payton was suspended an ENTIRE SEASON, simply because in the NFL's opinion, he SHOULD have known, even if it it may be true that he didn't know.
_________________________________________________________________
The 'elite' QB thing is a common canard, IMO. I think Dan Marino is an elite QB when you look at ALL-TIME but his playoff records certainly don't get him there. I agree with Simms perspective Brady, Peyton and Rodgers. It really doesn't mean anything anyways. An 'ELITE' QB hasn't won a Superbowl in a few years. Stats-wise Romo probably should be considered elite depending on the stats, I guess. I DO NOT consider Romo elite but he has a lot of numbers backing up his play. The numbers that matter to me though (Superbowl wins, playoff wins e.g.) he is NOT elite. And I don't have facts/stats to back me up, Romo seems (SEEMS) to have an unkanny knack for choking under pressure. Okay its not all his fault. The same way Brady/Manning don't seem to do well when pieces of their offences are injured/not playing well.

Here's a firestorm....whose an elite QB in the CFL? My votes AC and RickyRay. Sure, other QB's have won Grey Cups. I'm not slagging Durant, Lulay, Glenn, Burris etc... but if one wants to set out an 'elite' category, I think those are the two in recent seasons that would make that status. Really there is no point though, as elite is subjective and even more tough to quantify, IMO, in a 9 team league. Whaddya think? Whose elite in the CFL, IF ANY?

[South Pender]

I fully agree on AC and Ricky Ray on recent QBs. Of course, Doug Flutie was certainly elite. I'll have to give this more thought; there must be more if we go back a bit. But, I don't think that's what you mean; you mean still playing or just retired, right? So I think just AC and Ricky Ray. Burris has been a little too up and down to be seen as elite. Durant is definitely, in my opinion anyway, NOT elite. Perhaps with a few more years, Lulay might get into that class, but I doubt it.

[notahomer]

I fully agree on AC and Ricky Ray on recent QBs. Of course, Doug Flutie was certainly elite. I'll have to give this more thought; there must be more if we go back a bit. But, I don't think that's what you mean; you mean still playing or just retired, right? So I think just AC and Ricky Ray. Burris has been a little too up and down to be seen as elite. Durant is definitely, in my opinion anyway, NOT elite. Perhaps with a few more years, Lulay might get into that class, but I doubt it.

Oh yeah, of course there would be a LOT more if we go back to previous eras. Elite can even mean different things in different eras. When categorizing ELITE in a league like the CFL, I think there can only be one/two of the current roster of QBs. All-time? Completely different matter, IMO. I don't think there is A NUMBER but certainly each era would have a contender. I don't even believe you are considered an 'elite' QB just because you made the Hall of Fame. I'm probably NOT going to include Damon Allen but certainly an arguement could be made just because he was one of those QB's who WON a lot of games/GreyCups. Then again, Eli has two Superbowl rings but certainly up/down enough to not be elite.

It really, really DOES NOT matter but just for conversations sake, in your opinion, was Dan Marino an elite QB? When I say 'it doesn't matter' I'm not slagging your opinion, of course just saying I doubt it means much to anyone, especially him. He made the Hall.......