Should the Washington Redskins Change Their Team Name?

[notahomer]

I posted a link to what LaRose had to say because he thinks this issue is being overblown.... IIRC, what he had to say was in a recent Province article.

I read what you posted recently regarding 'Geronimo' and didn't disagree.

I'm not at all surprised to see differing opinions on this issue. Even issues like cancer, people have different ideas. This is 'breast cancer awareness' month. I saw a group of women being interviewed and every woman was in the last stage (it was stage 4, IIRC, but could be wrong). They were very upset at how cancer gets talked about as being able to be BEATEN. They said "We fought as hard as anyone but does that mean we are less because our cancer had progressed too far". So, IOW, different people have different perceptions of issues.

Before seeing this interview I would have never seen how somebody, ANYBODY, could be offended by describing a woman as 'beating' cancer but I know differently now. Am I going to chastise every person, especially a person whose had breast cancer, that refers to it as beating cancer, fighting cancer and winning? No, of course not. I am now aware that some people could be offended. There are a lot of things that the majority of us do without a second thought. I personally am glad that sometimes people make comments regarding other perspectives that may not be popular. I am ALMOST always willing to listen, even if I don't agree. And like I said, I agree with 'Geronimo' being a poor choice of name.........

[Toppy Vann]

I posted a link to what LaRose had to say because he thinks this issue is being overblown.... IIRC, what he had to say was in a recent Province article.

I read what you posted recently regarding 'Geronimo' and didn't disagree.

I'm not at all surprised to see differing opinions on this issue. Even issues like cancer, people have different ideas. This is 'breast cancer awareness' month. I saw a group of women being interviewed and every woman was in the last stage (it was stage 4, IIRC, but could be wrong). They were very upset at how cancer gets talked about as being able to be BEATEN. They said "We fought as hard as anyone but does that mean we are less because our cancer had progressed too far". So, IOW, different people have different perceptions of issues.

Before seeing this interview I would have never seen how somebody, ANYBODY, could be offended by describing a woman as 'beating' cancer but I know differently now. Am I going to chastise every person, especially a person whose had breast cancer, that refers to it as beating cancer, fighting cancer and winning? No, of course not. I am now aware that some people could be offended. There are a lot of things that the majority of us do without a second thought. I personally am glad that sometimes people make comments regarding other perspectives that may not be popular. I am ALMOST always willing to listen, even if I don't agree. And like I said, I agree with 'Geronimo' being a poor choice of name.........

I'm with you... not attacking YOU. LaRose is right in my view and I agree with that.

I posted that diatribe about the Eskimos as a joke. I don't think they should change their name but someone out there might.


Your cancer victim point is not dissimilar to Rick Hansen and a few in the disabled community according to some friends who work with disabled. These quiet critics feel that he does not represent their struggles and thus paints the wrong view of how tough it is. For example, years back I suggested a 9 am meeting with a quad back home in BC in another life but our Rehab manager said no. Let this other person choose the morning time as he knew personally just how many hours this person needed to get out of bed and be able to function. I was shocked at the time it took when I looked at this person's track record in the community!

But this stuff and cancer awareness is benefited by these campaigns and people like Rick Hansen. Rick has worked very hard to get awareness of the plight of the severely disabled out there.

I guess Michael J. Fox appearing in Larry David's HBO show could be attacked too where David accuses him of using Parkinson's as an excuse to be a noisy neighbour where I see that as in context raising awareness of the disease.

I very honestly feel that the Redskins name represents the best in native Americans and I would have thought they'd be proud to have the team use that name or Indians. Yes, Whiteskins would be kind of dumb but there is a proud history to that name as there is the Blackhawks and their logo.

This is not about you notahomer at all and your views but look at the Toronto Maple Leafs.

To some the Maple Leaf is a put down to the French as the words of the great song - tune should be our national anthem maybe - are somewhat offensive to Quebecers.

I am blown away that they sing in Scotland before big matches: Flower of Scotland - a song that talks of kicking English butt and sending them home again.

Geronimo blew me away as that code name was known by the President of the USA who watched it unfold.

I guess if you were on the side with bin Laden, the assassination of dumping him at sea would be much worse.

Hope you didn' t think I was attacking YOU notahomer.

[South Pender]

I think the point is, Toppy, that many American Indians do not believe "that the Redskins name represents the best in native Americans," and are just the opposite of being proud to have a team named from a racial slur (and yes, it is a racial slur, being identified as such in just about any dictionary). Given the feelings of the American Indian people themselves, does it matter at all that we think it's a fine name? Worse still would be a belief on our part that they shouldn't feel that way and should think of it as we do. Who are we, as white people, to arbitrate how minorities should think? If they are offended (as many are), what right do we have to tell them that they shouldn't be?

As for "Geronimo," I think you're making far too much out of this. The term "Geronimo" is often used as an exclamation, as:

"Geronimo
dʒəˈrɒnɪməʊ/
exclamation
exclamation: Geronimo

1.
used to express exhilaration, especially when leaping from a great height or moving at speed."

Besides American Indians are proud of Geronimo (as they are of Sitting Bull and other legendary members of their ethnic group). It is not an offensive word to American Indians, whereas "Redskins" most certainly is.

[notahomer]

.....Hope you didn' t think I was attacking YOU notahomer.

Nope, didn't think that. I just am willing to admit that even though something doesn't bother me or impact me directly, I'll still listen with respect. I'm sure you try to do the same.

[KnowItAll]

Vancouver whitecaps are offensive to people with white hair.

yogi and smokey want Chicago to change their name.

I hear Satan is going to write a blog protesting teams names of Devils.

Viking descendants are also about to get up in arms.

there is a partition started by and for people over 7 ft tall to protest using giants.

Catholics are up in arms because the only saints are in heaven.

and what give new England the right to call themselves patriots as if they are the only ones

[South Pender]

Vancouver whitecaps are offensive to people with white hair.

yogi and smokey want Chicago to change their name.

I hear Satan is going to write a blog protesting teams names of Devils.

Viking descendants are also about to get up in arms.

there is a partition started by and for people over 7 ft tall to protest using giants.

Catholics are up in arms because the only saints are in heaven.

and what give new England the right to call themselves patriots as if they are the only ones

Actually, not one of the examples above is a racial slur. "Redskins" is. That's the difference.

[Toppy Vann]

Vancouver whitecaps are offensive to people with white hair.

yogi and smokey want Chicago to change their name.

I hear Satan is going to write a blog protesting teams names of Devils.

Viking descendants are also about to get up in arms.

there is a partition started by and for people over 7 ft tall to protest using giants.

Catholics are up in arms because the only saints are in heaven.

and what give new England the right to call themselves patriots as if they are the only ones

Actually, not one of the examples above is a racial slur. "Redskins" is. That's the difference.

I think the poster made the point how silly some of this stuff gets.

If the Redskins name is a slur then why is the Eskimo name allowed to stand.

And someone posted here that the term redskin did not always have a negative connotation.

This is a tempest in a tea pot in my view the same as it would be if folks started demanding the Eskimos change their name or they can' t sell Eskimo pies.

However this time the Redskins team name attack has all of a sudden got a lot of mainstream media behind it.

As to Geronimo .. native Americans should be outraged how this name was linked to the bin Laden assassination as bin Laden was a terrorist and making that connection with Geronimo is in all honesty degrading his name and history

[KnowItAll]

if the name Geronimo had a part in getting bin laden, I would think that be a good thing.

they were not actually referring to bin laden as Geronimo, were they?

didn't they parachute in?

when I was a kid, for some reason, we always yelled Geronimo when we were jumping off something high, and I don't mean drugs.

[Toppy Vann]

if the name Geronimo had a part in getting bin laden, I would think that be a good thing.

they were not actually referring to bin laden as Geronimo, were they?

didn't they parachute in?

when I was a kid, for some reason, we always yelled Geronimo when we were jumping off something high, and I don't mean drugs.

Yes, we used to do the same. Never knew why though...haha. Hey this story at the end shows the origin of the parachuters yelling out that name but in this case they linked Geronimo to bin laden the terrorist.

They did link the two names and there was some protesting by native Americans but nothing like the Redskins name protest.

If I compare the two the use of the Redskins name vs. equating Geronimo with a cowardly terrorist is really disgusting and done in the name of the US govt. The President MUST have known this name was being used.

Now that is a fight they should have fought harder on to get an apology and use this as a chance to teach the US the real truth of this native American! It would be like Canada terming such a hunt "Louis Riel."

Every time TCM (Turner) shows old cowboy and Indian movies and shows that depict Chinese and Japanese and Mexicans - it illustrates how racist those days were in the depiction of "savages" for the Indians and dumb for the other ethnic groups. But I'm not calling for TCM to stop broadcasting these as these can be teaching and learning tools for schools, parents, etc. To not show them and outlaw them would be ignorant and hiding our history as those in my age group 60s and beyond were programmed on these old movies. We certainly couldn't google Geronimo to find out what really happened as kids can now.

"The Hunt For “Geronimo” is one headline and a book: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012 ... ation-plot

From the BBC:

3 May 2011
Osama Bin Laden: Why Geronimo?
By Kathryn Westcott BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13265069

The code name for the operation to capture Osama Bin Laden is thought to have been Geronimo. Why was it named after one of the best-known Native Americans?

Geronimo. The Apache warrior's name conjures up an image of the American Wild West, the world over.

In the best-known photograph of him - taken in 1887 - he glares defiantly into the camera, gripping a rifle. It was this fearless warrior that led the last band of Apache resistance to the white Americans.

The fact that Bin Laden had been killed by US special forces was reported to President Barack Obama on Sunday with the words "Geronimo EKIA" - Enemy Killed In Action.

Bin Laden was referred to by one as a "21st-Century Geronimo, trying to elude the US military somewhere in a dry mountain range that could easily pass for the American West".

'Geronimo' Code Name For Osama Bin Laden Offends Native Americans

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/0 ... 57669.html

Navy SEALs confirmed the death of bin Laden in Pakistan with the now-iconic transmission: "Geronimo EKIA," or "Geronimo, Enemy Killed in Action." But as the Washington Post is reporting, the use of "Geronimo" -- also the name of a legendary 19th century Apache chief -- in connection with the Al Qaeda leader's death has offended Native Americans, who call the decision both painful and insulting.

“I was celebrating that we had gotten this guy and feeling so much a part of America,” Tom Holm, a former Marine, a member of the Creek/Cherokee Nations and a retired professor of American Indian studies at the University of Arizona, said. “And then this ‘Geronimo EKIA’ thing comes up. I just said, ‘Why pick on us?’ Robert E. Lee killed more Americans than Geronimo ever did, and Hitler would seem to be evil personified, but the code name for bin Laden is Geronimo?”

Here is how I see it too - as a failure to accurately depict the history of the man as he cannot be compared to bin Laden fairly.

As NPR is reporting, some uncertainty about whether Geronimo was being used as a code name for the mission or for bin Laden himself remains. But many say they are offended by the overall context. "Embedded within it is a message that an Indian warrior, a symbol of Native American survival in the face of racial annihilation, is associated with modern terrorism and the attacks on 9/11," writes Lise Balk King at Indian Country Today. "It equates being Native American with being hated, an enemy to the world, and someone to be hunted down and killed, and re-casts one of their heroes into a villainous role."

Adds Jefferson Keel, president of the National Congress of American Indians, in a statement: "To associate a Native warrior with bin Laden is not an accurate reflection of history and it undermines the military service of Native people. It’s critical that military leaders and operational standards honor the service of those who protect our freedom.” Meanwhile, the leader of the Fort Sill Apache Tribe has gone an additional step by asking for a formal apology from President Barack Obama, according to the Associated Press.

CONCLUSION AND WRAP UP:

So some (not all) native Americans protested this bin Laden-Geronimo linkage to no avail and the President didn't have to acknowledge anything here. A lot of the media questions came from overseas who raised their eyebrows at this.

But look at how bent out of shape protesters are getting over the name Redskins for football teams who wear these emblems proudly. Kinda weird to me as while Redskins can be used derogatorily it certainly wasn't intended that way with football teams. I played minor football for the Colts and in the higher division for the Bears. Loved those names. My old high school used the fierce Norsemen warrior as its symbol. They closed the school but today that name is disgusting.

Methinks that the Redskins football teams are just better targets.

Some Canadian minor football group will have to pay some $100,000 to end their use of that name. Crazy!

BOTTOM LINE:

Native Americans should have used this Geronimo linkage to get out the real story and also ask the President to apologize.

[KnowItAll]

I think then that the usa military owes the American first nations a huge apology and then some. I would not let this one go if I was privileged enough to be of first nations heritage.

[South Pender]

So the use of the name "Geronimo" for the raid on Bin Laden should now be used to deflect the issue from the use of the name "Redskins"? So, Toppy, two wrongs make a right? Let's say that the name Geronimo shouldn't have been used (and who knows who chose it; it's very doubtful that it was Obama). Does this mean that, since that was a mistake, we should now ignore racial slurs? I don't see the logic. I could bring up lots of cases of institutional racism, but that wouldn't change, one iota, the issue with the Redskins.

Toppy, you also mentioned "Eskimo." Again, that is not a racial slur. Redskins is. That's the difference. It's roughly equivalent to calling a local team the Richmond Chinamen (or, worse, Chinks).

[South Pender]

...double-post.

[South Pender]

From Pro Football Talk:
_________________________________________________________________

San Francisco Chronicle dumps “Redskins” name
Posted by Mike Florio on October 29, 2013, 8:56 PM EDT
Chronicle Getty Images

The Washington Redskins aren’t ready to stop using their name, but a major newspaper in another city is.

Per multiple industry sources, the San Francisco Chronicle has decided to no longer print the term “Redskins.”

No announcement has been made, and it’s not known whether an announcement is coming. It’s possible, we’re told, that the change will be explained in a column.

Regardless, the decision was communicated internally on Friday, October 25. The 49ers play at Washington on Monday, November 25.

On Wednesday, representatives from the Oneida Indian Nation will meet with NFL executives regarding the opposition to the team’s name. Team owner Daniel Snyder reportedly told Commissioner Roger Goodell on Tuesday that Snyder has no plans to change the name.

Other media organizations has stopped using the name, including the Kansas City Star, Slate.com, and Peter King’s TheMMQB.com.
_________________________________________________________________

This may be how things play out. No one else will use the name!

[Toppy Vann]

In what has to one of the most shocking situations for the CFL this year, TSN today reports that members of the Toronto Argonauts today engaged in what "some Maori leaders thought it was "inappropriate" and a "bastardisation" of the traditional war cry" and were caught on camera performing the Haka by members of the NZ rugby team who have made this famous.

Not sure if we should be reporting to this to the Human Rights officials or just who.

Those protesting the Redskins name as racist slap in the face to the native Indians of North America should join these Maori leaders who feel the same way.

This stuff can get quite silly but then again, there was an upside to the Hakka bringing attention to the history of Maoris which like native Indians was not always nice.

Sometimes folks take things too far because it is an issue that can get publicity and traction.

WARNING TO VIEWERS: This might be "inappropriate" for some viewers.
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/

The Haka (plural is the same as singular: haka) is a traditional ancestral war cry, dance or challenge from the Māori people of New Zealand. It is a posture dance performed by a group, with vigorous movements and stamping of the feet with rhythmically shouted accompaniment.[1] The New Zealand rugby team's practice of performing a haka before their matches has made the dance more widely known around the world.

[South Pender]

This just in on today's home game in Washington:

Redskins beef up security behind their bench . . . at home
Posted by Mike Florio on November 3, 2013, 11:20 AM EST

The ongoing objection to the Redskins name has taken a strange turn.

According to Sal Paolantonio of ESPN, security has been beefed up behind the Redskins bench.

For a home game.

The obvious question becomes whether the goal will be to prevent actual security risks or to silence legitimate protests. On many occasions in many stadiums, pro and college, accounts have emerged regarding proper exercises of free speech being silenced by a team that wants to minimize dissent from the paying customers.

Either way, the situation continues to grow and expand — and the team’s reaction to the possibility of protests in their home stadium will do little to quiet potential protests for road games, continuing Thursday night when Washington plays in prime time for the last time in the Metrodome, the last place where the team won a Super Bowl.