2012 WDF Attendance

[Buonosjanet69]

meh.... Dickenson doesn't have the tools Lulay has and Lulay is a better spokesperson, imo. Lulay is a much more exciting quarterback on the field, and a much more personable one off the field than DD

He also has an infectious enthusiasm about him, very likable and very articulate, etc... this guy only came on to the scene last year and just exploded, imo. Give him another year and he will far surpass the impact DD had on this franchise.

[Hambone]

I don't mean to dump on the great work being done here but I have to wonder why people are so obsessed about the attendance for the game in the first place. The crowd is going to be whatever the crowd is going to be. As long as they are loud and cheering for the Lions, then I don't care how many are there.

For whatever reason, people seem to think that a crowd of 40,000 shows the market doesn't care about the Lions. I thought we were past these market based insecurities. The reality is that there is a hardcore contingent of Lions fans that come to the games and it generally sits around 30,000 people. It fluctuates up or down depending on the opponent and what's at stake, but I think that's probably about what the market is in BC and that's just fine. Looking around at some of the "good" markets in the CFL, Edmonton didn't crack 40K for their labour day matchup with the Stamps, and the Stamps barely cracked 30K for their playoff game against the Riders (where supposedly their entire province shows up for each and every game home or away).

40K+ will be the biggest crowd of the year in the CFL. Sounds like similar sales numbers for the Eastern final. Those numbers are just fine and show that the Lions will have a big crowd of supporters cheering them on to hopefully another Grey Cup appearance.

You were reading my mind Big Time. Yesterday I started and stopped on a couple of posts to this thread with exactly the same thoughts you have in your opening paragraph. The market is what the market is. Lion fans seem to be getting stressed over these numbers yet are they of any more concern than are those in other cities. When it comes to playoffs the attendances in other markets are often some of the lowest of their seasons. Last year the Eskimos hosted their first playoff game in 7 seasons and it was against rival Calgary. It was their poorest gate of the season behind only the season opener against Hamilton. In 2010 after a totally sold out regular season the Riders didn't sell out was the West Semi-Final against BC. Calgary's worst attendance in 2009 was for the West Semi-Final against Edmonton. Ditto for Winnipeg in their 2007 playoff game. After averaging 27701 in the regular season they drew 22843 for the playoffs. Yet here was are griping and grumbling about what will be our best crowd of the season.

If Skulsky is killing the Lions then he has company in other organizations. Edmonton's attendance has been in slow decline every year since 2005 with only one increase blip in 2008. Their numbers are off 7500/game from '05 (34318 this year vs 41933 in 05). The only increase they've seen since '05 came in 2008. After dropping from 37870 in '06 to 36843 in '07 they popped back up 37383 in '08 before continuing back on the annual down hill trend. Calgary's numbers have eroded as well in the past 4 years. They had a spike in 2009 thanks to the temporary GC seats being in place for half of the season. In '08 they averaged 32523. Aside from 2009 every year has seen a reduction in attendance since 2008. This year's 28665 was nearly 2000 less than last year's 30601. Mosaic's capacity starting 2008 was 28800. They added a section of temporary seats part way through that season raising capacity to 30945. This year they added nearly 3400 seats. Starting with Game 4 in 2007 the sold out 38 of the next 42 games through to the end of last season. This year they had only 3 sellouts. Montreal had pretty much sold out every game at capacity-challenged Molson Stadium starting early in 2002 through 2010 when they added 5000 seats to the venerable old stadium. They filled all 25012 seats every game in 2010 and haven't sold out a game in 2 seasons since. This year The Argos, Riders and Ti-Cats led the way with average increases of 3672, 2329 and 2048 respectively. BC was next at 631 with an asterisk due to the Empire factor last year. The other 4 clubs saw attendance declines; Esks down 307, Bombers down 1580, Als down 1601 and Stamps down 1936.

[sj-roc]

We never did get that promised sales figure from Skulsky today, did we?

I checked both the Lions website and the News1130 twitter feed where they first said numbers were soon on the way. Nada.

He had to announce something in the 40,000s or it would be a major buzz kill. That's my only guess.

Which raises the question of why he bothered putting the tease out there yesterday morning in the first place if he didn't have the facts he wanted on his side.

This prob comes across more as a knock on Skulsky though it's just as much a kudos to his predecessor, but we talk occasionally on here about the little things that Ackles paid attention to while he was in charge: the little things that just gave that added touch of professionalism that we don't see as much of anymore. Add this one to the file.

[bc49]

...it should ring alarm bells if this is all the team can do (30k reg season, low 40s for WDFs) when it has everything else going for it.

What makes the WDF a poor indicator of fan interest is the out of whack pricing structure. There are only so many people willing to attend an event relevant to the cost. This number gets lower as the price gets higher and the Lions have positioned themselves at a price point that puts a substantial amount of interested parties into the 'gee i'd love to go but that's kinda steep' category.
If the stadium held 40k people the price to market ratio would be spot on for the current conditions which are extremely favorable.
However the stadium holds 54k and thus the price to market ratio is too high on price and/or too low on market.
I expect the TV ratings in the metro to be through the roof which is a better indicator of fan interest.

As a comparison check out the cost of a mid field upper deck seat at BC Place vs CenturyLink for Seahawks games.
LIONS: $98.00 CDN
SEAHAWKS: $111.24 US
I can guarantee you the average sports fan in this city will tell you they are being majorly ripped off paying that much for a Lions ticket.

[Buonosjanet69]

I don't mean to dump on the great work being done here but I have to wonder why people are so obsessed about the attendance for the game in the first place. The crowd is going to be whatever the crowd is going to be. As long as they are loud and cheering for the Lions, then I don't care how many are there.

For whatever reason, people seem to think that a crowd of 40,000 shows the market doesn't care about the Lions. I thought we were past these market based insecurities. The reality is that there is a hardcore contingent of Lions fans that come to the games and it generally sits around 30,000 people. It fluctuates up or down depending on the opponent and what's at stake, but I think that's probably about what the market is in BC and that's just fine. Looking around at some of the "good" markets in the CFL, Edmonton didn't crack 40K for their labour day matchup with the Stamps, and the Stamps barely cracked 30K for their playoff game against the Riders (where supposedly their entire province shows up for each and every game home or away).

40K+ will be the biggest crowd of the year in the CFL. Sounds like similar sales numbers for the Eastern final. Those numbers are just fine and show that the Lions will have a big crowd of supporters cheering them on to hopefully another Grey Cup appearance.

You were reading my mind Big Time. Yesterday I started and stopped on a couple of posts to this thread with exactly the same thoughts you have in your opening paragraph. The market is what the market is. Lion fans seem to be getting stressed over these numbers yet are they of any more concern than are those in other cities. When it comes to playoffs the attendances in other markets are often some of the lowest of their seasons. Last year the Eskimos hosted their first playoff game in 7 seasons and it was against rival Calgary. It was their poorest gate of the season behind only the season opener against Hamilton. In 2010 after a totally sold out regular season the Riders didn't sell out was the West Semi-Final against BC. Calgary's worst attendance in 2009 was for the West Semi-Final against Edmonton. Ditto for Winnipeg in their 2007 playoff game. After averaging 27701 in the regular season they drew 22843 for the playoffs. Yet here was are griping and grumbling about what will be our best crowd of the season.

If Skulsky is killing the Lions then he has company in other organizations. Edmonton's attendance has been in slow decline every year since 2005 with only one increase blip in 2008. Their numbers are off 7500/game from '05 (34318 this year vs 41933 in 05). The only increase they've seen since '05 came in 2008. After dropping from 37870 in '06 to 36843 in '07 they popped back up 37383 in '08 before continuing back on the annual down hill trend. Calgary's numbers have eroded as well in the past 4 years. They had a spike in 2009 thanks to the temporary GC seats being in place for half of the season. In '08 they averaged 32523. Aside from 2009 every year has seen a reduction in attendance since 2008. This year's 28665 was nearly 2000 less than last year's 30601. Mosaic's capacity starting 2008 was 28800. They added a section of temporary seats part way through that season raising capacity to 30945. This year they added nearly 3400 seats. Starting with Game 4 in 2007 the sold out 38 of the next 42 games through to the end of last season. This year they had only 3 sellouts. Montreal had pretty much sold out every game at capacity-challenged Molson Stadium starting early in 2002 through 2010 when they added 5000 seats to the venerable old stadium. They filled all 25012 seats every game in 2010 and haven't sold out a game in 2 seasons since. This year The Argos, Riders and Ti-Cats led the way with average increases of 3672, 2329 and 2048 respectively. BC was next at 631 with an asterisk due to the Empire factor last year. The other 4 clubs saw attendance declines; Esks down 307, Bombers down 1580, Als down 1601 and Stamps down 1936.

probably b/c ppl don't want to freeze their balls off in those cities.. we have a climate controlled cover stadium, no excuses here.

We also have had a championship caliber team past few years. If Lulay sticks, then we have a quarterback and RB to build this team around for years, young receiving core too.

Apples with the BC orange comparison.. our situation is ideal our city is bigger our stadium is nicer and our team is better our weather is purrfect. so where are the fans? It's gotta be the price structure as the biggest variable in this particular market

[sj-roc]

We never did get that promised sales figure from Skulsky today, did we?

I checked both the Lions website and the News1130 twitter feed where they first said numbers were soon on the way. Nada.

He had to announce something in the 40,000s or it would be a major buzz kill. That's my only guess.

Ok, we now have that hoped-for 40k figure, but they really buried it in this broader News1130 story:

http://www.news1130.com/sports/article/ ... um=twitter

News1130's weekend sports round-up
Includes the Lions' home playoff game against Calgary on Sunday
Scott Russell Nov 16, 2012 11:31:22 AM

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - There's plenty of action in store for the local sports fan this weekend.

CFL

The BC Lions continue to practice at BC Place, where they host the Calgary Stampeders in Sunday's CFL Western Division Final.

The Lions learned yesterday that they will be facing veteran quarterback Kevin Glenn and not Drew Tate. Stampeders Head Coach and GM John Hufnagel announced that Tate will miss the remainder of the season with a fractured forearm leaving the starting spot to the 33-year-old Glenn.

Lions quarterback Travis Lulay was only healthy for two of the three games against the Stampeders but won both games, tossing for 572 yards, five touchdowns and no interceptions. Lulay was also not in the lineup for Week 18's 41-21 loss at Calgary's McMahon Stadium.

The Lions will be getting healthy at the right time. The returning Leos include receivers Arland Bruce (concussion) and Geroy Simon (hamstring). Veteran offensive lineman Dean Valli is also expected to return from a knee injury. Just in case, the Lions have added rookie Matt Norman to the roster. Norman left the team in August to return to college at Western Ontario.

Over 40,000 tickets have been sold for the game. Kickoff Sunday on is 1:30 p.m.

The winner advances to the Grey Cup against either Montreal or Toronto. The Alouettes and Argonauts meet in the CFL Eastern Semi-Final at 10 a.m. Sunday.

WHL

The Regina Pats visit the Vancouver Giants in Western Hockey League action at the Coliseum. The Giants are coming off a 4-3 shootout win over Prince George on Sunday, and sit fifth place in the BC Division.

The Pats last game was a 4-0 home ice shutout over Lethbridge for their third win in their last four games but have only won just twice in their first 10 road games. Vancouver is now playing without leading scorer Marek Tverdon, who was diagnosed with a blood clot in his shoulder.

Tonight's game can be seen on Rogers Sportsnet at 7 p.m.

AHL

The Abbotsford Heat begin a five-game American Hockey League road trip tonight, visiting the Rochester Americans. The Heat will move on to face the Toronto Marlies Sunday.

The Heat will play the final three games of the road in Texas against the Texas Stars, the San Antonio Rampage and the Houston Aeros.

The Abbotsford Heat are on a roll, coming off a pair of shut outs over the Lake Erie Monsters this week at the Abbotsford Sports and Entertainment Centre. The Heat now sit atop the Western Conference standings.

Game time tonight in Rochester is 4:05 p.m.

BCHL

The Friday night BC Hockey League schedule includes the Surrey Eagles at home to the Chilliwack Chiefs. Game time is 7 p.m. at the South Surrey Arena.

[Buonosjanet69]

...it should ring alarm bells if this is all the team can do (30k reg season, low 40s for WDFs) when it has everything else going for it.

What makes the WDF a poor indicator of fan interest is the out of whack pricing structure. There are only so many people willing to attend an event relevant to the cost. This number gets lower as the price gets higher and the Lions have positioned themselves at a price point that puts a substantial amount of interested parties into the 'gee i'd love to go but that's kinda steep' category.
If the stadium held 40k people the price to market ratio would be spot on for the current conditions which are extremely favorable.
However the stadium holds 54k and thus the price to market ratio is too high on price and/or too low on market.
I expect the TV ratings in the metro to be through the roof which is a better indicator of fan interest.

As a comparison check out the cost of a mid field upper deck seat at BC Place vs CenturyLink for Seahawks games.
LIONS: $98.00 CDN
SEAHAWKS: $111.24 US
I can guarantee you the average sports fan in this city will tell you they are being majorly ripped off paying that much for a Lions ticket.

that massive tv contract really helps to keep the NFL prices reasonable, esp in a recessionary period. But yeah, the comparison really puts things into perspective. We have a massive stadium by CFL standards but have no idea what to do with it...

[SammyGreene]

What makes the WDF a poor indicator of fan interest is the out of whack pricing structure. There are only so many people willing to attend an event relevant to the cost. This number gets lower as the price gets higher and the Lions have positioned themselves at a price point that puts a substantial amount of interested parties into the 'gee i'd love to go but that's kinda steep' category.
If the stadium held 40k people the price to market ratio would be spot on for the current conditions which are extremely favorable.
However the stadium holds 54k and thus the price to market ratio is too high on price and/or too low on market.
I expect the TV ratings in the metro to be through the roof which is a better indicator of fan interest.

As a comparison check out the cost of a mid field upper deck seat at BC Place vs CenturyLink for Seahawks games.
LIONS: $98.00 CDN
SEAHAWKS: $111.24 US
I can guarantee you the average sports fan in this city will tell you they are being majorly ripped off paying that much for a Lions ticket.

Amen Tommy

[Big Time]

As a comparison check out the cost of a mid field upper deck seat at BC Place vs CenturyLink for Seahawks games.
LIONS: $98.00 CDN
SEAHAWKS: $111.24 US
I can guarantee you the average sports fan in this city will tell you they are being majorly ripped off paying that much for a Lions ticket.

Amen Tommy[/quote]

If you're Dennis Skulsky, you see this and say: "hmm. So a fan could pay $98 for a Lions playoff game or choose to stay home and watch for free? I better raise the prices even further to compensate for the loss of bums in seats".

[Hambone]

Hey all,

I wonder if there is maybe another factor at play regarding ticket sales. I haven't been to a lot of games over the last few years, but when I do go, I always sit in the upper deck. One of the observable phenomena up top is the migration of fans from the endzones to the sidelines throughout the first half. After about ten minutes into the first quarter, one can see very clearly where the ticket sales extended to (the upper sidelines tend to show an upside-down bell curve from goal line to goal line). This is when a lot of corner/endzone fans go buy a beer, appear on the 30 yard line, and then aim for five rows or so above the full-fare paying fans.

If I were one of those fans that typically buy cheap seats and then move over, (because there is so much extra capacity up top) I have probably become used to sitting in better seats than my 40 bucks warrants. But with a big crowd expected, I probably won't be able to do that so freely as before. Thus I might put off buying my cheap tickets until the weekend, when I know what the crowd is going to look like. Or, I might pony up and buy better seats than I usually do. But I think that will all happen at the last minute. If the crowd looks like a 45k crowd on Friday night/Saturday morning, I'd expect a run on the endzone seats, as 10k empty seats, mostly on the sidelines, will mean plenty of opportunity to move. If it looks like a sell out --well the same thing will happen....but those people may just buy better seats for next year.

Cheers,

James

I agree. Lots of discussion has taken place re: lack of a $25 or $30 entry point. The vibe one gets is that if the Lions created such a category with say 5000 seats each one sold is an extra fanny in the building. That in my opinion is a false economy. I believe if they did so probably 75% would not be additional sales but rather people who would've bought in at a higher price break regardless opting to buy the cheaper ticket instead. Many would then do their damndest to relocate themselves to much better seats once the game is underway. I think the portion buying a cheaper entry point seat because it is all they can afford would be far outweighed by the portion who were going anyways for the cheapest price available. Based on my admittedly unproven theory if you sold those 5000 seats at $30 the effect might only net 1250 additional customers. They may gain 5000 in sales of $30 seats but it may come at the expensive of 3750 seats @ $46 with a subsequent reduction of $22.5K in revenue.

[sj-roc]

Hey all,

I wonder if there is maybe another factor at play regarding ticket sales. I haven't been to a lot of games over the last few years, but when I do go, I always sit in the upper deck. One of the observable phenomena up top is the migration of fans from the endzones to the sidelines throughout the first half. After about ten minutes into the first quarter, one can see very clearly where the ticket sales extended to (the upper sidelines tend to show an upside-down bell curve from goal line to goal line). This is when a lot of corner/endzone fans go buy a beer, appear on the 30 yard line, and then aim for five rows or so above the full-fare paying fans.

If I were one of those fans that typically buy cheap seats and then move over, (because there is so much extra capacity up top) I have probably become used to sitting in better seats than my 40 bucks warrants. But with a big crowd expected, I probably won't be able to do that so freely as before. Thus I might put off buying my cheap tickets until the weekend, when I know what the crowd is going to look like. Or, I might pony up and buy better seats than I usually do. But I think that will all happen at the last minute. If the crowd looks like a 45k crowd on Friday night/Saturday morning, I'd expect a run on the endzone seats, as 10k empty seats, mostly on the sidelines, will mean plenty of opportunity to move. If it looks like a sell out --well the same thing will happen....but those people may just buy better seats for next year.

Cheers,

James

Interesting point, James. I posted earlier in this thread about tipping point vs procrastinators in accounting for late stage uptake surge and your point identifies some of those who would align with the procrastinator category.

[Buonosjanet69]

all this to say is that Tate is the one who emptied BC place by a few thousand with that touchdown,,,, and now he isn't even playing himself!

I selected 45-49k in the thread vote but yeah, if it were Sask, we'd be talking very close to a sellout and this thread be more irrelevant at least until the off season

[Hambone]

As a comparison check out the cost of a mid field upper deck seat at BC Place vs CenturyLink for Seahawks games.
LIONS: $98.00 CDN
SEAHAWKS: $111.24 US
I can guarantee you the average sports fan in this city will tell you they are being majorly ripped off paying that much for a Lions ticket.

Amen Tommy

If you're Dennis Skulsky, you see this and say: "hmm. So a fan could pay $98 for a Lions playoff game or choose to stay home and watch for free? I better raise the prices even further to compensate for the loss of bums in seats".[/quote]

Is that comparing apples and apples? $98 for a playoff game vs $111 for a regular season game? What would the Seahawks charge for that seat on a single game basis for the playoffs? $125? $150?

[MexicoLionFan]

So much discussion over something we have no control over...should the Lions sell out the WF under these circumstances??? Yes...will they? Probably not...life goes on...the only thing that matter Sunday is how well the Lions play...if there is one lesson the Lions brass will likely learn from this season, is to take your suggestions and make those 2nd level seats a much better price, or perhaps even package them...at the end of the day, the Lion's have a strong following across the Province and are making money...that's it...

Now can we please talk some football??? Where is Blitz?

[B.C.FAN]

Programming note: Dennis Skulsky will be on Team1040 with host Tom Mayenknecht for a full hour from 10 to 11 a.m. Saturday discussing Lions marketing.