When the B.C. Lions moved into their stunning new digs a year ago, it appeared they were entering a golden era in which attendance and revenues would soar through their $560-million retractable roof.
Now it’s hard to characterize the support for the CFL team as a huge disappointment. Their average attendance of 29,326 this season is comparable to their yearly averages since 2004, and a crowd in excess of 30,000 is expected for Saturday night’s showdown against the Calgary Stampeders.
But — and you had to know that but was coming — the Leos weren’t expecting average when they moved into the Taj in Yaletown. They were expecting big numbers, 35,000 to 40,000 a game, maybe 50,000 for their marquee matchups, and those crowd haven’t materialized.
From their opening game this season, in fact, when 29,351 turned out for the Grey Cup rematch with Winnipeg, the crowds have trended toward underwhelming. That, in turn, leaves us with your basic conundrum.
On the one hand you’ve got this spectacular new facility, easily the best in the country, and a championship team to go with it. On the other hand, the needle hasn’t really moved for attendance.
This raises the question, what gives? And if you’ve got an answer, please contact the Lions’ marketing department.
“I don’t want to get down on the fans,” said cornerback Dante Marsh. “But I’ve been here for the Grey Cup and the Western finals and there’s nothing like it when this place is packed.
“We have one of the top stadiums. It’s second to none. We’re defending champions, we’re 9-4 and we can’t get 40,000 people?”
That, apparently, was a rhetorical question.
Throughout their history, Lions attendance has been wildly unpredictable but, when they moved into the new dome, it seemed the stars were lined up for the team. The facility is awesome. The team is championship-calibre.
In four years between 2005 and 2008 the Lions averaged in excess of 30,000 fans a game, topping off at 34,083 in 2008, and that seemed like the starting point for this season.
But it hasn’t happened. True, with sold-out luxury boxes, big dollars in club seats and a hike in ticket prices, revenues are likely up. But the overall attendance numbers aren’t, which is hard to explain.
“I’m a little surprised,” said team president Dennis Skulsky. “I thought attendance might have been higher. But we’re tracking above the league average.”
Skulsky didn’t have any enlightening theories about the Lions’ gates. He talked about a slumping economy. He talked about the travel time from the Valley.
He also mentioned, and this is worth noting, the Lions draw huge numbers on television. This season, they’re the No. 1 TV draw among all CFL teams, going over a million viewers for the game in Montreal five weeks ago.
This weekend’s game in Regina also drew just over 900,000, double what the Ryder Cup drew. But that hasn’t been reflected in the crowds at B.C. Place.
As for the Whitecaps, it’s a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. The Caps play to the lower bowl and team president Bob Lenarduzzi said he’s pleased with their average attendance of 19,380 fans per game.
But, on Wednesday night, on a gorgeous fall evening in the middle of their playoff drive, the Whitecaps drew under 18,000 for their game against Chivas USA.
As for the comparison to Seattle where the Sounders are averaging an incredible 42,000-plus per game, Lenarduzzi says: “Every team in the league would look bad in that comparison.”
The real curiosity to all this, as Skulsky notes, is the Lions ride to last year’s Grey Cup coincided with the move into the dome. They drew over 50,000 for that first game against Edmonton, over 35,000 for the season finale against Montreal and over 40,000 for the Western final.
Those crowds created an intimidating atmosphere at the dome. This year? We’ll leave the final word to Marsh.
“Sometimes fans don’t know how important they are as the 13th man. So get your ass in the seats.”
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/footb ... um=twitter
AGAIN DENNIS IS OUT OF REALITY ON THIS READ AND WEAP.
good article on bc lions attendance
Moderator: Team Captains
Lions price structure isn't kid friendly plain and simple. In bringing my children into a game a few years ago, I could appreciate that my ST cost approximately $35 per game each. What I did realize is that football is a ton more complicated for the young ones and it isn't until about age 12 or so that they begin to grasp more details. That is a large learning curve between the ages of 6 and 12 for a parent to fork out now $70 for that same learning line.
Besides Skulsky already has all the answers to this topic in our attendance thread already, he just hasn't grasped the reality of it.
Besides Skulsky already has all the answers to this topic in our attendance thread already, he just hasn't grasped the reality of it.
Entertainment value = an all time low
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TheLionKing
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Couldn't agree moreRammer wrote: Besides Skulsky already has all the answers to this topic in our attendance thread already, he just hasn't grasped the reality of it.
I'm currently reading the Heath brothers' book "Switch: How to change things when change is hard" (a follow-up to their previous "Made to stick: Why some ideas survive and others die") and it has helped give me a better appreciation of what the Lions are up against and why they have fallen short of their attendance expectations. In the book's parlance, they haven't done a good enough job motivating the elephant. Mr. Skulsky and his underlings might want to read it as well if they haven't already done so, because they haven't succeeded in changing the non-football attending behaviour among 10-15k people, which, let's face it, based on historical evidence, is indeed HARD.
This sort of change generally doesn't happen overnight here, and when it does it has usually been rather fleeting. You can look at practically every large (i.e. >40k) crowd in the entire history of BCP and if you understand the history you will realise that few if any of these crowds just spontaneously "happened"; they can be accounted for by a fortuitous confluence of fortunate circumstances that happened to be in place for that point in time only, and when those factors disappeared, the crowds left with them. Unfortunately, as many here have pointed out, it was the apparent assumption of the club this year based on the new digs and high-performing team that such crowds would indeed just happen, just like that, and that the inflated ticket pricing would pose no barrier to reaching that end (hahaha).
It should not be underestimated what a great challenge it is to change the behaviour of so many people, to remove barriers that impede such change, and to make that change stick: that's really the most fundamental aspect of what the Lions are dealing with here — change. Imagine for a moment, how difficult it would be to STOP the Lions' most diehard fans — e.g., some of the people on this very board — from attending games (and perhaps even team practices!). That's another type of change, and one that would be difficult to achieve. Diehard fans wear their fandom as a badge of honour and don't surrender it easily. Well, you'd best believe the change in getting those newcomers in past the gate is every bit as, if not indeed MORE difficult to achieve (notice I said newcomers here, NOT "fans" — because they're not really fans in the attendance sense until the change sticks).
Let's put aside the football nature of the discussion for a moment and think about this: how many times have you tried doing something different in the last, oh, let's say five years? Something either completely new, or that you hadn't tried in a very long time, something that was decidedly NOT a part of your regular routine? Getting more to the point, how many times did you consciously try to introduce a significant change into your regular habits? For each of these changes, how long did it take you from the time you decided to try this new and different thing, until the time that you actually went ahead and did it (i.e., were there barriers that kept you from making this change)? Now ask yourself, out of all those new things, how many of them have you permanently adopted into your regular routine? And of those permanent changes, what factors have influenced you in maintaining these changes as permanent — what made that change stick?
Unfortunately, the Lions have done just that — underestimated the challenge of change — and the results have been right before our very eyes every time we file into the stadium.
. . .
On another note, re: tv ratings. We are the leading TV draw in the league according to the article and I am certain this has been helped by our three afternoon games. Until this year, our games had always started at least 10pm in ON & QC and 11pm in the maritimes so we were artificially damping our own TV numbers all this time by forgoing much of the potential viewership from over half the country. For the good of the league, to boost its ratings and to advance its negotiating position in further tv contract talks, it ought to come as no surprise if we see more of this in the future (just like how the Canucks always bend over backwards when the Leafs come to town and play with a 4pm start).
This sort of change generally doesn't happen overnight here, and when it does it has usually been rather fleeting. You can look at practically every large (i.e. >40k) crowd in the entire history of BCP and if you understand the history you will realise that few if any of these crowds just spontaneously "happened"; they can be accounted for by a fortuitous confluence of fortunate circumstances that happened to be in place for that point in time only, and when those factors disappeared, the crowds left with them. Unfortunately, as many here have pointed out, it was the apparent assumption of the club this year based on the new digs and high-performing team that such crowds would indeed just happen, just like that, and that the inflated ticket pricing would pose no barrier to reaching that end (hahaha).
It should not be underestimated what a great challenge it is to change the behaviour of so many people, to remove barriers that impede such change, and to make that change stick: that's really the most fundamental aspect of what the Lions are dealing with here — change. Imagine for a moment, how difficult it would be to STOP the Lions' most diehard fans — e.g., some of the people on this very board — from attending games (and perhaps even team practices!). That's another type of change, and one that would be difficult to achieve. Diehard fans wear their fandom as a badge of honour and don't surrender it easily. Well, you'd best believe the change in getting those newcomers in past the gate is every bit as, if not indeed MORE difficult to achieve (notice I said newcomers here, NOT "fans" — because they're not really fans in the attendance sense until the change sticks).
Let's put aside the football nature of the discussion for a moment and think about this: how many times have you tried doing something different in the last, oh, let's say five years? Something either completely new, or that you hadn't tried in a very long time, something that was decidedly NOT a part of your regular routine? Getting more to the point, how many times did you consciously try to introduce a significant change into your regular habits? For each of these changes, how long did it take you from the time you decided to try this new and different thing, until the time that you actually went ahead and did it (i.e., were there barriers that kept you from making this change)? Now ask yourself, out of all those new things, how many of them have you permanently adopted into your regular routine? And of those permanent changes, what factors have influenced you in maintaining these changes as permanent — what made that change stick?
Unfortunately, the Lions have done just that — underestimated the challenge of change — and the results have been right before our very eyes every time we file into the stadium.
. . .
On another note, re: tv ratings. We are the leading TV draw in the league according to the article and I am certain this has been helped by our three afternoon games. Until this year, our games had always started at least 10pm in ON & QC and 11pm in the maritimes so we were artificially damping our own TV numbers all this time by forgoing much of the potential viewership from over half the country. For the good of the league, to boost its ratings and to advance its negotiating position in further tv contract talks, it ought to come as no surprise if we see more of this in the future (just like how the Canucks always bend over backwards when the Leafs come to town and play with a 4pm start).
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
Here's more on the same subject from the Province's Lowell Ullrich. LINK HERE
This point really caught my eye:
I wonder what Braley must make of this disconnect? Does he look at the club's year-over-year revenues being up and not care as much about butts in the seats, or is he holding meetings when he's in town with Skulsky and Chayka and holding their feet to the fire as to why the club's not averaging over 30,000 a game?
DH
This point really caught my eye:
COMBINED! Holy smokes.While neither Ed Willes's piece nor Lowell Ullrich's reference the localTV numbers, one has to assume that local viewers must be stoking these national ratings.....In addition, all four CFL games beat any TV sports program in the country on the weekend, and the Lions game was better than that day’s broadcast of the Ryder Cup on TSN, a UFC card on Sportsnet and Whitecaps contest on TSN2 combined.
I wonder what Braley must make of this disconnect? Does he look at the club's year-over-year revenues being up and not care as much about butts in the seats, or is he holding meetings when he's in town with Skulsky and Chayka and holding their feet to the fire as to why the club's not averaging over 30,000 a game?
DH
Roar, You Lions, Roar
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Toppy Vann
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Like the other thread has said and Rammer has so well summarized, Mr. Skulsky needs to understand it's quite simple - it's the economy combined with marketing.
Families that I speak with have limited dollars and with costs of higher education for kids higher as well as books, the ability to take the family to the game is limited. Die hards will go.
Secondly their marketing during the move to Empire simply didn't square with the reality of location and amenities and how fans were now used to getting downtown and being local realized the issues with Empire. That marketing was short sighted in that it was all about being in the great outdoors without realizing how you going to get them back in the dome now that they've been outside. Now you get discussions each game - will they open the roof? What would have made sense was to simply market the team and ask fans to support the Lions during their season back at Empire and market the crap out of how good it was going to be when the project was done.
Now they must as we said before - segment the market and go after people who live near downtown, ethnic groups and Wally won't like this - find some top ethnic talent who can play. Wally is too old school but send these unit off season to England and meet with Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and learn. Wally could also learn from Italian clubs in soccer too but the English teams can teach them about market penetration. Check out the NFL moving to Asia too. AC Milan has offices in HK and soccer schools. These boys want to sell jerseys and kit.
Families that I speak with have limited dollars and with costs of higher education for kids higher as well as books, the ability to take the family to the game is limited. Die hards will go.
Secondly their marketing during the move to Empire simply didn't square with the reality of location and amenities and how fans were now used to getting downtown and being local realized the issues with Empire. That marketing was short sighted in that it was all about being in the great outdoors without realizing how you going to get them back in the dome now that they've been outside. Now you get discussions each game - will they open the roof? What would have made sense was to simply market the team and ask fans to support the Lions during their season back at Empire and market the crap out of how good it was going to be when the project was done.
Now they must as we said before - segment the market and go after people who live near downtown, ethnic groups and Wally won't like this - find some top ethnic talent who can play. Wally is too old school but send these unit off season to England and meet with Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and learn. Wally could also learn from Italian clubs in soccer too but the English teams can teach them about market penetration. Check out the NFL moving to Asia too. AC Milan has offices in HK and soccer schools. These boys want to sell jerseys and kit.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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DanoT
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IMO the large TV audiences are a function of 40-50 inch HD TV and the fact that football, with its pauses between plays is ideal for TV replays. Add in excellent TSN production values and the casual fan has better viewing and better understanding of what is going on by watching on TV vs live viewing. BC Place has with its super video screen the best weapon possible to combat home or pub TV viewing.
While on the VIP Fans Trip to Regina I had the opportunity to discuss the above on one occasion with Clare who is part of the marketing department and chief organizer of the trip. She said that they are working on improving the use of the video screen and we discussed TSN TV hook up threw the BC Place vid screen. One of the problems is in controversial situations they don't want the officials seeing replays that could negatively affect the Lions. Using the video screen (or not using it) and keeping the roof closed to give a greater noise edge to the home team is fine if you are the coach, but imo it is more important to cater to the fans than gain a minuet edge over the competition. At least Clare acknowledged the importance of the vid screen and hopefully we will see increased use in the future.
I also had the opportunity to talk to Jackie, who is the online/digital/website person for the Lions. I pointed out to her that at McMahon Stadium, as part of the scoreboard, they have a running total of each teams total passing and running yardage and combined yardage. An excellent feature that along with other stats need to be shown to fans a BC Place. Apparently more of that sort of stuff is on the way.
Problem is imo, that unless upper management makes the above stuff a top priority, it will take a while to see any meaningful upgrades to the vid screen showings.
While on the VIP Fans Trip to Regina I had the opportunity to discuss the above on one occasion with Clare who is part of the marketing department and chief organizer of the trip. She said that they are working on improving the use of the video screen and we discussed TSN TV hook up threw the BC Place vid screen. One of the problems is in controversial situations they don't want the officials seeing replays that could negatively affect the Lions. Using the video screen (or not using it) and keeping the roof closed to give a greater noise edge to the home team is fine if you are the coach, but imo it is more important to cater to the fans than gain a minuet edge over the competition. At least Clare acknowledged the importance of the vid screen and hopefully we will see increased use in the future.
I also had the opportunity to talk to Jackie, who is the online/digital/website person for the Lions. I pointed out to her that at McMahon Stadium, as part of the scoreboard, they have a running total of each teams total passing and running yardage and combined yardage. An excellent feature that along with other stats need to be shown to fans a BC Place. Apparently more of that sort of stuff is on the way.
Problem is imo, that unless upper management makes the above stuff a top priority, it will take a while to see any meaningful upgrades to the vid screen showings.
I think this is more of a league problem than a Lions problem. The two cities with the lowest attendance are Montreal and Toronto. Vancouver's attendance is below expectations with their new stadium. The CFL in these cities is fighting against a myriad of other events and the league's profile gets smothered. Some casual fans have lost touch with the league with the media focusing on other events and the NFL. Fans should be supporting their local football team but they just don't know when the games are on (out of sight, out of mind). The media coverage is fragmented also. The percentage of people who read the daily newspapers is at all-time lows, below 50%. Where do fans turn to for their news? TV, the internet, social media? There, you're more likely to hear about Avril Lavigne's hair colour or an UFO invasion, than the CFL.
I don't believe there is much correlation between the local TV ratings and attendance at the games. There are TV Lions fans and at-the-game Lions fans, with much less crossover than one might suspect.
What can the Lions do to improve attendance? They need to reconnect with the community and engage in social media to raise their profile and find those potential fans who are no longer following the conventional media. Find more effective means to reach young fans rather than just newspaper and TV ads. With fans engaged, word-of-mouth advertising could fill the gap.
I don't believe there is much correlation between the local TV ratings and attendance at the games. There are TV Lions fans and at-the-game Lions fans, with much less crossover than one might suspect.
What can the Lions do to improve attendance? They need to reconnect with the community and engage in social media to raise their profile and find those potential fans who are no longer following the conventional media. Find more effective means to reach young fans rather than just newspaper and TV ads. With fans engaged, word-of-mouth advertising could fill the gap.
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SammyGreene
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I'm glad Ed Willes brought up the Whitecaps attendance too.
Bottom line is the novelty factor of a renovated BC Place had exactly one day of shelf life and that was the opening game against Edmonton. The first telling sign was only 30,000 showing up for the next two games despite the Lions being on a serious roll towards a first place finish. This year's bump in attendance from Empire has to do with 1. defending Grey Cup champs/winning team 2. downtown location 3. new stadium ... in that order.
The Whitecaps have gained absolutely nothing since moving into BC Place despite a much more competitive team and some pretty slick marketing.
I'm sure the Lions were banking on the new BC Place experience boosting their ticket sales and so did I.
Wonder what the average cost of a ticket the Lions are seeing these days? Must be at an all-time high. I know between the 20s it's $70 per game for season ticket holders and that's where the bulk of the 20,000 are. Throw in probably another 1,000 or so for higher end tickets between private suites, club seats and the new Club Orange. These seems to be more Skulsky's formula for the team to be profitable rather than getting more people into the stadium at a lower cost.
Bottom line is the novelty factor of a renovated BC Place had exactly one day of shelf life and that was the opening game against Edmonton. The first telling sign was only 30,000 showing up for the next two games despite the Lions being on a serious roll towards a first place finish. This year's bump in attendance from Empire has to do with 1. defending Grey Cup champs/winning team 2. downtown location 3. new stadium ... in that order.
The Whitecaps have gained absolutely nothing since moving into BC Place despite a much more competitive team and some pretty slick marketing.
I'm sure the Lions were banking on the new BC Place experience boosting their ticket sales and so did I.
Braley said as much David when he was on the TEAM prior to their last home game. Something like the team is making money and was only $50,000 off what their projected revenues were at that point of the season.David wrote:I wonder what Braley must make of this disconnect? Does he look at the club's year-over-year revenues being up and not care as much about butts in the seats, or is he holding meetings when he's in town with Skulsky and Chayka and holding their feet to the fire as to why the club's not averaging over 30,000 a game?
Wonder what the average cost of a ticket the Lions are seeing these days? Must be at an all-time high. I know between the 20s it's $70 per game for season ticket holders and that's where the bulk of the 20,000 are. Throw in probably another 1,000 or so for higher end tickets between private suites, club seats and the new Club Orange. These seems to be more Skulsky's formula for the team to be profitable rather than getting more people into the stadium at a lower cost.
Thanks for the heads up. I read that first book and really enjoyed it, so I'll have to read Switch.sj-roc wrote:I'm currently reading the Heath brothers' book "Switch: How to change things when change is hard" (a follow-up to their previous "Made to stick: Why some ideas survive and others die")....
DanoT wrote:IMO the large TV audiences are a function of 40-50 inch HD TV .....Problem is imo, that unless upper management makes the above stuff a top priority, it will take a while to see any meaningful upgrades to the vid screen showings.
Thanks, by the sounds of it you've said some things I wish I had said when I renewed my STickets last week (they got a couple rants regardless). I think a lot of it is about valuing the ST Holder & regular fan. I thought the Lions were doing an awesome job of this a few years back (during Ackles leadership, of course). Its not awful now but... Many friends with HDTV just won't bother shelling out. During the Argo game I missed the Gore touchdown because people were returning from the bathroom in the middle of the play (thank goodness for the replay screen!!!). I've 'come out' as a luddite on here before.but I realize lots of what I want (in-game stat tracking for e.g.) probably could be available via a smart phone etc... But, I don't want a smart phone and I don't want to feel there are TONS of drawbacks to seeing a game in the stadium. I love going to the games and am willing to pay to do so. I just want simple things, IMO. Having EVERY single play replayed on the screen, doesn't sound like that big a deal to me. I seem to get close to that when I watch road games on TSN. That run play that got stuffed or that close incompletion? I'd rather see them again instead of seeing which company has sponsored (sorry DRAFTED) a Lion or LETS MAKE SOME NOISE.
I agree with all you guys on here, you all bring up excellent points, i think is is everything, high ticket price, (some areas) , lack of marketing, the HD experience at home, a lot of things, even some NFL stadiums, are having a tough time selling out, give me a reason to go to BC place, the stadium experience. I hate to say this , and i am not knocking David Braily for all his excellent work with lions since 1996, when the team was on the verge of folding, but we need new OWNERSHIP, David Braily has done all he could here, it is getting a bit stale under him, need new ownership with new ideas, better sense of direction, maybe even a new president too who can tackle the attendance problem head on, and make this city a huge football town that it once was in the mid 80's, we have the team and the players to market, we are just being steered in the wrong direction, as far as i am concern Dennis Skulsky is too much of a fan not a business man that bob ackles was, no we are not going to find another Bob Ackles, but i think we can do a lot better Then Dennis Skulsky, We will average (as long as the lions stay competitive) 30,000 this year, know that is not bad, but don't you think we can do a lot better ?
I appreciate the fact that Lions' staff and players want BC Place packed and loud tomorrow. We all do. But when I read Dante's quotes in the paper about butts in the seats, and see on Twitter today that Akeem Foster is working the phones trying to get people interested in the game tomorrow, I think, "Yikes! Just concentrate on the game, guys. Let the Lions' marketing department figure out how to increase attendance."
It just kind of smacks of desperation and it gives the impression that the players are more concerned about attendance than improving on last week's effort. Maybe if Geroy was saying/doing it would be alright, 'cause he's not playing tomorrow.
And I'll bet anyone here $100 that the BC Place roof will be closed tomorrow. I just get the impression that they're looking for any psychological edge they can get and perceive that the place is louder with the roof closed (I think it's a load of hooey myself. Maybe slightly, but that opening is so small it's largely inconsequential).
DH
It just kind of smacks of desperation and it gives the impression that the players are more concerned about attendance than improving on last week's effort. Maybe if Geroy was saying/doing it would be alright, 'cause he's not playing tomorrow.
And I'll bet anyone here $100 that the BC Place roof will be closed tomorrow. I just get the impression that they're looking for any psychological edge they can get and perceive that the place is louder with the roof closed (I think it's a load of hooey myself. Maybe slightly, but that opening is so small it's largely inconsequential).
DH
Roar, You Lions, Roar
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TheLionKing
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I also think rhe roof will be closed tomorrow. I usually get an email from the Lions couple of days from the game saying that that the roof will be opened. So far, not a peep
That is crazy getting lions players to call people to go the game i mean how bush is that.
They are going to get a alright crowed tom, and also i think it is a little too late, the day before the game ?
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Man Oh Man this organization needs to get its marketing sceme together.
They are going to get a alright crowed tom, and also i think it is a little too late, the day before the game ?
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Man Oh Man this organization needs to get its marketing sceme together.