Ottawa Situation - Very Nervous About the Gliebermans...

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Do you think the league should have approved the sale of the Renegades to the Gliebermans given their track record?

yes
25
58%
no
18
42%
 
Total votes: 43
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Rammer
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SammyGreene wrote:
David wrote:I don't get it either. Bob Ackles recently said that David Braley will likely make money for the first time this year. :?DH 8)
Ackles comment completely contradicts what was reported several times at the end of last season that Braley did indeed make money ... especially after drawing 55,000 for the WF when the break-even point was 33,000 ... nevermind that all those upper deck seats were going for $40 a pop.

Teams can cook their books anyway they want.
Yes that is the way of the professional sports teams. Braley made money with the GC in 99 as well. Really it is difficult when Braley himself annouces all over the radio waves that he would be making a profit with a 35K crowd for the WDF, well newflash 55K is 20K more at the $45 per ticket.

It wasn't too long ago that a 23K crowd was necessary for a break even point and then last year that was bumped up to the 28K mark, due to extra advertising revenue. Well we had better corporate support as well, that must offset that number to a certain degree.

So taking David's 27K average fan attendance, divide the WDF numbers by 10 games, we bumped that average up to 32.5K. We better of turned a profit last season or there really is no sense in owning a CFL franchise.

Anyways we host the GC this year and there is a huge profit awaiting Braley at the end of this season, if he doesn't bail after this one, we know that the numbers are good.
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MacNews
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I hate to say it but I'm looking forward to the Glibermans ownership because it sounds like, hopefully, this time their heads are screwed on right. If so it could be an exciting time for Ottawa fans.
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Bosco
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As long as Lonnie stops dating the cheerleaders, the franchise may be alright. :roll:

One has to wonder what the Renegades books would look if they didn't host the 2003 Grey Cup. With a top ticket price of $273, our $225 top drawer seats seem like a bargain.
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giwiens
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After hearing the interview with Lonnie this morning on TEAM 1040 I'm inclined to believe the only reason they want to buy the Renegades is to say they own a professional football team. Not once during the interview did the new team president talk about putting the best possible product on the field. He only referred to making the games fun. IMHO the simplest way to make the game fun is to put a good product on the field and the fans will have fun.

that's my two bits.
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Rick James
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I have little doubt that the Ottawa franchise will be successful if the team has even modest success. Look at how the bad they have been the last20 years and the fan support has been very good considering the lack of something to cheer for.

Giwens is correct. Win some games and build some momentum, because we know that there are fans in Ottawa. If the Gliber's invest some money into the football operation, then they will be a step up from the previous owners.
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i would think that the cfl as well as the b.o.g. will be keeping an eye on the situation in ottawa. i would also imagine that since the glibermans were not the first choice they may be working on a backup plan just in case !!!
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Bosco
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12+82=7 wrote:i would think that the cfl as well as the b.o.g. will be keeping an eye on the situation in ottawa. i would also imagine that since the glibermans were not the first choice they may be working on a backup plan just in case !!!
The problem is, the Glieberman's had the only offer on the table.
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cromartie
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And Ottawa is a notorious walk up town as well. I was at the first regular season Renagades game, and the house didn't sell out. But the ticket booth lines were outrageous, making me glad I had bought tickets ahead of time.

Plus, while public transport is good, there is no parking in that area. Zero. None, unless you're a season ticket holder. While this doesn't inconvienence most diehards, it must be a turnoff to the casual fan.

And we have to be honest about Ottawa's relationship with the Renegades, which isn't unlike Toronto's relationship with the Argos or even Vancouver's relationship with the Lions...it's either not the primary sports option in town, or it's a town of casual fans. If you don't market, and aren't successful on the field, the people aren't going to show up.

All this sets aside BIBC's comments on creative accounting, which I'm sure exists as well.
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Lionheart
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Lionut wrote: It's pretty tough to paper the house and not have anyone know about it, so the feeling is they were lying.
I disagree. They did it here, and very recently too. I'd say there was even a more desparate reason to do so in Ottawa. As for the 5 thousand total, who knows.

It's clear though that they can't continue, and if the losses weren't there they would be able to continue. So we know this fact, they are losing more money than they can afford, and are losing more money than expected. Nothing else really matters.

I'm glad out here that they've found someone to step up.
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Hambone
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Blue In BC wrote:
Rammer wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:I'm not thrilled about having them back also but what is the alternative ? The question I have is what is it about the CFL that attracts the Gliebermans?
Can't be the money that they are going to lose this season in addition to the $2M they invested. A conservative number was pegged at $3 - 4M.
I'd still like to hear somone explain how any team can lose $4M in a season when the cap is supposed to be $2.7M. Even with travel expenses, coaching and admin costs, this is difficult to fathom.

Where does all the gate money and TV money go? Into owners socks!!

It's creative accounting if you ask me ( and you didn't ).
I don't know if it's all that difficult to explain. I've read somewhere along the way that normal team operating budgets are somewhere between $7 million and $10 million. This I don't find to be out of line. I used to receive a copy of the Lions financial statements when I was a season ticket holder back in their community owned days. If memory serves me right they operated on a $4 million budget back in the final years of Empire Stadium.

Just for the fun of it and these are purely hypothetical unsubstantiated guesstimates:
Player salaries: $2.7M (snicker)
Coaching salaries: $600,000 (Head Coach + 6 assistants)
Football Operations salaries (CEO/Pres, GM, Dir. of PP, trainers, equipment dudes): $600,000
Business Operations Staff: (BC lists 25 people including Chayka, Passaglia, Carswell and various marketing, ticket reps etc right on down to the receptionist): $1.0M
That's $4.9M in salaries to run the team based on the wild expectation a team doesn't exceed the cap/guideline/floor. This is before they've purchased new footballs, shoes or equipment, rented a stadium, paid a medical bill, operated a training camp, traveled out of town (usually airfare, ground transportation plus 3 nights hotel + meals for 50 per road game), flown a player in, gone scouting or paid for TV, radio or print advertising. I'm starting to think the cost of operating a CFL team in 2005 is closer to $10 million per year than $7 million.

Ottawa's announced attendance for 2004 averaged 23050. According to CEO John Lisowski it was heavily papered and the actual paid average was around 16300 in 2004 and they lost $2 million excluding Grey Cup profits. I think we all know that any CFL team that can't crack the 20000 paid attendance plateau is going to lose a ton of money. So given an operating budget of $7 million to $10 million and average paid attendance of 16300 I don't think one needs creative accounting to claim a $2 million loss.
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Rammer
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Quickly calculating the paid attendance at a conservative $25 per ticket, you end up with the $3.7M area, add in luxury box's, corporate sponsership and the TV revenue, it should still provide a loss, but I don't get the $2M. Now if they can increase that substantially, Ottawa can also turn a profit.
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Hambone
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Lionheart wrote:
Lionut wrote: It's pretty tough to paper the house and not have anyone know about it, so the feeling is they were lying.
I disagree. They did it here, and very recently too. I'd say there was even a more desparate reason to do so in Ottawa. As for the 5 thousand total, who knows.

It's clear though that they can't continue, and if the losses weren't there they would be able to continue. So we know this fact, they are losing more money than they can afford, and are losing more money than expected. Nothing else really matters.

I'm glad out here that they've found someone to step up.
To add to that thought I just read an article yesterday on Andre Arlain's departure from the Stampeders. It indicated Stampeder attendance has been "papered" by as many as 5000 for several years. I'm not sure if "papered" is the correct term, but extra season tickets as perks for the players have been common practice that appears to be ceasing with the new ownership.

From Eric Francis' article yesterday on Arlain's release:
It was just last week Arlain broached a touchy subject at Stampyland regarding season tickets. As part of an ongoing effort to eliminate close to 5,000 complimentary ducats a game the team has been distributing for years, Stamps president, CEO and co-owner Ted Hellard wasn't exactly forthcoming with regards to the 10 sets of red season tickets Arlain was due according to his contract.
"At the end of the day, those tickets are worth a bit of money for me," said Arlain of the $40 ducats that amounted to an $8,000 perk he counted on to help entertain clients in the oil patch.[/i]
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Hambone
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Rammer wrote:Quickly calculating the paid attendance at a conservative $25 per ticket, you end up with the $3.7M area, add in luxury box's, corporate sponsership and the TV revenue, it should still provide a loss, but I don't get the $2M. Now if they can increase that substantially, Ottawa can also turn a profit.
Not sure what revenues Ottawa could draw from luxury boxes. Certainly not near as much as the Lions can. BC Place has suites encircling the entire stadium. In Ottawa I believe they only exist on the one side of the stadium between the lower and upper deck. Where BC Place might have 40 suites, Frank Clair likely has no more than 10.

What is CFL TV revenue these days? $1.5 million per year tops?

There's still lots of ground for the 'Gades to make up to be profitable.
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Rammer
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Hambone wrote:
Rammer wrote:Quickly calculating the paid attendance at a conservative $25 per ticket, you end up with the $3.7M area, add in luxury box's, corporate sponsership and the TV revenue, it should still provide a loss, but I don't get the $2M. Now if they can increase that substantially, Ottawa can also turn a profit.
Not sure what revenues Ottawa could draw from luxury boxes. Certainly not near as much as the Lions can. BC Place has suites encircling the entire stadium. In Ottawa I believe they only exist on the one side of the stadium between the lower and upper deck. Where BC Place might have 40 suites, Frank Clair likely has no more than 10.

What is CFL TV revenue these days? $1.5 million per year tops?

There's still lots of ground for the 'Gades to make up to be profitable.
I believe the TV revenue is around the $900K per team per year, IIRC. Plus a share to the league.
Last edited by Rammer on Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cromartie
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I believe the TV revenue is around the $900K per team per year, IIRC.
From the TSN deal, yes.
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