Race in Football

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Belize City Lion
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Blitz wrote:[
Everyone can read my posts and what I said. I have never said 1) Leos fans are racist..I said the majority identify more with a white quarterback..
You are correct Blitz, that is exactly what you said; that the Lions fans on this board have voted for BP to start because they more easily relate to a white QB. And that's what I am still calling you out on. Your extended essays on racism in Canada, the CFL, and the stands of BC Place still do nothing to support your original argument; that BP got the most votes in this thread's poll because WE here at Lionbackers can relate better to a white QB.

No one here is trying to start a QB controversy. And the only one who is trying to make this about race is you. So why don't you just admit that opinion was completely without merit, apologize to those of us you have accused of preferring BP based on race, and let's move on from there?

Now if you want to collect data to support your argument then why not start a new poll on whether Lionbackers "better relate" to a white QB. I don't think the results will surprise anyone except you.
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Blitz wrote:
bclions16 wrote:Blitz, please read my replies to your posts. You are twisting the argument, slightly moving your rebuttal, as if you didn't say exactly what you did, and as if I didn't call you to account accurately for what you said.

No one ever said all Leos fans are purrfect and that racism doesn't exist! Don't rebut an argument no one ever made! In fact I already made that point clear, so who exactly are you arguing against? Or are you trying to come to terms with your own thoughts on this matter? You described Leos fans as generally racist, and we can all read this thread to see it. It takes a big man to admit he was wrong. How about giving up on the long winded posts and just admitting that you were quite offensive?

You said Leos fans - not some fans, not NFL fans, not CFL fans, not some other random group - you specified Leos fans, yes Leos fans as being racist by picking a QB because he is white. YOU ARE WRONG. You mad ea blanket generalisation. Part of any group may be racist, but Leos fans as a whole are not. Period.

The other far secondary problem with this tiff is that you feel so superior in your football knowledge, that you defend your knowledge and your pick of JJ ("JJ will be the starter!!") by accusing all other Leos fans of being so massively ignorant of football, that they must rely on savage bigotry to pick who they cheer for!

Grow up.
I'd love you to say it to my face because you'd only say it once...if you ever had the courage to say it at all!!
Everyone can read my posts and what I said. I have never said 1) Leos fans are racist..I said the majority identify more with a white quarterback...there is a difference 2) I have never said all other Leo fans are massively ignorant of football in any way...those are your words.

I don't know you...I have never made a personal comment to you....You want to pick a fight...so name it!!
I'm not sure the bolded statement above does much for your credibility in terms of debating an issue.

Take a deep breath and try and understand that what you stated, and you did state it quite clearly, regarding Leos fans preferring one QB to another because they can relate better to a white QB, is regarded here by some as not only an offensive statement but an ignorant one as well. You alone cannot speak for Leos fans as a whole; no-one can.

I like BP...I like JJ, although he makes me cringe sometimes....but that is his style of play, not the colour of his skin.

My 2 fav Lions QB's, Roy Dewalt and Dave Dickenson...where does that put me??????
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bclions16
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Blitz wrote: I'd love you to say it to my face because you'd only say it once...if you ever had the courage to say it at all!!

Everyone can read my posts and what I said. I have never said 1) Leos fans are racist..I said the majority identify more with a white quarterback...there is a difference 2) I have never said all other Leo fans are massively ignorant of football in any way...those are your words.

I don't know you...I have never made a personal comment to you....You want to pick a fight...so name it!!
Blitz, I apologize for any personal comment I made to you.

At the heart of the matter is this:
Blitz thinks JJ should be the starter based on football.
Blitz think Leos fans want BP as the starter because he is white.

No you didn't actually state "Leos fans are racist", but an accusation of racism was was clearly described and implied over and over.
I have never said 1) Leos fans are racist..I said the majority identify more with a white quarterback...there is a difference
Not exactly, in fact, you added that the fans will choose a QB based on race ESPECIALLY if there is a competition - and that's called discrimination. Here's your quote:
...it's easier for fans to identify with a white quarterback, especially in a situation when there is a competition for the position.
So no, there is in fact no difference in what you are describing.
2) I have never said all other Leo fans are massively ignorant of football in any way...those are your words.
No, you didn't say those words, but "in any way" you did in fact say Leos fans and people on this site chose Buck based on race rather than football related reasons. Sorry, but it's very offensive to both put yourself forward as a football expert and belittle the rest of Leos fans by saying they pick their favorite players just by race. Only a massively ignorant football fan would pick that way.
You went on to describe a bizarre race reversal scenario:
I really believe, that if we switched colours, and Buck was the same player and black and Jarious was the same player but white, Jarious would have been the choice on Lionbackers by a 75% margin. No one will agree with that but I still believe it to be true.
In that quote you clearly describe people on this site being incapable of choosing a QB for any other reason than race. This is what I mean about twisting the argument. No you didn't come out and say anyone was racist, but you described Leos fans as having racist tendencies and making choices based purely on racial discrimination. Same thing! If a football fan could only choose a player by race, then they would be a massively ignorant person and fan. Everyone agree?

Say I owned a team, and hired you as a coach over a black candidate. Here's an exchange from the press conference announcing the hiring:
REPORTER: "What was it that made you hire Blitz as your coach?"
ME: "Well, I'm white, and he's white, and I just seem to identify better with a white guy than a black guy."
REPORTER: "It wasn't that Blitz is a better coach?"
ME: "Skin colour was the basis for my choice."
REPORTER: "What if you switched races on the coaches, and Blitz was black?"
ME: "I wouldn't have hired Blitz if he was black, I would have hired the other guy if he was white."

Of course this isn't about hiring anyone, and there aren't reporters covering Leos fans choosing one QB over another, but the sentiment is exactly the same. The thought process is exactly the same. It's racism. Blitz, don't you see??

Blitz, I probably agree with you that people can identify with people of similar backgrounds. But you described a scenario where race was the only criteria, and you went over the top "switching races", and thereby described the fans here as being perfectly incapable seeing anything beyond race! Football doesn't factor into the fans decision. Personality doesn't factor into the fans decision. Only skin colour factors into the fans decision! You said the vast majority of fans would switch QB allegiances if the QBs could switch race! That is very insulting to the majority of fans who are tolerant and non-discriminatory people!
I don't know you...I have never made a personal comment to you....You want to pick a fight...so name it!!
You described me along with many others as racist, and that is far worse then me telling you to grow up. I was offended. I forgive and get over things quickly, but would never fight to settle a debate.
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bclions16
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box1120 wrote:I don't consider myself articulate enough to really participate in this debate but I do appreciate it.
I'm sure many on this board also appreciate what Blitz has contributed here; his "coaching" of the Lionbackers team a couple of years ago was the most hilarious writing I have ever read on a web page. Obviously he doesn't need any help to defend his position but in bringing forward his insight into the submerged racism that exists in this society and even on this board seems to leave a lot of people in denial. A great contribution Blitz, thank you.
We all agree that racism exists in life and football. I simply don't agree with Blitz' point that a vast majority of Lions fans and Lionbackers want Buck to be the starter based solely on his skin colour.
And yes, Blitz does add a lot to the site, but needs to give us more credit than he does on this topic.
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Toppy Vann
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Today's Blitz section in The Province is a terrific read today and is must read by all with a good story by Ed Willes featuring Wally Buono on the Hufnagel curtain - closing practices. Wally's concern is fairness and he uses his starting QB as an example. Willes replies that viewing the Lions at practice to find out who is the starter would mean you'd have to look very closely. but it is a good point. I doubt they closed practice in Calgary to ensure the Lions didn't know that double D is starting. It isn't likely although Hufnagel makes it clear that he is looking for more improvement in Burris this year. Not sure if it is fair to read more into in it than that.

Heard 1040 interview Jeff Garcia yesterday and he extolled the 5 years with Calgary as 5 of the best years of his life and how he still keeps in touch with people in the CFL and Canada. Not sure if he sold his Calgary restaurant??? He mentioned that it was he, Dickenson and Burris together with the Stamps all those years ago.

Willes' larger concern is mine. Locking out the media is bad for media and fans who are both stakeholders of the league and all its interesting and quirky things that he goes on to list. The Lions D is front cover.

The Argos got the NFL story and Pinball clearly states that the franchise in Toronto has challenges beyond just the CFL to be healthy and strong and that story is a must read to see how threatening the NFL is to that franchise and the overall CFL. Canadians should be demanding to have Rogers telecom business open up wide open, then lets bring in the NFL. Argos are not going to target the fans in 18 to 30 any more but go after their moms and dads in face of the NFL putting money into the high schools. This is a very serious issue that I hope fans aren't sleeping on.

The racist slant in this thread has taken on Shakesperian proportions and should be moved to a new thread possibly titled 'Much Ado About Nothing'. If you want to discuss this issue perhaps familiarizing yourself with the fourth installment of the "Career Advancement in Corporate Canada: A Focus on Visible Minorities" series which concludes that visible minorities in Canada "believe they need to 'Canadianize' themselves in order to get ahead." This is covered in The Province Money section today.

If you were a black respondent well they complain that they feel "they were perceived as being unskilled and not motivated to work". Now these are perceptions and that doesn't necessarily make it a fact no more than it does declaring Blitz's comment to be a call on Lions fans as being racists. To some perception is reality but let's face it - there is no immaculate perception.
http://www.catalyst.org for the report.
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bclions16
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Now these are perceptions and that doesn't necessarily make it a fact no more than it does declaring Blitz's comment to be a call on Lions fans as being racists.
I don't think Blitz actually believes all Leos fans are racist. But telling us that the majority pick Buck solely because he is white, while Blitz picks based on football, well, that is insulting, and is accusing us of making a racist decision while he is above it. Of course we all have many biases including racial ones, but if one only uses skin colour to judge a person, well that's racist. I believe fans want Buck based on his play and personality, not anything to do with white or black.
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bclions16
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double post in error
Last edited by bclions16 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bclions16
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Well at the risk of belabouring the point, Blitz to be factual didn't say what you are suggesting he said. He was suggesting that it is easier to identify with a person of your own ethnic background and that perhaps was why the vote was 70 percent in favour of BP starting.
Actually he did. In his elaborations he states if BP and JJ reversed race, he said 75% of fans would be for JJ. He's suggesting at least 50% of fans will pick a QB solely based on colour. He strangely supports his argument by citing evidence of racism against other black QBs.

Blitz' contradiction is that he says up and down that he isn't calling anyone racist, but describes fans making a choice based only on race! All I'm saying is that the #1 reason most fans want Buck has nothing to do with race. Perhaps it's in a list of reasons for some, but it just isn't the primary or only reason! Is it???

I think I'm on topic, while you're going off. Maybe we should talk race issues in the pub. I'm sticking with "Well Jarious or Buck" and the reasons why.
Last edited by bclions16 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Real simple solution as to why BP was chosen in such a lopsided fashion on Lionbackers......

He has been more accessible. From his stops at Rick's Sports and Stuff store, to chatting with us afterwards at the post game tailgates, and the fact that we all have enjoyed reading mightybuck's posts.......it made him seem like one of us, more than being a quarterback for our team.

None of the idiotic posts Blitz has brought forward, none of the stats or articles that have been submitted have mattered.

It's basically because the majority of us have spent time with him.....chatting, laughing, hanging out. The type of stuff you do with your friend.
I'd love you to say it to my face because you'd only say it once...if you ever had the courage to say it at all!! Blitz, 05/24/2008
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I'm really in the minority though but I happen to agree with Blitz. For some strange reason the road for a black quarterback has been tougher than a white quarterback from the grass roots up to the pros. Psychological facts show that it's easier for humans to identify and for them to want to be close to those who are just like them (ie. race, class, ethnicity etc.). Even when it comes to jerseys. As a person who works for a sports retailer and who crests and sells cfl jerseys I've noticed that certain player jerseys (those who are white) are crested and bought more then other players jerseys (black football players). More people tend to buy and wear javy glatt jerseys then otis floyd jerseys, even though both are equally popular and equally good. But enough about this topic. Buck has been chosen as our starting quarterback and we have to all throw our support behind him.
Last edited by Balraj on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bclions16
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Balraj wrote:I'm really in the minority though but I happen to agree with Blitz. For some strange reason the road for a black quarterback has been tougher than a white quarterback from the grass roots up to the pros.
Of course you are right on that point, I think we all agree on that issue. The issue in here is that I do not believe that race is the reason the fans want Buck.
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Big Time
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I can tell you that race had nothing to do with my vote - I'm white and I voted for JJ. I don't buy that race has anything to do with people choosing BP over JJ. However, it's become a running joke amongst my friends and I about how every single white QB is described as "intelligent" or "cerebral" (DD, BP) while every single black qb is described as "athletic" (CP, JJ). Just read any newspaper article about a QB and almost invariably, the white QB is seen as thriving on his intelligence while the black qb's are seen as thriving on athleticism. Every article on DD, BP and JJ last year had some mention of this. This is rampant in the NFL as well. Bottom line is that NO QB can be successful without some degree of both intelligence and athleticism. I just find it curious how race seems to play a factor in the type of QB you are described as - intelligent if you're white, athletic if you're black.
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Big Time wrote:I can tell you that race had nothing to do with my vote - I'm white and I voted for JJ. I don't buy that race has anything to do with people choosing BP over JJ. However, it's become a running joke amongst my friends and I about how every single white QB is described as "intelligent" or "cerebral" (DD, BP) while every single black qb is described as "athletic" (CP, JJ). Just read any newspaper article about a QB and almost invariably, the white QB is seen as thriving on his intelligence while the black qb's are seen as thriving on athleticism. Every article on DD, BP and JJ last year had some mention of this. This is rampant in the NFL as well. Bottom line is that NO QB can be successful without some degree of both intelligence and athleticism. I just find it curious how race seems to play a factor in the type of QB you are described as - intelligent if you're white, athletic if you're black.
This extends to other sports and positions as well. "Deceptively fast", "fan favourite", "gritty" are all usually code for white guys. It isn't racist, but it is stereotyping. Hardworking and overachieving are good ones as well. It actually can be quite funny.

Every guy who makes it in a pro sport is gifted athletically, and has had to work hard to develop those gifts - even the players we like to think of as lazy.

The other humourous aspect is that white guys will only be compared to white guys, and black guys to black guys. In the NFL, a WR prospect could be white and fast with iffy hands and he is likely to get called a "Joe Jurevicius type".
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bclions16
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Hey everyone. It's really important to note that Blitz' original post on this topic is no longer online. I don't know what happened to it, but it really is fundamental for context to this discussion.

So if you are wondering how this topic started, a couple of us replied to a post that is no longer here (or in the original thread).
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