Lions sign 3 DL

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squishy35
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:41 am

http://3downnation.com/2018/01/25/lions ... augh-reed/

3 internationals. McCord has experience with Hamilton; but Reed looks intriguing with his experience with Buffalo and Miami.

I wonder if this means Bazzie will be deferring to Free Agency....?

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WestCoastJoe
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am

The Lions are staying with the blueprint of smaller DL. Big or small, the performance of our DL has been lacking in recent years. Not enough pressure on the QB. Because of the system and the play design? Contain rather than attack? Possibly. But also because of the choices of International personnel. IMO ...

Will we be near the lead in sacks and pressures this year? Hmmmm ... One has doubts.

Same system. Same personnel blueprint it seems to me.

As with other posters on this site, I like our National DL personnel. Menard, Luke and Forde.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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squishy35
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:42 am

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am
The Lions are staying with the blueprint of smaller DL. Big or small, the performance of our DL has been lacking in recent years. Not enough pressure on the QB. Because of the system and the play design? Contain rather than attack? Possibly. But also because of the choices of International personnel. IMO ...

Will we be near the lead in sacks and pressures this year? Hmmmm ... One has doubts.

Same system. Same personnel blueprint it seems to me.

As with other posters on this site, I like our National DL personnel. Menard, Luke and Forde.
Agree with your assessment of small DL. I miss the attack style Defensive Line that the Lions were notoriously known for under Stubler and Ritchie.....

B.C.FAN
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:51 am

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am
The Lions are staying with the blueprint of smaller DL. Big or small, the performance of our DL has been lacking in recent years. Not enough pressure on the QB. Because of the system and the play design? Contain rather than attack? Possibly. But also because of the choices of International personnel. IMO ...

Will we be near the lead in sacks and pressures this year? Hmmmm ... One has doubts.

Same system. Same personnel blueprint it seems to me.

As with other posters on this site, I like our National DL personnel. Menard, Luke and Forde.
My thoughts and fears exactly. I was hoping Hervey would push for a change in thinking but my first thoughts on the latest signings was that they all appear to fit the mould of players deployed by Mark Washington and Robin Ross in recent years. Remember how the Lions were excited about rotating eight D-linemen last year? It was based on the theory of strength in numbers. I’d rather see some strength to collapse the pocket.
"I think [Fred Fateri] was like a lot of people who watch football, hockey or any professional sport on television. They sit there and think they could coach better than the professional. Some people really think that." - Bob Ackles, The Water Boy

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WestCoastJoe
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am

B.C.FAN wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:51 am
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am
The Lions are staying with the blueprint of smaller DL. Big or small, the performance of our DL has been lacking in recent years. Not enough pressure on the QB. Because of the system and the play design? Contain rather than attack? Possibly. But also because of the choices of International personnel. IMO ...

Will we be near the lead in sacks and pressures this year? Hmmmm ... One has doubts.

Same system. Same personnel blueprint it seems to me.

As with other posters on this site, I like our National DL personnel. Menard, Luke and Forde.
My thoughts and fears exactly. I was hoping Hervey would push for a change in thinking but my first thoughts on the latest signings was that they all appear to fit the mould of players deployed by Mark Washington and Robin Ross in recent years. Remember how the Lions were excited about rotating eight D-linemen last year? It was based on the theory of strength in numbers. I’d rather see some strength to collapse the pocket.
Mark W has his concept of how to play defence. This fan does not think his concept is championship level. Too conservatIve. The focus on containment rather than attack brings mediocre results.

Do you have your guys attack the LOS, aiming to penetrate, to collapse the pocket, to get after the QB? Or is that too risky a concept in the DC's mind?

I think we have enough data now to make some judgments about Mark W's concept, after his years as DC.

Will we see significant change in the system? I cannot imagine that.

We do not have pocket collapsers. We do not have QB terrorizers at rush end. We have contain guys. Protect your gaps. Play it 'safe' rather than 'risky.' IMO not good enough in the CFL.

1 The system, as in playbook, game plans and play calls

2 The International personnel blueprint

I expect similar results this year to Mark's previous years.

Just one fan's opinion ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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David
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:30 am

B.C.FAN wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:51 am
Remember how the Lions were excited about rotating eight D-linemen last year? It was based on the theory of strength in numbers. I’d rather see some strength to collapse the pocket.
:wink:

Good one! My theory of Wally trumpeting his "9 or 10" D-linemen was because he didn't have "4 or 5" really good ones!

Some talent there, but too many mediocre interchangeable parts IMO. What they refer to in football as JAGs.

(just another guy).


DH :cool:
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am

Smaller and quicker seems to be the norm across the CFL. The numbers can somewhat be taken with a grain of salt given where we are in the offseason and teams are at different points of filling their TC roster but some raw numbers:

300#+ linemen: There are currently only 5 listed on rosters across the CFL with only 4 teams listing one. Winnipeg is the only team with two. 5 teams don't have DL in the 300+ range.
270-299# range: 35 - This is the range with the most consistency across the CFL. 8 of 9 teams have either 3 or 4. BC is one of 5 teams with 4. Only Hamilton lists more than 5. They have 6.
250-269# range: 33 - This where there is the widest variety of roster makeup. BC lists 8 DL in this range making up half of their league high of 16 DL under contract. On the other end of the scale are Hamilton and Calgary with only 1 each.
249# & under: 29 - Calgary leads the way with 6 which means half of their current roster of 12 DL are under 250#. BC has 4 which is the same as Ottawa, less than Calgary and Hamilton and more than the other 5 clubs.
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:15 pm

Hambone wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am
Smaller and quicker seems to be the norm across the CFL. The numbers can somewhat be taken with a grain of salt given where we are in the offseason and teams are at different points of filling their TC roster but some raw numbers:

300#+ linemen: There are currently only 5 listed on rosters across the CFL with only 4 teams listing one. Winnipeg is the only team with two. 5 teams don't have DL in the 300+ range.
270-299# range: 35 - This is the range with the most consistency across the CFL. 8 of 9 teams have either 3 or 4. BC is one of 5 teams with 4. Only Hamilton lists more than 5. They have 6.
250-269# range: 33 - This where there is the widest variety of roster makeup. BC lists 8 DL in this range making up half of their league high of 16 DL under contract. On the other end of the scale are Hamilton and Calgary with only 1 each.
249# & under: 29 - Calgary leads the way with 6 which means half of their current roster of 12 DL are under 250#. BC has 4 which is the same as Ottawa, less than Calgary and Hamilton and more than the other 5 clubs.
Interesting numbers. What's the most effective weight for a CFL defensive lineman? Here are the 2017 CFL leaders in tackles and sacks among defensive linemen, and their listed weights:

TACKLES
45 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)
41 Davon Coleman, Ham (282)
40 Justin Capicciotti, Ham (235)
40 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
38 Gabe Knapton, Mon (263) *Traded to B.C.
36 Jackson Jeffcoat, Win (255)
36 Almondo Sewell, Edm (285)

Top 7 average weight: 259

SACKS
11 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
10 Victor Butler, Tor (248)
9 John Bowman, Mtl (250)
9 Micah Johnson, Cal (273)
9 Ja'Garod Davis, Cal (238)
9 Adrian Tracy, Ham (245)
8 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)

Top 7 average weight: 250
"I think [Fred Fateri] was like a lot of people who watch football, hockey or any professional sport on television. They sit there and think they could coach better than the professional. Some people really think that." - Bob Ackles, The Water Boy

maxlion
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:32 pm

Hambone wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am
Smaller and quicker seems to be the norm across the CFL. The numbers can somewhat be taken with a grain of salt given where we are in the offseason and teams are at different points of filling their TC roster but some raw numbers:

300#+ linemen: There are currently only 5 listed on rosters across the CFL with only 4 teams listing one. Winnipeg is the only team with two. 5 teams don't have DL in the 300+ range.
270-299# range: 35 - This is the range with the most consistency across the CFL. 8 of 9 teams have either 3 or 4. BC is one of 5 teams with 4. Only Hamilton lists more than 5. They have 6.
250-269# range: 33 - This where there is the widest variety of roster makeup. BC lists 8 DL in this range making up half of their league high of 16 DL under contract. On the other end of the scale are Hamilton and Calgary with only 1 each.
249# & under: 29 - Calgary leads the way with 6 which means half of their current roster of 12 DL are under 250#. BC has 4 which is the same as Ottawa, less than Calgary and Hamilton and more than the other 5 clubs.
Thanks for posting this.

I have no doubt that we could be among the league leaders in sacks and pressures next year if that is the approach that Washington takes. As recently as 2016, we were tied for first in sacks. In 2017, Washington said he wanted to force more turnovers. It seems that his strategy involved forcing the pass by shutting down the run, and increasing coverage at the expense of creating qb pressure. We were very good at stopping the run, and improved at creating turnovers at least in the first half of the season (but tailed off later). But the overall results weren't great.

Most of the things that Washington gets heat for--linebackers dropping into coverage, smaller linemen, being selective about when to be aggressive--are league-wide phenomena. He is scheming pretty much what everyone else around the league is scheming. But he might not be doing it as well as some others, and in some cases may not have the personnel (though I'm not sure about this. It seems to me that we have some pretty good players to work with). My biggest beef is that there is no identity or consistency. We look like world beaters one game and get badly exposed the next.

I agree with others that Washington hasn't shown the ability to put together a consistent, championship calibre defense. It seems that he is constantly plugging one leak only to have another sprout up somewhere else. Too often, he's one step behind the competition. Until he can build a consistent defense that wins when it counts, he deserves the scrutiny.

Looking at his twitter account, I can't help but wonder how much of his Jesus crusade makes it into the dressing room. I would hope that he separates this from his working life but, somehow, I doubt it.

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Gridiron Ernie
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:08 pm

B.C.FAN wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:15 pm
Hambone wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am
Smaller and quicker seems to be the norm across the CFL. The numbers can somewhat be taken with a grain of salt given where we are in the offseason and teams are at different points of filling their TC roster but some raw numbers:

300#+ linemen: There are currently only 5 listed on rosters across the CFL with only 4 teams listing one. Winnipeg is the only team with two. 5 teams don't have DL in the 300+ range.
270-299# range: 35 - This is the range with the most consistency across the CFL. 8 of 9 teams have either 3 or 4. BC is one of 5 teams with 4. Only Hamilton lists more than 5. They have 6.
250-269# range: 33 - This where there is the widest variety of roster makeup. BC lists 8 DL in this range making up half of their league high of 16 DL under contract. On the other end of the scale are Hamilton and Calgary with only 1 each.
249# & under: 29 - Calgary leads the way with 6 which means half of their current roster of 12 DL are under 250#. BC has 4 which is the same as Ottawa, less than Calgary and Hamilton and more than the other 5 clubs.
Interesting numbers. What's the most effective weight for a CFL defensive lineman? Here are the 2017 CFL leaders in tackles and sacks among defensive linemen, and their listed weights:

TACKLES
45 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)
41 Davon Coleman, Ham (282)
40 Justin Capicciotti, Ham (235)
40 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
38 Gabe Knapton, Mon (263) *Traded to B.C.
36 Jackson Jeffcoat, Win (255)
36 Almondo Sewell, Edm (285)

Top 7 average weight: 259

SACKS
11 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
10 Victor Butler, Tor (248)
9 John Bowman, Mtl (250)
9 Micah Johnson, Cal (273)
9 Ja'Garod Davis, Cal (238)
9 Adrian Tracy, Ham (245)
8 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)

Top 7 average weight: 250
Wonderful work, Hambone/B.C.FAN! Good thinking. Great line of inquiry and investigation. Much appreciated. Very interesting. Your exchange is educational. Just the kind of thing I enjoy about this forum.

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Hambone
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:39 pm

B.C.FAN wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:15 pm
Hambone wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am
Smaller and quicker seems to be the norm across the CFL. The numbers can somewhat be taken with a grain of salt given where we are in the offseason and teams are at different points of filling their TC roster but some raw numbers:

300#+ linemen: There are currently only 5 listed on rosters across the CFL with only 4 teams listing one. Winnipeg is the only team with two. 5 teams don't have DL in the 300+ range.
270-299# range: 35 - This is the range with the most consistency across the CFL. 8 of 9 teams have either 3 or 4. BC is one of 5 teams with 4. Only Hamilton lists more than 5. They have 6.
250-269# range: 33 - This where there is the widest variety of roster makeup. BC lists 8 DL in this range making up half of their league high of 16 DL under contract. On the other end of the scale are Hamilton and Calgary with only 1 each.
249# & under: 29 - Calgary leads the way with 6 which means half of their current roster of 12 DL are under 250#. BC has 4 which is the same as Ottawa, less than Calgary and Hamilton and more than the other 5 clubs.
Interesting numbers. What's the most effective weight for a CFL defensive lineman? Here are the 2017 CFL leaders in tackles and sacks among defensive linemen, and their listed weights:

TACKLES
45 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)
41 Davon Coleman, Ham (282)
40 Justin Capicciotti, Ham (235)
40 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
38 Gabe Knapton, Mon (263) *Traded to B.C.
36 Jackson Jeffcoat, Win (255)
36 Almondo Sewell, Edm (285)

Top 7 average weight: 259

SACKS
11 Charleston Hughes, Cal (246)
10 Victor Butler, Tor (248)
9 John Bowman, Mtl (250)
9 Micah Johnson, Cal (273)
9 Ja'Garod Davis, Cal (238)
9 Adrian Tracy, Ham (245)
8 Willie Jefferson, Sas (248)

Top 7 average weight: 250
I think th tackle numbers for DL tend to reflect position first and foremost. Given the way CFL offences run these days it's hard for interior DL to rack up big tackle numbers. CFL offenses don't run up the middle a whole lot and when they do if the RB finds any sort of gap the LBS pick up the tackle numbers. Sacks also typically go to the DEs. So by nature of the game the smaller DL typically will show the better numbers for tackles and sacks.
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WestCoastJoe
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Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:23 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:57 am
The Lions are staying with the blueprint of smaller DL. Big or small, the performance of our DL has been lacking in recent years.
Smaller. Bigger. What matters is you have to get the job done. Can the guys play? Can they penetrate the LOS? Can they get to the QB? Can they produce, within the system? I expect our guys are doing exactly what Mark W wants, within their assignments. But the results, IMO, are not good enough. It is no doubt partly a personnel problem, the International selections we have made. And, even moreso, it is the limitations of the systems we run.

Job #1 ... Pressure the QB.

Job #2 ... Stop the run.

And you must create turnovers.

This requires an attitude of attack. It seems to this fan that our attitude/approach is containment. Play it ''safe.'' Protect your gaps up front. Don't get trapped. Give deep drops to receivers. Don't get beat deep. Playing safe, those things happen anyway, along with frequent blown assignments in this regime.

Do we have a championship level of defence?

We have not had a top level defence since Rich Stubler was let go in 2014.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Lion ... story.html
But the dismissal of Stubler was a shocker, especially since the Lions were statistically at or near the top of most categories during his two seasons as coordinator. -- Iain Macintyre with the Province 06/09/2014
Is our approach one of containment rather than attack? It might not matter what personnel we bring in. In our system, they may well look the same, as we have seen.

I greatly respect Mark Washington as a person and a citizen. For his work as DC since 2014, this fan has to give him a failing grade.

Can we expect improvement? One has doubts.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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Sir Purrcival
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Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:00 am

You said it perfectly WCJ. I don't care if personnel on the Dline weigh 158lbs soaking wet and are effective because they play in kilts with no underwear. The important word in all of that is "effective". I don't know what it is with this team but there seems to be a few positions where we struggle consistently to find effective players. The two most obvious that come to mind are on the Dline and at Safety. Oline has been another area. It either comes down to bad coaching or bad player personnel selection or maybe a combination of both. I'm not quite sure but once again, we seem to be intent on bringing in lots of "maybes" rather than making a concerted effort to bring in established players through free agency. Makes it hard to get excited about this team.
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Smaller. Bigger. What matters is you have to get the job done. Can the guys play? Can they penetrate the LOS? Can they get to the QB? Can they produce, within the system? I expect our guys are doing exactly what Mark W wants, within their assignments. But the results, IMO, are not good enough. It is no doubt partly a personnel problem, the International selections we have made. And, even moreso, it is the limitations of the systems we run.

Job #1 ... Pressure the QB.

Job #2 ... Stop the run.

And you must create turnovers.

This requires an attitude of attack. It seems to this fan that our attitude/approach is containment. Play it ''safe.'' Protect your gaps up front. Don't get trapped. Give deep drops to receivers. Don't get beat deep. Playing safe, those things happen anyway, along with frequent blown assignments in this regime.

Do we have a championship level of defence?

We have not had a top level defence since Rich Stubler was let go in 2014.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Lion ... story.html
But the dismissal of Stubler was a shocker, especially since the Lions were statistically at or near the top of most categories during his two seasons as coordinator. -- Iain Macintyre with the Province 06/09/2014
Is our approach one of containment rather than attack? It might not matter what personnel we bring in. In our system, they may well look the same, as we have seen.

I greatly respect Mark Washington as a person and a citizen. For his work as DC since 2014, this fan has to give him a failing grade.

Can we expect improvement? One has doubts.

Just IMO ...
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.

B.C.FAN
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Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:46 am

Sir Purrcival wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:00 am
I'm not quite sure but once again, we seem to be intent on bringing in lots of "maybes" rather than making a concerted effort to bring in established players through free agency.
I still hope that Gabe Knapton and DeQuin Evans can be two missing pieces that the Lions didn't have for most of last year.

Knapton, acquired in a trade for Chris Williams this offseason, has average 8 sacks in his 4 seasons in Montreal. He ranked fifth in the league among defensive linemen with 38 tackles last year, and had 8 pressures.

I haven't heard an update on Evans' back issues that sidelined him for most of last year. He was dominant in the 5 games he played, with 9 pressures. That projects to 32 for an 18-game season. Only Saskatchewan's Willie Jefferson (37) had more. Craig Roh led the Lions with 15 pressures in 18 games.

A DL rotation featuring a healthy Evans, Knapton, Bazzie and perhaps Brooks or someone new, along with nationals Menard, Luke and Forde would be an upgrade on what the Lions had last year.
"I think [Fred Fateri] was like a lot of people who watch football, hockey or any professional sport on television. They sit there and think they could coach better than the professional. Some people really think that." - Bob Ackles, The Water Boy

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The_Pauser
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Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:07 pm

According to the article, Waugh weighs only 26 pounds. That's a bit on the small side if you ask me....not sure about this one.
THINK about it

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