Riders vs. Lions, October 4th - Attendance/Seating

[sj-roc]

Did you take into consideration that availability of HD and just how many more fans are tuned into the local game than previously?

Of course. Which underscores my point even further. The Lions have more exposure today than they have ever had before. Yet attendance has failed to grow or even keep pace with the growth in population.

But you also have to consider that much of our pop growth is via immigration from cultures where our game is unknown. And there are also more ways to spend one's discretionary dollars (which are shrinking, BTW) in this market today than ever before. The amount of competition has also grown with that population.

[Centrum22]

Also, look at the bite that MLS is putting into the entertainment dollar.

So what? The era in which the Lions' average attendance was at its highest is also the era in which the Whitecaps were at the height of their popularity and were getting an average attendance of around 30,000 (which is ten thousand more than what they get today). In fact, in 1983 (when the Lions' average attendance was 45,799, the highest ever), 60,342 people came to see the Whitecaps play their first game in BC Place. The Whitecaps are far less a threat to the Lions today than they were during the Lions' golden age.

[Centrum22]

But you also have to consider that much of our pop growth is via immigration from cultures where our game is unknown.

First, Vancouver has always been a city of immigrants and the Lions don't face a challenge today that they didn't face in the past. Secondly, the same applies to hockey but the Canucks attendance and ticket prices have grown, not shrunk.

Which is to say what I have been saying: The Lions have failed to sell their game to a growing number of potential customers. If many of Vancouver's new arrivals are unfamiliar with North American football, then that is a challenge that the Lions have failed to meet.

[Centrum22]

And there are also more ways to spend one's discretionary dollars (which are shrinking, BTW) in this market today than ever before. The amount of competition has also grown with that population.

Which is precisely my point: the Lions are losing that competition.

[sj-roc]

Also, look at the bite that MLS is putting into the entertainment dollar.

So what? The era in which the Lions' average attendance was at its highest is also the era in which the Whitecaps were at the height of their popularity and were getting an average attendance of around 30,000 (which is ten thousand more than what they get today). In fact, in 1983 (when the Lions' average attendance was 45,799, the highest ever), 60,342 people came to see the Whitecaps play their first game in BC Place. The Whitecaps are far less a threat to the Lions today than they were during the Lions' golden age.

The NASL folded after two seasons in BCP. MLS is on better footing today. You're also neglecting the fact that the Canucks were perennial bottom feeders at the time with corresponding levels of fan support (I recall reading in Tiger Williams's book that he even lamented how Vancouver cared more about the Lions when he played here) which is most certainly not the case today.

[Big Time]

It's sad for me to admit this but the Lions seem to attract an older crowd. These are people (like myself) who have followed the team for a long time and continue to be loyal today. Where the Lions have struggled is inspiring a new generation of younger fans. To many of these types of fans, they'd rather go to the Canucks or Whitecaps because it's more trendy. I've said before that I think the Lions price schemes are way out of line. There is no reason why they shouldn't be selling upper level tickets for $20 each. Right now, even with 2 for 1 tickets aplenty, it is still bloody expensive to get new fans into the stadium. I took my son and father in law last year and even with a 2 for 1 I still paid $51 for two tickets ($16 of which was service charges!!!!). If that was regular price it would have been more.

How the Lions can attract younger fans is difficult. I believe they need to be more active on social media, more proactive in their advertising, and overall just do a better job of making the Lions seem relevant. I don't subscribe to the notion that the Whitecaps are taking fans away from the Lions. The market is big enough to support both and me going to the Lions games does nothing to diminish my interest in the Canucks (of which I am also a season ticket holder). However I think they are constrained by the fact that they are in an 8 team league that is perceived as second tier football compared to the NFL. The growth of the CFL (and the Lions) has been tremendous over the last 10 years, however there is still much work to be done, particularly with the younger generation.

[Centrum22]

The NASL folded after two seasons in BCP. MLS is on better footing today.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point. The point is that during their two years at BC Place, the Whitecaps attracted substantially more fans than they do today. Yet the Lions' attendance did not suffer during those years. Indeed, it reached its pinnacle. Thus, pointing to today's Whitecaps (who don't attract nearly as much of the market as they did in the early 80s) cannot possibly provide an excuse for the Lions' failure to match or exceed the average attendance of past eras.

[sj-roc]

The NASL folded after two seasons in BCP. MLS is on better footing today.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point. The point is that during their two years at BC Place, the Whitecaps attracted substantially more fans than they do today. Yet the Lions' attendance did not suffer during those years. Indeed, it reached its pinnacle. Thus, pointing to today's Whitecaps (who don't attract nearly as many fans as they did in the early 80s) cannot possibly provide an excuse for the Lions' failure to match or exceed the average attendance of past eras.

That's not quite true according to these figures. 1983 was indeed better than now (and anomalously higher against the rest of the listed data), but things went south in 1984.

BTW, the peak average for the Lions was actually 1986 (admittedly not a great deal higher than runner-up year 1983, 46,638 vs 45,799).

While you make some good points, I can't say I fully agree with the general thrust of your failure argument. By such logic even the Eskimos (and the whole league by extension) have "failed". They also had much higher attendances in Commonwealth's first few years than they have garnered beyond this. To be sure things were on pretty shaky ground for the Lions and the league in general during much of the financially troubled 1990s but for the most part we've pulled out of this tailspin.

IMHO much of the expectation is shaped by capacity. The Empire figures I gave this morning show, at least on the face of it, that there was never any real reason in the first place to ever expect that people would fill such a large building for the Lions over the long haul (there have only ever been something like 110 games in the league's entire history to surpass 50k and many of these are post-season). By your own admission BCP was built with an eye to attracting MLB, perhaps as much as anything else. If we'd had a 30-35k facility all these years the narrative would be much as what we keep hearing with Mtl where they have sell over 80% capacity in a 25k stadium. Few question the small absolute size of their crowds, drawn from a much larger market.

Having said all this, what's your metric for success? How many fans do we need to average before you would remove the failure label?

[Hambone]

The NASL folded after two seasons in BCP. MLS is on better footing today.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point. The point is that during their two years at BC Place, the Whitecaps attracted substantially more fans than they do today. Yet the Lions' attendance did not suffer during those years. Indeed, it reached its pinnacle. Thus, pointing to today's Whitecaps (who don't attract nearly as much of the market as they did in the early 80s) cannot possibly provide an excuse for the Lions' failure to match or exceed the average attendance of past eras.

It's a total waste of time comparing now to the first 2 years of BCP even with the recent renovations. In 1983 and 1984 the main attraction was the stadium. It was absolutely the place to go. At that point in time in Canada domed stadiums were akin to a modern day wonder of the world. Bus charters were organized and bringing football fans in from all over the southern half of the province and Vancouver Island. Whether it was Lions or Whitecaps one can probably take the average attendances in those first few years of BCP and figure 15% to 20% were there because of the facility first and event second.

[Upper Bowl]

Anyone heard any updates on attendance projections? I'd have to think we'd have seen a team news release if they were approaching 40,000 -- or even if they'd passed 35,000.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm going with a very non-scientific guess of 35,298.

[almo89]

Caravatta was on with Sekeres today and he said they hit 40k already. I wasn't sure if he was actually projecting that there will be 40k or if he heard from inside sources that they have already hit 40k. Caravatta did mention that the club is usually pretty tight lipped when it comes to ticket sales. The only media outlet that ever reports ticket sales numbers is News1130 every now and then. Team1040, who owns the Lions rights never seem to announce any solid numbers. Not sure why that is the case.

[David]

Strictly back-of-the-napkin estimate here, but it looks to me like between 36,000-37,000 have been sold.

Lower bowl capacity = about 27,500. I'd say 98% of those are occupied, with a limited number of single seats left, so let's call it 27K in the lower bowl.

Then in the upper bowl, there are 26 open sections of approx. 500 seats each. So about 13,000 more seats. It looks from the seating map that about 70% - 75% of those seats have been sold. A few sections are completely sold out, others fairly sparse.

13,000 x 72.5% = 9,425 + 27,000 = 36,425 (24 hours before kick-off).


DH

[TheLionKing]

I heard it was over 40,000

[daryldix]

I know it's been discussed in the past here, but look at the sections that have been sold out (with singles only remaining) in the upper deck...it's the $25 family zone and now the $30 tailgating zone. If the Lions offered up the new sections opened up in the upper deck for $25-30 including all fees, more seats would be sold. Thus more people would be buying their kids hot dogs, popcorn and drinks, and buying themselves $8.25 beers. I am not sure why they can't clue into this...too many egos in the office and not enough common sense. Their product alone will not sell tickets to the fringe fans. Cheap seats will.

[notahomer]

Saw what was obviously a non-commissioned advertisement on the Skytrain today.

It was an ad for StubHub (an online ticket reseller). The poster said something about being able to sit close to the dangerous LIONS, or something to that effect. I just laughed because there were no logos of the BC Lions or CFL. So you know what they are advertising but they don't ACTUALLY mention the BC Lions or Canadian football.

Bottom line? Did its job. Got me chuckling and it stood out quite clearly, IMO, that it was not approved by the Lions. Hey if it helps break the magical 40K marker.......