Blue Jays want grass....Argos moving?

[notahomer]

I watched a recent episode of PrimeTime Sports with Bob McCown (special guest Paul Beeston of the Blue Jays). Apparently the Blue Jays think there are too many advantages (FA signings etc...) to switching to a natural grass field, that they are investigating the option..... Fine I said to myself without connecting the dots "What about the Argos"

Thankfullly Bob asked that question. Apparently the timeline for the switch to natural grass at Skydome is partly predicated upon the Argos getting a new place to call home. Beeston claims by 2016 (if IIRC, maybe it was 2018), natural turf will be the way if all things work out.

Sure makes me feel less frustrated. I complain the Lions are always playing second fiddle to the Canucks. At least the Lions don't have to compete with the Marlies, MapleLeafs, Raptors, BlueJays and TorontoFC for sports airtime. I don't want the Argos to end up anywhere else. I wonder where the Argos will end up strapping on the cleats should Skydome go to a natural grass field? Why wouldn't they just play with a natural grass field? I realize stadiums are expensive and a challenge to share but where do they go?

I sure like tuning in McCown's show when I can. Don't always agree with him but there is lots of times I'm glad I caught his show.

[cromartie]

The thought that the Blue Jays problems stem from not having a grass field is comical. Toronto, like Los Angeles, is a complicated and disparate sports market with one overarching team. Everyone else is take it or leave it.

Where else the Argos can play is another matter. Ideally, you'd expand Varsity. I've also read tell of York. Neither is ideal. Their being treated like second class citizens when their attendance is on par with Montreal is absurd. Ultimately, Mr. Braley is probably going to have to step in and solve this problem, and the solution will likely not be cheap.

[the-real-hugo]

Where else the Argos can play is another matter. Ideally, you'd expand Varsity. I've also read tell of York. Neither is ideal.

With the past redesign of Varsity, it looks impossible to add seating on the one side of the field. York looks like the best bet without building a whole new stadium. My understanding is that a 12,500 seat stadium was to be built at York U for the Pan-Am games.
http://www.toronto2015.org/lang/en/the- ... adium.html




Tons of room for expansion, so, although not directly downtown, it could work. Wish them well with the solution.

[Jim Mullin]

York will be left with just under 5,000 seats after the Pan Ams.

If I'm a CIS team, why would I want a 24-30,000 seat stadium on campus? You'll never fill it and it doesn't serve your own needs.

The Argos should seriously consider Downsview or a suburb to build their own facility, perhaps in conjunction with Rugby Canada. Braley has the money if he wants to leave a legacy behind.

[the-real-hugo]

If I'm a CIS team, why would I want a 24-30,000 seat stadium on campus? You'll never fill it and it doesn't serve your own needs.

Perhaps a good question for the U of Manitoba Bisons
York has a 12,500 seat tennis court on campus. I'm sure they're open to a nicer football stadium as well.

[Jim Mullin]

If I'm a CIS team, why would I want a 24-30,000 seat stadium on campus? You'll never fill it and it doesn't serve your own needs.

Perhaps a good question for the U of Manitoba Bisons
York has a 12,500 seat tennis court on campus. I'm sure they're open to a nicer football stadium as well.

Ask the Calgary Dinos what they think of playing out of McMahon, or the Regina Rams playing out of Mosaic. Both would love to have their own facilities and get out of CFL-sized stadia.

University Stadium in Manitoba was a health hazard. I'm sure the Bisons are happy with the move, but as time rolls along access and inventory will become issues for the Herd.

[the-real-hugo]

If I'm a CIS team, why would I want a 24-30,000 seat stadium on campus? You'll never fill it and it doesn't serve your own needs.

Perhaps a good question for the U of Manitoba Bisons
York has a 12,500 seat tennis court on campus. I'm sure they're open to a nicer football stadium as well.

Ask the Calgary Dinos what they think of playing out of McMahon, or the Regina Rams playing out of Mosaic.

I think the fact that York has a 12k seat tennis stadium for professional events says they are open for stadiums which can generate revenue for the University. Certainly I agree with you, it might not be the best scenario for their CIS football club to play in a 3/4 empty venue (especially if it's off campus like McMahon or Mosaic), but if additional events at a campus situated stadium can help financially support the team, it's sometimes the lesser of two evils.

[cromartie]

I can see both sides of this argument. For the record, I lean more toward Hugo. I'll even give you what I think is the correct template, which is in my neck of the woods. Take a good look at Infocision Stadium in Akron. Seats 30k. Has the entire gamut of seating, up to luxury boxes. Is located on campus. Cost just a little over $60 million to build. It's a nice, adaptable template for York. Or Laval. Or Western. Are the optics bad for CIS games? Perhaps. But if the revenue model works, or at least isn't terrible, and the facility is on campus (which is important) then everyone benefits.

The Argos should seriously consider Downsview or a suburb to build their own facility, perhaps in conjunction with Rugby Canada. Braley has the money if he wants to leave a legacy behind.

I can see this point of view also. Toronto is like Los Angeles in that no matter where you put the stadium you're cutting yourself off from part of your geographic base. Downsview may be the least worst option. Others can speak more toward this than I, but that may be a viable alternative.

[Coast Mountain Lion]

If I'm a CIS team, why would I want a 24-30,000 seat stadium on campus? You'll never fill it and it doesn't serve your own needs.

Ask the Calgary Dinos what they think of playing out of McMahon, or the Regina Rams playing out of Mosaic.

Or McGill Redmen playing out of Percival Molson Stadium. Waiddaminnit, that was their home before the Alouettes moved in.

I think the fact that York has a 12k seat tennis stadium for professional events says they are open for stadiums which can generate revenue for the University. Certainly I agree with you, it might not be the best scenario for their CIS football club to play in a 3/4 empty venue (especially if it's off campus like McMahon or Mosaic), but if additional events at a campus situated stadium can help financially support the team, it's sometimes the lesser of two evils.

McMahon is located here http://goo.gl/maps/PUDUc, just across 24th Avenue from the UofC campus. Someone else can look up the location of Mosaic WRT UofRegina.

[Jim Mullin]

It looks like they got more for their $60 million in Akron than MLSE got for their $60 million dollar bleacher set at the CNE.

But here's the point. If the Argos are really using their heads on this, do they want to play in a track stadium? They could do a half-assed add on to York, but the University would want more than just seats. The Tennis Stadium is more than just seating, it is a National Tennis Centre for athlete development. The University would likely be looking for added facilities for athlete development.

For $70m Braley can have his legacy in the form of a football-specific facility and give the CFL a fighting chance in the GTA.
The plus with York is that it will be at the end of a new TTC line.

[Jim Mullin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_Bowl

Hey, we could have bought the Rubber Bowl for 38k last year!

[David]

The next move by the Argos is critical to their success and, ultimately, their survival. There's not a lot of margin for error.

I agree that Mr. Braley could leave quite a legacy for Toronto and the Canadian Football League. If I am not mistaken though, he feels that bigger is better (for revenues from Finals and Grey Cups) and is not in the stadium building business. If PavCo hadn't come along with a $563MM renovation for BC Place after part of the roof's fabric tore off, we'd likely still be dealing with 'same old, same old.'

I would love to see the Calgary model implemented in Toronto. A 30,000 - 35,000 seater with no track (with much better amenities than McMahon though), that is TTC accessible but still has a parking lot with a liberal tailgaiting policy. Unlikely, but that could really be the fun 'hook' that gets younger people to games.

[JohnHenry]

There's no history of CFL team's building their own stadiums. Traditionally it's the federal, provincial and civic governments which finance football stadiums in Canada. There just isn't enough revenue generated by CFL team's to justify building their own stadium.

The new stadiums in Hamilton and Ottawa will be financed by governments. The Riders are chipping in $25 million towards their new $275 million stadium. The Bombers will pay back a $85 million loan from the city over 45 years for their new $200 million stadium (largely through a facility seat fee). Lions fans also pay a facility seat fee to help pay for the renovations at B.C. Place.

The most likely scenario is for the Argos to help finance an upgrade to BMO (which is city-owned) to bring the capacity up to 25-30,000. While the current plan is to keep BMO a soccer-only facility, Soccer Canada's original intention was to build a 30,000-seat multi-use stadium on that site for the Argos and TFC.

CSA unveils plan for Toronto stadium

TORONTO -- The Canadian Soccer Association unveiled its plans for a 30,000 seat stadium in Toronto.

At a media conference held at the National Trade Centre at Exhibition Place in downtown Toronto, The Canadian Soccer Association today unveiled its plans for a new 30,000-seat stadium complete with a FIFA Recommended artificial grass playing surface designed to ideally suit international soccer while being compatible for CFL football as well as rugby, lacrosse and other field sports. The proposed location would be at Exhibition Place in downtown Toronto.

The stadium has been designed so that it perfectly meets the playing requirements of international soccer but of other rectilinear sports as well, including CFL football, rugby and lacrosse. It will seat just over 30,000 for soccer and almost 28,000 for CFL football (allowing for removable end zone seating to accommodate the longer CFL field).

http://www.riderfans.com/forum/archi...hp/t-1937.html

The Argos had planned a new 25,000-seat Varsity stadium at U of T, but that was rejected. The Argos backed-out of another plan to build a stadium at York U. when costs ballooned. I believe the Argos have no interest in being part of the new York Pan-Am stadium being constructed.

So that leaves renovating BMO or building an entirely new stadium. Downsview is probably the most likely location, with the federal gov't donating the land. Woodbine Park has also been mentioned as a possible site.

But any new facility would have to be built in conjunction with another partner, like Rugby Canada or an international sporting event. It's probably not feasible for Mr. Braley to pay $100 million or more to build a private football stadium in Toronto.

[cromartie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_Bowl

Hey, we could have bought the Rubber Bowl for 38k last year!

I speak from personal experience when I tell you that the Rubber Bowl is worth roughly $37,998 less than they paid for it. Unless your idea of an enjoyable experience is picking shards of fiberglass out of your behind for hours after attending a game there.

Factor in differences in labor, taxation and the assumption, on my part, that the environmental impact assessments are more expensive in Ontario than Ohio and I'd still say you can get out with a comparable facility, complete with an actual training facility and a statue of Pinball Clemons, for under $90 million. I'm indifferent on whether it's at York or Downsview.