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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby bclions16 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:14 am

I think it's easier for most Leos fans to identify with a white quarterback but Jackson is no prima donna...he's a classy, team oriented guy.


Does that mean non-white QBs are prima donnas, not classy or team oriented? Sorry being a bit tough on you, I don't for a second think you actually meant anything wrong. That said, I just think people want a "winner" regardless of colour. Buck has a certain flair, toughness, and determination that is visible in his play more so than Jarious - and that why I think fans want him to start.
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Postby Belize City Lion » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:17 pm

Blitz wrote:I think it's easier for most Leos fans to identify with a white quarterback but Jackson is no prima donna...


Please explain where this statement comes from, Blitz? In my entire life as a CFL fan I don't ever remember race being an issue in regards to who should play, especially at QB. The only times I can recall the race of QB being a topic of discussion were situations like that of Warren Moon, where we all knew that the CFL was the major benefactor of the NFL's prejudice against black QBs back then.

As someone who lives the CFL experience mostly through the internet (on boards and blogs like this) and from streaming radio, I do not enjoy the luxury of seeing televised games or nightly TV sports reports of the CFL. In other words, most of what I know about the CFL is from what I read and hear, not what I see. And what I read and hear is almost never about race.

in 2006 I attended my first live Lions game in almost 7 years (my vacation schedule never worked out for me to be in Vancouver for a home game). At that game I was surprised to see that both Ryan Thelwell and Paris Jackson were black! "Ryan Thelwell" sounded like an Anglo-Saxson or Irish name, and I just assumed (wrongly) that a guy who grew up playing football in Vancouver was probably white. But what I am really trying to point out here is that the race of a player is a non-issue to CFL fans. Last year I remember googling Kevin Glenn to learn more about this QB I had never seen play (only heard live radio and read stories about) and at the time I had absolutely no idea if he was black or white. It didn't matter to me, but the fact that I could hear about this guy for a few years without actually being aware of his race says something about the lack of importance skin colour is to the CFL fan and the media who cover the league.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Lion Guy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:45 pm

Belize City Lion wrote:
Blitz wrote:I think it's easier for most Leos fans to identify with a white quarterback but Jackson is no prima donna...


Please explain where this statement comes from, Blitz?


No kidding. This comment is just...just....wow.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Blitz » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:44 pm

I look back at who the popular quarterbacks have been with the Leos fans and, perhaps outside of Roy Dewalt, and even Dewalt didn't have much support early, and Leos fans have usually identified with a white quarterback more than a black quarterback in almost every competition. In some cases that was based upon talent. I don't believe Leos fans are racist....just that's it's easier for fans to identify with a white quarterback, especially in a situation when there is a competition for the position.

As for the statement regarding choosing with my head over my heart....it has nothing to do with Wally. It has to do with how I personally feel or felt about this decision. My heart is with Buck but my head, to begin the season, would have been to start Jarious.

I explained my reasons. My preference would have been to share the position to begin the season with Buck starting the first half and Jarious the second. However, if a starter had to be chosen to begin the season (not end the season) I would have chosen Jarious. The reason's were straight forward. I wanted Buck to get reps to begin the season but the more he plays the greater the risk of injury. Of course there is risk any time a quarterback takes the field, even for one snap, but those chances increase the more he plays.

Secondly, as a young quarterback with only a year's playing experience at the pro level, I also believe it's important for a quarterback in that situation to not have too much pressure thrust his way, when he is rusty, after only playing four games last season. I would have preferred to ease him into the starters position this season.

It looks like Buck will be the starter and while I personally would have made a different decision doesn't mean that I'm being critical of Wally. There was no wrong decision in this case and two excellent choices. My thoughts were conservative. Let a big bodied quarterback like Jackson start the season. Let Buck get game reps, knock off some game rust in successful situations and decrease his risk of injury until Champion familiarizes himself more with the CFL game.

However, I'm also very happy with Buck starting. Jarious is a better second half quarterback if we need him to come in. However, we had to go with our third string quarterback most of the way last season and I hope we don't have to be in a situation that Champion is our backup quarterback any time early this season. Therefore, as I mentioned in my previous post, we need to ensure that we protect Buck well until Champion becomes more knowledgeable and comfortable.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby footballguy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:30 pm

[quote="Blitz"]Interesting watching the news on Global night that it really doesn't appear that the Leos have made the total committment to one quarterback. Buck will be the starter for the season and will be given the football. The starting quarterback position won't change from week to week necessarily but there is no committment to one as the starter for the entire season.


I don't think you are ever committed to start the starter for the entire season if he is terrible or plays bad. Right? I don't understand why that would be mentioned. Every football team in the world has to choose the starter, but they don't say well, "we arn't totally commited to this guy cause he could get hurt or might play bad". Why would you even mention that. Sounds like an escape goat for a choice your not sure about.

If Buck is chosen to start then it would appear that they have committed to Buck. How can you try to make it sound like they have not. Every football team in the world chooses a starter, with the idea that he will finish the season. Of course they won't change week to week. If Buck gets hurt than your back up comes in. This just seems obvious not even worth mentioning. If Wally chooses Buck to start, then he chose Buck. If he chooses Jarious, then he chooses Jarious, to hopefully start the "whole" season. Unless you just screw up and suck. Then obviously you go to other options. You would never make the statement that this is the guy that will start for us no matter what. BC has a committment to all it's players, and all 3 QB's. I guess I just don't agree with the idea the Wally isn't committed to the guy that he chooses start. I believe he has proven to know what he is doing and why he is doing it. You name a starter. your fully confident. and you play football. Go Lions. Again we are all giving opinion's and these are mine. Go Lions!!! Can't wait to hear that first touchdown!!!
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Belize City Lion » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:33 pm

Blitz wrote:I look back at who the popular quarterbacks have been with the Leos fans and, perhaps outside of Roy Dewalt, and even Dewalt didn't have much support early, and Leos fans have usually identified with a white quarterback more than a black quarterback in almost every competition. In some cases that was based upon talent. I don't believe Leos fans are racist....just that's it's easier for fans to identify with a white quarterback, especially in a situation when there is a competition for the position.


Who Blitz? Who? Sure Joe Kapp is revered because he won us our first Grey Cup, but I have no idea if he ever had to battle a black QB for the starters job (most likely not). Jerry Tagge endeared himself with one exciting season leading the cardiac kids. Paopao is neither black nor white but there may have been one or two seasons when the public was mixed on who should start, but that certainly had nothing to do with which guy the fans could best relate to in terms of race. When Tim Cowan joined the Lions in 1984 Dewalt still had his critics, but I don't remember anyone arguing that the white understudy was the answer. Dunnigan over Foggie, pretty easy to see why fans loved Dunnigan. Flutie is the best ever, so he gets the love no matter if his backup was black, white, red, or green. In 1994 we had two white QBs who tag-teamed to win a championship, and I don't feel like fans ever really "related" to either guy.

So my point is, historically I can only think of 1 other situation where the Lions have had 2 legitimate #1 QBs, one who was white and one who was black, at the same time. That would be when we had Printers and Dickenson. And the amount of supporters that CP enjoyed, the number of new fans who started coming to Lions games because of Printers, the amount of people who filled these boards with pro-Printers posts, the number of people who trashed DD and still wanted CP back after he was cut from the NFL, says to me that the fans of the BC Lions have no problem "relating" to the black QB.
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Race in Football

Postby Belize City Lion » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:59 pm

Also, unless I am mistaken, there are only 2 former QBs on the wall of fame at BC Place (not counting the entire 1954 team which would include Johnny Mazur and Gerry Tuttle); Joe Kapp and Roy Dewalt. One white, one black.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby bclions16 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:01 pm

I look back at who the popular quarterbacks have been with the Leos fans and, perhaps outside of Roy Dewalt, and even Dewalt didn't have much support early, and Leos fans have usually identified with a white quarterback more than a black quarterback in almost every competition. In some cases that was based upon talent. I don't believe Leos fans are racist....just that's it's easier for fans to identify with a white quarterback, especially in a situation when there is a competition for the position.


Oh come on. So BC fans like white QBs because they are the same race as most of the fans? So they make their choice of who should win a starting position based on race, but aren't racist? No way.

As I said before, people like a "winner". I believe fans consider a QB a winner if he inspires confidence (in fans and team mates) and has some charisma or charm. Belize already mentioned some white QBs that the winner tag could be stuck on, and guess who else had that winner aura? Casey Printers. So Belize is right, BC fans will gladly back a black QB, even over an established popular guy like Dickenson. And I also contend that fans are actually colour blind - they just want to cheer the guy that's a winner.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Blitz » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:39 am

No Ordinary Joe wrote:
Blitz wrote:Steve Kruck pointed out that our Leos will not have to change any of the offence for either one. He said that Buck and Jarious were very similar as quarterbacks and that there was more similarity in their styles than differences. Buck was given the starters osition because he was more consistent. Jarious said he was disapppointed but that he was not going to have a 'pitty party' and would continue to work hard.

Hmm, interesting. I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. I think in terms of heart and the ability to play through pain that both guys are very similar, but I feel like Buck does a better job with the short and intermediate routes and Jarious is a better downfield passer. Plus, I think Buck is more comfortable to scramble and make a play with his feet and Jarious seems a bit hesitant to do so and instead checks down to other receivers so he can still make a play with his arm.

I would love to see JJ run more, the guy is built like a tank and I think would be hard to bring down in the open field, plus, he's also a very good athlete who could be elusive in he gets out of the pocket and tries to scramble for a 1st down. I honestly haven't paid much attention to the pre-season games because of work so maybe he's improved on that aspect. I think he could be a much more effective QB if he runs more. To me, that's what sets Buck apart from Jarious right now is that he's slightly more versatile, but both can win games when their name is called and that's all that matters at the end of the day.


I have to admit I was surprised by the decision that Buck would start the season. Certainly, I believed Chapdelaine would want to go with Buck but I guessed wrong that Wally would still want to begin the season with Jarious. It's been an interesting decision for our Leos but the story will probabably have a few twists and turns before this season is over.

I recognize that, on occasion, my posts go against the grain on Lionbackers. When they do, the response is often very tough on me! It wasn't easy to make the call I did on beginning the season with Jarious. I consider both Toppy Vann and Mighty Buck great Lionbacker colleagues and they are very, very passionate Buck fans. I'm a Buck fan too and had much more to lose than to gain by stating that we would be wiser to begin the season with Jarious, even though I preferred us to to end the season with Buck being our starter.

The "Who Should Be Our Starting Quarterback' on Lionbackers has been a topic on Lionbackers that has created a lot of emotion and often been very divisive, with hurt feelings sometimes the order of the day. In some ways, that hasn't changed but overall, this time, the conversation about the quarterback starting position has been much healthier than the days of Dickenson/Printers.

I was very much a Printers supporter in terms of who should be our starter when that topic was more than a consuming topic on Lionbackers. There is also no question that Dickenson was by far the favored quarterback on Lionbackers and he drew very strong loyalty by most who posted regularly on the Lionbackers site.

I believe, as a number of Lionbackers have posted, that Leos fans want the best quarterback to play, no matter what his skin colour is. However, I also believe that it's tougher for a black quarterback to garner loyalty from fans. The CFL has mostly been colour blind, with regard to black quarterbacks, in comparision to the NFL, and players like Warren Moon and many others came to the CFL and got the opportunity they couldn't get in the NFL.

Still, my experiences in college football, contained numerous examples, stories, and situations that provided me with a strong perception that it's tougher to be a black quarterback. My best friend was a black quarterback and I also knew what he went through. Black quarterbacks in the CFL have also shared that not everyone was color blind when they played up here.

The decision between Buck Pierce and Jarious Jackson was almost a coin toss for Wally. However, on Lionbackers Buck was by far the favored quarterback to start, at over 75%. The percentage on Lionbackers was around the same when Printers was here. I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.

I won't comment again on this....and you can fire away...but it's truly what I believe.

However, whomever Lionbackers favor as their starting quarterback, I also believe that Buck won the starters position in training camp fair and square, from our Leos coaching staff. This is a young guy who impressed us so much with his poise as a raw rookie, who won some big games for us in 2006, who suffered and played in pain through some tough injuries in 2007, and who must have been so disappointed last season, when a golden opportunity presented itself and disappeared in front of his eyes.

Buck came into camp with a lot of rust on him from last season, along with having to test out last season's shoulder injury. That he overcame those obstacles to win the starters position is a testament not only to his skill but also his character.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Belize City Lion » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:32 am

Blitz wrote:I was very much a Printers supporter in terms of who should be our starter when that topic was more than a consuming topic on Lionbackers. There is also no question that Dickenson was by far the favored quarterback on Lionbackers and he drew very strong loyalty by most who posted regularly on the Lionbackers site.

The decision between Buck Pierce and Jarious Jackson was almost a coin toss for Wally. However, on Lionbackers Buck was by far the favored quarterback to start, at over 75%. The percentage on Lionbackers was around the same when Printers was here. I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.


Blitz have you ever heard that saying "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!"? Your argument has gone from being being questionable to offensive.

Now without taking the time to audit the archives and determine how much support CP got in the DD vs. CP debates of 2004, 2005 (and YES even 2006 when he was under contract to the CK Chiefs), I seem to remember that CP getting as much or even more support than DD on these boards, especially in 2004 and early 2005. Many Lionbackers were huge fans of CP and his support only started to wain after CP began to show his immaturity and ego around mid 2005. Even still the cries to re-sign CP were still loud and strong right up until the February 2006 deadline for him to opt out and jump to the NFL. When he did not make the Chiefs roster in 2006 there were lot's of people on this board who were in favour of the Lions trying to bring CP back to BC. The first time I would safely agree that "Dickenson was by far the favored quarterback on Lionbackers and he drew very strong loyalty by most who posted regularly on the Lionbackers site" would be when CP got released from the Chiefs in 2007 and by now we had all seen or heard about his infamous "chicken salad" comment. At that point even most of the diehard CP backers started to come over to support DD.

As for your other comment that 75% of us would support JJ over BP if JJ was white. That's is presumptive, totally without basis, and outright insulting.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Leothelion » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:33 am

for myself, I just like Buck's short passing game moving the ball down field. I don't care if he is black or white as long as he gets the job done. If he can't, I am all for Jarious.

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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby bclions16 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:06 am

I won't comment again on this....and you can fire away...but it's truly what I believe.

So you believe Leos fans prefer Buck because he is white, end of story? In your latest post you softened your earlier comments. You added anecdotes about black QBs having a tough time back in history, in college, and with other teams - and we'll agree on those latter points. What got people fired up is that you say that Leos fans, not college fans, not Eskies fans in the 80s, not any other fans, but LEOS FANS like Buck because he is white, and don't want JJ because he is black. So to quote you once again:
I think it's easier for most Leos fans to identify with a white quarterback but Jackson is no prima donna...he's a classy, team oriented guy.
(Leos fans think black QBs aren't classy or team oriented?)
I don't believe Leos fans are racist....just that's it's easier for fans to identify with a white quarterback, especially in a situation when there is a competition for the position.
(Gosh, I hope Leos fans don't do any hiring, because when there is a competition for a job we'll just hire the white guy because of his colour.)
...on Lionbackers Buck was by far the favored quarterback to start, at over 75%. The percentage on Lionbackers was around the same when Printers was here. I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.
(Thanks for enlightening us, the debate over CP vs DD was skin colour, not incumbent vs backup. You obviously think other fans are so ignorant about football that we only look at skin colour to pick a QB.)

Your football posts always have a tinge of arrogance. Blitz knows more about football than anyone else, so you can't really call him out. Sorry, but on this topic you are completely wrong, and now just being a jerk - you simply cannot generalize saying Leos fans are racist. Don't back pedal, that's what you said several times. Of course there are racists among Leos fans, in football, and in life, but as a group Leos fans simply are not racist and don't just cheer the white guy. And yes I agree with you on one point: you really shouldn't comment on this again.

Maybe I'll get targeted for calling you a jerk, we shouldn't do that on a message board, but dude, if you insist that we are all racists, I must insist that you are a jerk.
Last edited by bclions16 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby Toppy Vann » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:57 am

Some of the comments on the race issue are making this sound like the US Presidential election but focusing in on this comment about being easier to identify with a person of the same colour as you is being taken way too far.

I am home this month but am living and working in Hong Kong mostly and am a regular poster and participant at Geoexpat.com where there are very few local Chinese posters and mostly Caucasians and Indians (as the site owner is of Indian descent). The theme of some of the threads is how hard it is to make local friends. I did meet a friend while watching soccer in a bar but I am virtually an oddity in that I now hang out with a local born and raised Hong Kong guy and people are surprised he isn't one of my business partners who are local HKers. In my apartment complex (5 towers of 68 stories each) I know from the gymn some Masters students from mainland China who too complain that local HKers won't have anything to do with them. They are isolated with their own fellow mainlanders. I ask my local HK friends and associates why this is so and they say the mainlanders are different from them. One of these mainland guys I speak to is so homesick he goes to Shenzshen just across the border every weekend to be with friends other than his university mates. It is about identification. None of us are saying we don't local HK Chinese or we wouldn't all be there but it these are realities of life.

We all agree on one thing that it these are two fine QBs and both good team players. Jarius wouldn't have lasted in football this long if he didn't suck it up and accept what he can't control while keeping focused on the job he is paid to do. It is tough to do I am sure and the BC Lions and the fans are better for it. Even though it is a job it is not always easy accepting decisions you don't like and sports is full of guys who are one breath away from a divisive comment. The important thing for this team is that they have two guys who can play with what seems like a high quality third guy who the Lions based on past experience will try and get some game time for if previous experience is any judge.

Just think of how we might have done better in BC over the years if the coaches had this orientation to more than one QB who could play and actually gave the back up better opportunities. Did Khari Jones get a fair shake at playing here or would his career have taken off far sooner if he played for Wally Buono?
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Race in Football

Postby Lion Guy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:18 am

Belize City Lion wrote:
Blitz wrote:I was very much a Printers supporter in terms of who should be our starter when that topic was more than a consuming topic on Lionbackers. There is also no question that Dickenson was by far the favored quarterback on Lionbackers and he drew very strong loyalty by most who posted regularly on the Lionbackers site.

The decision between Buck Pierce and Jarious Jackson was almost a coin toss for Wally. However, on Lionbackers Buck was by far the favored quarterback to start, at over 75%. The percentage on Lionbackers was around the same when Printers was here. I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.


Blitz have you ever heard that saying "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!"? Your argument has gone from being being questionable to offensive.

Now without taking the time to audit the archives and determine how much support CP got in the DD vs. CP debates of 2004, 2005 (and YES even 2006 when he was under contract to the CK Chiefs), I seem to remember that CP getting as much or even more support than DD on these boards, especially in 2004 and early 2005. Many Lionbackers were huge fans of CP and his support only started to wain after CP began to show his immaturity and ego around mid 2005. Even still the cries to re-sign CP were still loud and strong right up until the February 2006 deadline for him to opt out and jump to the NFL. When he did not make the Chiefs roster in 2006 there were lot's of people on this board who were in favour of the Lions trying to bring CP back to BC. The first time I would safely agree that "Dickenson was by far the favored quarterback on Lionbackers and he drew very strong loyalty by most who posted regularly on the Lionbackers site" would be when CP got released from the Chiefs in 2007 and by now we had all seen or heard about his infamous "chicken salad" comment. At that point even most of the diehard CP backers started to come over to support DD.

As for your other comment that 75% of us would support JJ over BP if JJ was white. That's is presumptive, totally without basis, and outright insulting.


And quite irrelevant. Good Lord.
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Re: Well Jarious or Buck

Postby TheLionKing » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:44 am

Blitz wrote:I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.



There have been numerous posts about DD vs. Printers, Pierce vs. Jackson, newspaper articles, television and sports talk shows and you're the first to bring up the race factor. I'm very disappointed. Buck Pierce is a "feel good" story. Undrafted by the NFL. Drove overnight to Portland to be at the Lions free agent camp. Gets signed, comes to camp and made the team. Consummate team player, didn't rock the boat. Played well when given the opportunity. Resigns a multi year contract. Gets injured. Rehab the off season. Comes to camp and wins the starting job.
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