2014 Gas/Property Tax Whining

Must be 18 to enter! Talk about anything but Football

Moderator: Team Captains

User avatar
Robbie
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8380
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:13 pm
Location: 卑詩體育館或羅渣士體育館

Three years ago, there were a pair of very active threads about Carbon Tax:

Carbon Tax - 34 posts
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14854

Carbon tax whining - 108 posts over 8 pages
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15417

So with this recent new gas and property taxes imposed in Metro Vancouver, I would think this would be a popular thread as well.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Metro+ ... story.html
Metro Vancouver mayors reluctantly voted Friday to raise regional gasoline and property taxes to help pay for a $700 million capital plan that includes construction of the long-awaited Evergreen line.

In a clearly divided meeting of the region's Translink Mayors Council, politicians said they hated the idea of bumping up taxes to pay for a system desperately in need of improvement.

But the majority said they also felt they had no alternative, since the plan would move forward a variety of goods-movement and transit initiatives with only a limited number of funding options at their disposal.

In approving the gas tax hike, the mayors paved the way for the province to begin construction of the $1.4 billion Evergreen Line, which will service Coquitlam and Port Moody. Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson said that initiative also advances his city's hopes for a new rapid bus system down the Broadway Corridor.

The approvals come with the expectation that the province, TransLink and the Metro mayors' council will begin discussions on a new governance model that will bring equity back into some of the decisions around regional transportation planning.

Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts said she didn't like the idea of raising gas taxes again or bringing in yet another increase in property taxes, but those will help advance the cause for a new governance model that would have stable, long-term funding.

Not everyone agreed. Some of the stiffest opposition came from Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan, who reminded the council that two years ago they passed a motion saying they would not raise property taxes any more. A former BC Transit chairman in the 1990's, Corrigan said the province has ignored the region's choice of transportation upgrades in favour of politically useful ones of their own.

"You can't go on like this being treated like sheep. You have to stand up. You have to have your own Boston Tea Party," he said.

But his entreaties fell on deaf ears. Using a weighted vote based on population, the mayors voted 81 to 34 in favour of the increases. The vote by municipalities was 15 in favour and six against.

Under the proposal, regional gas taxes will go to 17 cents from 15 next April. Starting in 2013 Translink could also get an average $23 more per year from property owners, who already pay an average of $250 a year for transportation initiatives. The property tax hike was portrayed as a temporary "stopgap" measure for two years in order to allow TransLink to get other funding sources in place, including access to the provincial carbon tax and a new road pricing strategy. The gas tax initiative still needs provincial legislative approval.

Pitt Meadows Mayor Don MacLean said he doubted the "temporary" property tax hike will ever be rescinded.

" The reality is that once the property tax in place it will be there forever," he said.

Port Moody Mayor Joe Trasolini, who is not running for re-election, said he was grateful the vote will mean the Evergreen Line will now go ahead.

Three years ago his municipality brought in no-growth policy in its Official Community Plan until the line is approved. Now, he said, he'll propose lifting that restriction.

"Growth is going to come to our region now," he said. "I think the community has paid its dues. We need this now."

TransLink officials said they expected the province would issue requests for proposals for the line by the end of the year.
From CBC:
Metro Vancouver mayors have voted to pass a 2-cent per litre gas tax hike to pay for expanded TransLink services, at a meeting in Burnaby on Friday morning.

The tax is meant to meet the costs of new TransLink services in the region, including the proposed Evergreen Line to the Tri-Cities area.

The vote passed easily with an 81 to 34 majority. Larger cities such as Vancouver and Surrey getting a greater share of the votes in the weighted voting system.

The vote follow a public statement last week by the mayors of seven of municipalities in Metro Vancouver representing 70 per cent of the region's population that they would be supporting the tax, despite the looming civic elections in November.

But opposition to the motion was lead by Richmond Mayor Macolm Brodie, who said he objected to another part of the motion which opened the door to future property tax increases for Metro Vancouver residents.

Drivers in Metro Vancouver alreay pay a motor fuel tax of 23.5 cents per litre on top of the B.C. carbon tax, which rose to 5.56 cents per litre in July 2011 and will reach 6.67 cents a litre on July 1, 2012.
Last edited by Robbie on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
mrbigglesworth
prospect
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:30 am

I have no problem with increasing gas taxes to pay for public transit. So many people seem to think it is a right to own and drive a car - it is not. The true cost (economic and environmental) of driving a car is primarily borne by society at large, not by the individual driver. Anything that shifts the balance back towards a system where drivers pay more is good in my eyes. In this case, transit users subsidize car drivers (through taxes paying for roads and bridges) and now drivers are going to pay money back to transit through additional gas taxes.
User avatar
pennw
Legend
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:50 am
Location: Chilliwack

mrbigglesworth wrote:I have no problem with increasing gas taxes to pay for public transit. So many people seem to think it is a right to own and drive a car - it is not. The true cost (economic and environmental) of driving a car is primarily borne by society at large, not by the individual driver. Anything that shifts the balance back towards a system where drivers pay more is good in my eyes. In this case, transit users subsidize car drivers (through taxes paying for roads and bridges) and now drivers are going to pay money back to transit through additional gas taxes.
Uh ... no , you are dead wrong .Drivers have been paying far more than their fair share for far to long already . Gas has been heavily taxed for many years and that was supposed to be a ROAD tax , but has long been misappropriated into general revenue instead of it's rightful usage . It is transit users that have never paid anywhere near realistic and fair rates . It is transit that should see fair rates increased to cover their own expenses , instead of tryinig to get others to pay their way . Why should I pay your way ?? As a driver I have been paying more than 110% of my way , not 'society at large' . And what gives you the right to deam what is a right or not anyway ?
Gerry
Legend
Posts: 1040
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

mrbigglesworth wrote:I have no problem with increasing gas taxes to pay for public transit. So many people seem to think it is a right to own and drive a car - it is not. The true cost (economic and environmental) of driving a car is primarily borne by society at large, not by the individual driver. Anything that shifts the balance back towards a system where drivers pay more is good in my eyes. In this case, transit users subsidize car drivers (through taxes paying for roads and bridges) and now drivers are going to pay money back to transit through additional gas taxes.
And some people seem to feel that being able to ride a transit system heavily subsidized by non transit users is a "right" as well.

I'm in favour of public transit and I don't mind the additional tax on gas to help pay for it, but I'm not in favour of your revisionist opinions on the matter.

The fact is that society is largely made up of drivers. They do the bulk of the work, make the bulk of the money, and pay the bulk of the taxes. Those roads and bridges that they pay for with their many taxes are also used to deliver goods and services to transit users.

I support public transit because it relieves the strain on roads for truck and commercial traffic that cannot use public transit. The more that commuters get away from private vehicle use, the more that roads and bridges will need to be paid for from general revenue and taxes that are paid by commercial traffic, and all of that will mean a greater shift to transit users paying for that through prices on commercial goods and those general taxes. In other words, The regular guy that now drives to work will no longer be paying through the nose in gas taxes, ICBC levies, etc. because he will become a transit user and his burden will be shared by today's whiny entitled transit user who doesn't seem to know the true cost of the service he is using because he likely isn't paying for it.
Enough is enough.
mrbigglesworth
prospect
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:30 am

jcalhoun wrote:Yeah.

Mr Bigglesworth might be a legit poster, but I doubt it. ... I may be unfair here, but I smell a self-promoting hack with a political agenda. Of his three posts, two were today, and two were overtly political. I don't mind chatting politics on this site (and do so a fair bit). I love some of the ongoing arguments I've had with people with differing political views (Toppy Vann for example), but when a poster only pops up when there is a political issue? I think it stinks of the attempt to manipulate media.
Actually, I am a legit poster. I just rarely post because I normally read the boards on my iPhone (difficult to post on) and I rarely turn on my desktop computer at home anymore. I'm a professional engineer, not a "self-promoting hack," and a Lions seasons ticket holder since '97. I happened to see the gas/property tax post and decided to log in to reply because this is an issue I'm very passionate about.

The fact is, my tax dollars (and yours) pay for schools, health care, roads, transit, etc. - I'm fine with paying for teachers, nurses, etc. but I don't like the idea of subsidizing someone else's driving habits. If people lived close to where they work, or car pooled, this wouldn't be a big issue, but most people don't. When someone pays for gas and car insurance, they are only paying a small part of the financial cost of the car because there is still all of the roads and infrastructure. Check out the article in today's Sun http://www.vancouversun.com/Pedestrian+ ... story.html: in the next three years we'll spend $1.75 B on highway and road maintenance, $1.37 B on the Port Mann expansion, and $1.13 B on transit. Our tax dollars are paying for all of these things. I would argue that accessibility to transit is a need, whereas having a personal vehicle to drive (70% of the time as a single commuter) is a privilege.

The other issue that no one ever seems to consider when factoring the true cost of driving a car is the environmental damage. Society pays for the "costs" of the pollution. From the time the raw materials are extracted from the earth, to when the car is on the road, to the time the car ends in a wrecking yard, the driver is off the hook for any environmental damage. There is no debating the environmental and health impact of vehicles and vehicle emissions, but this factors nowhere into the cost of car ownership in North America (it is different in some European countries).

Anyway, you can choose to ignore my points and dismiss me as a "hack", but the fact is that we are on an unsustainable path and until society as a whole starts to make changes we're just making life progressively more difficult for the next generations. I welcome the new vehicle taxes because in my mind they begin to rebalance the equation.

And now back to football...
User avatar
agent2
All Star
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:25 pm
Location: Vancouver

We need to look at spending too... do we need to build the most expensive LRT system in the world? As an independent sales agent, I find Vancouver is almost taxing me out of business. My personal expenses last year were $22,000 and a lot of it was the essential cost of running of a vehicle. Politicians have to be very careful when asking for more and more money. Gas taxes (and parking costs, ICBC, increased travel time etc.) are a double whammy and have to be added to the cost of goods. And what about the increased number of people travelling across the border to buy gas and goods? Politicians have to remember that some tax is better than none and that's what will happen when people get creative (or retire early like me). We punished the BC government by voting out the HST and now they will cut municipal spending and look for ways to get money somewhere else, not to mention recreate another big government department by hiring back the PST staff. :bang: I wonder how many teachers and other government union members voted against the HST and now are asking for huge wage increases... in a down economy yet. You can't square that circle. A recent news article showed more people are leaving the province than ones coming in, over taxing just adds to that imbalance.
User avatar
KnowItAll
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:32 pm
Location: Delta

on this issue alone, its not big deal. We are already paying so much for gas that an extra 2 cents is nothing. If that is gonna make or brake anyone, then maybe trade the suv in for a mini, or a bicycle.

as for an extra 23 property tax, if I read that right, that is nothing again on top of what we already pay. Anyone that can afford a home within the GVRD can afford an extra 23 a year.

Much ado about nothing

I am much more concerned about what they actually do with the money, cause most of what we already pay is misused.
Every day that passes is one you can't get back
User avatar
agent2
All Star
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:25 pm
Location: Vancouver

This is where you are not a know-it-all and showing your typical Canadian, bend over and take it again attitude. Yeah we live in a great place and yeah our house prices are high (great if you own one, but do you have kids?). This is the attitude so many BCers have when it comes to over taxation and that's why they keep on jamming us, chip away, chip away. Sure, singularly it's not much but take a look at your property tax bill now and compare it to one from ten (or twenty) years ago, those little $23ers add up after awhile. And the government is so addicted to gasoline tax, answer me this mr. know-it-all... what will they do when half the people drive electric cars?
User avatar
KnowItAll
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7458
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:32 pm
Location: Delta

jcalhoun wrote: Just wait until next year when we get to tack on an additional $3.oo-6.oo each way for each trip across the new Port Mann bridge.

Anyway....

Cheers,

James
now that I disagree with, specially since there is no toll on sea to sky.

I understand that after they have done whatever about pettullo, they will be tolling that as well. That leaves the tunnel and alex fraser. Living in north delta, I dread the expected increase in traffic on top of the already increasing surry traffic. I almost wish they would then toll both the tunnel and the alex fraser just to keep the extra traffic away.

They had the chance 30-40 yrs ago to start making each city as self contained as possible so that there would be so many of each type of business and job for so much population. A limit on new housing permits without creating a required amount of additional local jobs, etc. Along with incentives for businesses to move south of the river to the various cities and incentives to hire local as much as possible. With vision, forsight, and proper planning, a great many people could be walking or biking to local jobs. Cross river rush hr traffic could have become a fraction of what it is. There would be less need for expensive translink projects and bridge expansion and increased taxes. However, the way things are, we have to pay for what is needed, or a large part of our citizens will continue to *beeotch* and complain. Now, there is no easy fix. Now whatever the govt does, it is not going to be popular. Previous govts, including and specially Campbells, have left us in dire straights in many ways. There is no way to make anything better, without paying more.

What if those that care little for sports, or at least anything that needs the dome. What if they started to complain that instead of higher taxes, that money should have been used for translink, etc. They would have a point.
Every day that passes is one you can't get back
Gerry
Legend
Posts: 1040
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

jcalhoun wrote:Hey all,

Actually, Know it all, this is not an insignificant cost to the individual. 23.oo in average additional property taxes a year is not that much, but the .02cents a litre really begins to add up.

My father keeps track of everything, and writes down everything, so I asked him about his gas usage in 2010. "Just a minute..." and then he starts reading from the stats sheet.

My father owns a Ford Ranger pickup truck. It's a V6, but still one of the more economical models on the market. His daily commute from Poco to Surrey was 23.6 km. That's not outrageous, nor is his vehicle. In 2010 he used 2147.187 liters of fuel. That's an additional 43.oo dollars in taxation a year. With the property tax, that's $66.oo. That's one dollar more than a redzone ticket to a Lions game.

Now is that $66.oo going to break him, or anyone? No, certainly not. But it's important to point out that he won't be getting anything for that increased taxation, and nor will most people. Essentially our more enlightened overlords have decided to take the equivalent of a good Lions' ticket out of the average person's pocket. In tough economic times, these things really begin to add up. And it's going to hurt the Lions.

Just wait until next year when we get to tack on an additional $3.oo-6.oo each way for each trip across the new Port Mann bridge.

Anyway....

Cheers,

James
It's not correct to say that your father gets nothing for the increased taxation. He gets the same thing I get:

Less vehicles on the road.

Better bus service throughout the lower mainland.

Cleaner air.

I use Skytrain very infrequently, but I do benefit by it because if all the people who used it were to drive, the roads would be a bigger mess than they are now.
Enough is enough.
Gerry
Legend
Posts: 1040
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

I agree with KIA on the bridge tolls. Instead of tolls on 2 bridges, there should be a lower fee toll on all bridges, IMO.

In fact, if there were bridges that should not be tolled, it should only be the Port Mann and the Iron Workers because they are highway 1, part our national highway system. Again, IMO. I'm surprised the feds let us toll the Port Mann. I hope somehow that they will not allow it, or that there is some way to exempt national tourist and commercial traffic. I think it's embarrassing to charge our visitors a toll to cross the river into Vancouver.
Enough is enough.
User avatar
Sir Purrcival
Hall of Famer
Posts: 4621
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Comox Valley

Gerry wrote:
jcalhoun wrote:Hey all,

Actually, Know it all, this is not an insignificant cost to the individual. 23.oo in average additional property taxes a year is not that much, but the .02cents a litre really begins to add up.

My father keeps track of everything, and writes down everything, so I asked him about his gas usage in 2010. "Just a minute..." and then he starts reading from the stats sheet.

My father owns a Ford Ranger pickup truck. It's a V6, but still one of the more economical models on the market. His daily commute from Poco to Surrey was 23.6 km. That's not outrageous, nor is his vehicle. In 2010 he used 2147.187 liters of fuel. That's an additional 43.oo dollars in taxation a year. With the property tax, that's $66.oo. That's one dollar more than a redzone ticket to a Lions game.

Now is that $66.oo going to break him, or anyone? No, certainly not. But it's important to point out that he won't be getting anything for that increased taxation, and nor will most people. Essentially our more enlightened overlords have decided to take the equivalent of a good Lions' ticket out of the average person's pocket. In tough economic times, these things really begin to add up. And it's going to hurt the Lions.

Just wait until next year when we get to tack on an additional $3.oo-6.oo each way for each trip across the new Port Mann bridge.

Anyway....

Cheers,

James
It's not correct to say that your father gets nothing for the increased taxation. He gets the same thing I get:

Less vehicles on the road.

Better bus service throughout the lower mainland.

Cleaner air.

I use Skytrain very infrequently, but I do benefit by it because if all the people who used it were to drive, the roads would be a bigger mess than they are now.
All of those are questionable.

1. better bus service. Do you really believe that is going to happen. Next time transit goes on strike or negotiates a higher wage for drivers and the like, there will go some of this newly acquired revenue. They have been trying for "better" bus service for decades, do most people think they have been successful? I would highly doubt it.

2. Less vehicles - as population goes up, so do the number of vehicles on the road. Transit may stem that tide a little but do you really think the total number of cars on the road are going to lessen in the next decade? Again, highly doubtful. If that was the case, then opponents to the improvement of Port Mann wouldn't be talking about saturation in 20 years after completion.

3. Cleaner air. Again doubtful. for reason 2 but don't forget that a diesel buses also put pollutants into the atmosphere as well. The only way we are going to get cleaner air is if we stop burning fossil fuels. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Instead of this Port Mann extension, the better step would have been to put ground based light rail down the centre of the Freeway with diversions to population centres. It would have been cheap and had a lot more scaling ability. The need to start doing this all over the lower mainland. Recently tried out the Portland system and it was clean, efficient and much nicer than the bus. We had this in the 20's, but short sighted politicians and the like have pissed all the potential away in favour of cars and buses. It is going to cost us all big time so if they are going to claw more of our hard earned money away, then I would like some sense that it is going to be used correctly. Buying more buses isn't the answer either so far as I am concerned. They are expensive, inefficient and subject to the same pains that drivers have to deal with when traffic is heavy.
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
Post Reply