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WestCoastJoe
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:53 am

David wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:26 pm
As a one-year fix, I can live with Mark Washington as HC and Noel Thorpe as our new DC. Would love Benny to come back as our ST coordinator, but that will never happen.

This is purely a hunch, but I believe MW can be a very good motivator. I've heard him speak and he's a damn fine orator. With so many young players, I think he can get more hustle, effort, and concentration from this group.

Of course, it will take a lot more to right the ship (improved offensive schemes, upgraded line play on both sides of the ball, improved special teams, and a healthy Travis would help), but I believe MW has the chops to do this. Again, pure gut instinct at play here. I am sure some others would disagree.


DH :cool:
I have heard Mark W speak also. Very solid. Strong character guy. I agree that he might be better as HC than as DC. But are we grasping at straws here?

As a DC, his defence was a failure. Receivers open all over the field. Breakdowns. Quarterbacks with time for a cup of coffee. Very little deception. Here is how we line up. Here we are. Beat us. And they do. Can't get sacks. Can't get turnovers.

Mark W as HC and Noel Thorpe as DC? Might be an improvement. I like Thorpe's style of defence. With MW as DC, methinks Wally could not stay out of the kitchen. Same with STs and maybe even the O in terms of philosophy, ie. no tricks, simple, in your face, physical football. As noted, easily scouted.

OC? Some players like Khari as OC. At times we had a vigorous run game. At times we had a very good passing attack.

STs? Methinks Marcello Simmons gets sacrificed, although some of us think it was not his blueprint.

O Line? If Wally stays, that will be the big loyalty test. With a new HC, I expect we get a new OL coach.

It is all speculation. So much uncertainty ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

Blitz
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:11 am

Hambone wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am
DanoT wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:09 am
The problem with Wally returning for another season is that with the coaching staff that he has assembled, missing the playoffs for 2018 is a distinct possibility. And if June Jones returns to Hamilton there may not be a western playoff crossover.

Wally could stay on and replace some assistants but a somewhat new batch of assistants might need more than one season to right the ship. So, another reason for Wally to say good bye.

Wally's ego cannot stand another loosing season and while one loosing season in 2017 does not really damage his legacy, a second loosing season (or third?) could. At age 67, Wally needs to retire now and he knows it but is reluctant to admit it.
I'm not saying it's not time for Wally to move on as I do think it's time for new younger blood. What I'm curious about is why names like Hufnagel (66 now) and Jones (65 in Feb) are getting so much cred as possible replacements given they are basically the same vintage as Buono. If Wally does decide to call it a day I certainly hope his positions are replaced by guys who can be long-term solutions. For sure whomever takes the VP or GM jobs should be somebody the organization envisions being here for at least the next decade. One would hope for the same for a HC however it seems to be more the exception than the rule for a HC to last more than 4 or 5 years.
Wally's chronological age has never been a factor to me. Yes, Hufnagel and Jones are the same 'vintage' as Buono, as you note Hambone, in terms of their chronological age. Pete Carroll of the Seahawks is the oldest coach in the NFL, I believe (or one of the oldest ones anyway)

But no one has ever accused Peter Carroll of being 'old'. Hufnagel does not come off as 'old'. To me, Buono does.

I posted once before that, for each person, there is a chronological 'age', a physical 'age', intellectual 'age', an emotional age (EQ) and a spiritual age.

Take Pete Caroll. He is old in years. But he runs around like a teenager and is in good shape physically. He looks much younger than his years. He is considered very bright and always learning. His emotional age is sometimes much younger than his years but he also takes responsibility for his errors most of the time - for example, when the team was fined and punished for practicing more than allowed, he took responsibility and apologized to the fans. Carroll is also considered young in spirit.

When I consider Wally Buono, he is about Pete Carrol's age. But Buono waddles off the field fairly close to his physical age. He looks his age. Buono's approach, intellectually to the game of football is not a life-long learner approach. He has basically used the same schmes and systems for a very long time. He thought it was a big deal to make a small change to the Leos practice schedule later in the season. He tends to be rigid.

So called 'younger Head Coaches' tend to be more innovative and there has been a trend towards younger coaches in both the NFL and CFL but a Head Coach can be innovative too (young in mind) if he takes an approach to that he doesn't know everything and is adaptable. June Jones demonstrated that in Hamilton this season.

In terms of emotional age, Buono is very young and immature. He is a blamer, a deflector, and he scapegoats. Someone with his previous success and maturity should take more accountability. But Buono, when things don't go well, is like a kid who blames someone else or everyone else when trouble arrives.

Buono had a victim mentality this season. He was the victim of a 'lack of player execution', 'lack of player intensity', 'lack of players not playing angry enough during games', 'lack of players not making plays' , and also a victim of 'player arrogance or stupidity' for creating a fund for players wives to attend the Grey Cup if the team won a berth'. Buono also ensured that he was a victim of a lack of direction in terms of team ownership. Buono also comes across as old in spirit. He is much more negative than positive and he is usually angry when he is coaching, rather than cerebral or encouraging or advising.

Wally, in too many areas is 'old' to me but then again, he has been 'old' for a long time. I could care less about the chronological age of the Head Coach. I would love Marv Levy to unretired and coach this team. I would be happy to have Dave Ritchie here because even though he was curmudgeon at times, he as innovative and players really liked playing for him. If June Jones was our Heac Coach it would please me. He has an attitude that he wants to learn, to listen, and yet he also can be directive and he confident in himself.

Hufnagel has been so successful, not only because of his abilities in assessing talent and game planning but also because of his willingness to adapt and change, as well as mentor his assistant coaches.

If Buono could take his experience and combine that with a different approach to leadership and coaching, we would be in a good place. I don't care what age Buono is. Its his rigidity and approach that makes him 'old'.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)

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Lion Guy
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:38 am

Mark Washington, Khari Jones, Dan Dorazio and Marcello Simmons need to be driven to the airport. Any coaching squad that can eff up that badly with the talent they had to work with are simply incompetent.

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Toppy Vann
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:21 am

The KEY issue with those recycled former HC's is did they learn the lessons. Lapo was in a battle with his idiot GM who got fired over calling the plays IIRC and it did seem that Lapo was trying to do too many jobs versus structuring the staff so it's not a one man show - as most of those eventually crash and flame out.

These are a few key questions for recycled former HCs -
1. What did they learn from the past role? What would they do differently?
2. What will they do differently?
3. What do they see the issues with the Lions (schemes, et al).
4. What kind of staff will they hire (roles, potential people) and how will they run it?
5. Philosophy in coaching and developing staff.

Who knows maybe Mike Benevides has learned the lessons and ideally wouldn't mimic Jason Maas who is becoming least liked among CFL coaches for his demeanour on the sidelines.

ATTITUDE to the media and fans is essential in a HC. Like Wally or not, he recognizes the media role and he never, ever shirks that responsibility. Media and fans might not like what he says, he is always available and makes players available too. That is the North American market and BC market for sports - coach must talk.



Thanks for this Hambone (I did a check not on who fired but the circumstances! as it was mid year:
Hambone wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:06 am
It was Galat who canned Matthews Toppy. Bob was long gone when that happened. He left at the start of the 86 season. Matthews was fired half way through the 87 season. The prickly attitude no doubt was still a big factor.
I was tentatively typing but yes, it was Galat and some of it might have been the media attitude in his mind as well as his own giant ego. Ackles fired Rapp but that was earlier on.

The attitude issue is relevant to who comes here as HC as in those days I had seasons tickets and a DT parking space but by the time I got to the car (very nearby) the post game show interview with the HC was over and the old Don was not media friendly.

This article on the WIFL says this about the firing:
And in case you don't know the difference between a Stampeder and a Blue Bomber, you probably don't know that Matthews was the head coach of the Canadian Football League's British Columbia Lions last year until General Manager Joe Galat fired him just hours before the team's 15th game.

The Lions had lost three in a row. Their quarterback, Roy Dewalt, had been hurt. Their attendance had been sagging. Their fiscal outlook was hip deep in red ink. And Galat had come to British Columbia after Matthews.

"Joe Galat figured this was his opportunity," Matthews says. "After five years of me winning 70% of our games, he fired me for losing three in a row. It was a very unpopular move with the fans."

Not to mention with Matthews.

So Matthews, who compiled a 52-20-1 record (including one Grey Cup league championship) in his five years in British Columbia, asked his wife where she would like to live until he found another job in coaching. She said San Diego. They rented a house in Del Mar and, surprise, fell in love with the area
"He (Galat) wanted a guy who would take orders," Matthews says.
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-19/ ... n-matthews

TheLionKing
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:09 pm

Lion Guy wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:38 am
Mark Washington, Khari Jones, Dan Dorazio and Marcello Simmons need to be driven to the airport. Any coaching squad that can eff up that badly with the talent they had to work with are simply incompetent.
:thup: :thup:

TheLionKing
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:12 pm

Galat if I recall was also the reason why Lui Passaglia tried out with the Cleveland Browns of the NFL.

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aklawitter
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Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:38 pm

David wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:26 pm
As a one-year fix, I can live with Mark Washington as HC and Noel Thorpe as our new DC. Would love Benny to come back as our ST coordinator, but that will never happen.

This is purely a hunch, but I believe MW can be a very good motivator. I've heard him speak and he's a damn fine orator. With so many young players, I think he can get more hustle, effort, and concentration from this group.

Of course, it will take a lot more to right the ship (improved offensive schemes, upgraded line play on both sides of the ball, improved special teams, and a healthy Travis would help), but I believe MW has the chops to do this. Again, pure gut instinct at play here. I am sure some others would disagree.


DH :cool:
I think MW could be a HC. However, he has yet to prove himself competent as a Coordinator at the professional level. Perhaps he needs to pay his dues in CIS? (USports is an awful name and I refuse to use it)

Blitz
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:30 am

TheLionKing wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:09 pm
Lion Guy wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:38 am
Mark Washington, Khari Jones, Dan Dorazio and Marcello Simmons need to be driven to the airport. Any coaching squad that can eff up that badly with the talent they had to work with are simply incompetent.
:thup: :thup:
The entire staff should be driven to the airport. The talent on this 2017 Leos football team and its record are completely out of sync.

Here it is quite simply.

Offence - 7th in total points, gave up the most sacks in the CFL, and committed the most turnovers. Both quarterbacks (Lulay, Jennings) had the highest interception rate per passes thrown in the CFL this season and both are very good quarterbacks)

Defense - 7th in terms of points against, 7th in sacks, 7th in interceptions, 8th in forced fumbles.

Special Teams - Tied for last in punt return average. Tons of gaffes.

Doesn't matter where one looks, offence, defense, or punt return team, this was a very bad coaching job this season.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)

JohnnyMusso
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:48 am

If the Lions do not make big changes to their coaching staff, they will continue to lose both on the field and off.

Firing Ross and the Special Teams guy is not enough.

If they end up doing nothing and everybody is back, then they will be heavily criticized for it.

The question is when does Wally B make his decision. It has got to be soon.

B.C.FAN
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:59 am

Blitz wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:30 am
The entire staff should be driven to the airport. The talent on this 2017 Leos football team and its record are completely out of sync.

Here it is quite simply.

Offence - 7th in total points, gave up the most sacks in the CFL, and committed the most turnovers. Both quarterbacks (Lulay, Jennings) had the highest interception rate per passes thrown in the CFL this season and both are very good quarterbacks)

Defense - 7th in terms of points against, 7th in sacks, 7th in interceptions, 8th in forced fumbles.

Special Teams - Tied for last in punt return average. Tons of gaffes.

Doesn't matter where one looks, offence, defense, or punt return team, this was a very bad coaching job this season.
I'd put the offensive issues almost entirely on Jennings. The CFL is a quarterback-driven league. The Lions had the best offence in the league by far when Lulay was the quarterback. Jennings had trouble seeing the field and targeted his two inside slots on half his passes, even if they were covered, largely ignoring Chris Williams, Nick Moore, Marco Iannuzzi and Shaq Johnson. Lulay was the league's highest rated quarterback and Jennings was 11th.

I think the Lions could have done a better job of integrating Williams into the offence but I see Jennings' struggles as problem of execution more than coaching.

I think we all see Jennings' potential. Perhaps the Lions can find a better QB coach than Khari Jones but I wouldn't blame the offensive design or play-calling for the lack of execution. Even with Jennings' well-documented struggles, the Lions had more net offence than playoff-bound Calgary, Saskatchewan and Winnipeg, and they led the league in red-zone production, scoring a touchdown on 70.9% of trips inside the 20 yard line. (Calgary was ranked last in that stat.)

I still firmly believe the Lions would be in the playoffs, and would be considered one of the teams to beat, if Lulay had stayed healthy.
"I think [Fred Fateri] was like a lot of people who watch football, hockey or any professional sport on television. They sit there and think they could coach better than the professional. Some people really think that." - Bob Ackles, The Water Boy

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Toppy Vann
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:39 pm

Jennings problems won't be fixed in the off season by playing catch and working out nor if he's trying to land a gig in the NFL and not focused on his current play.

Like Dave Naylor who can't resist saying Johnny Manziel at every chance he can, I can't resist saying if Jennings wants to be a star in the future as a QB, he'd be best to get to Jeff Garcia's camp!

Like leaders, it's always interesting to hear QBs say who they admire as other QBs or who they model their careers after. I'm not sure who Jennings is modelling himself on but Bo Lo Levi Mitchell made two good decisions to date in his CFL career:

1. Focus on how to win CFL championships and not start looking past that. (June Jones claims he told him and Sol E and others to go straight to the CFL not glance at the NFL - but only BLM listened.)

2. On Dave Dickenson's rec'd'n BLM paid his own way to Jeff Garcia's 1 month camp.
This camp was during the off season where it was not clear if they'd start BLM or Drew Tate. We know how this turned out for BLM. There is volumes of lessons learned by BLM at that camp and we know he came out that season on fire.

Jennings would be wise to learn the Casey Printer's lesson who achieved nothing but ruining his career by heading to the NFL. Oh, when Casey said Warren Moon was his model it was laughable for one reason. Moon was totally established in the CFL (5 GCs IIRC) and he went to the NFL IIRC when Hugh Campbell his former Esks coach was there so already he had the love. Even a casual observer could the risk in Kansas of Casey committing career suicide as he regained none of the form he had showed and lost his game.

The Lions are in a quandary as to the roles right now but Uncle Wally and Grampa Dave Braley - pay for this camp and get this QB to Garcia's camp!!!!

leo4life
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:17 pm

Lol at Braley paying for Jennings to go to a QB Camp....Lions dont even go to Florida for mini camp and Braley is very frugal and stubborn...Naylor had a field day about him on 1040 and Pratt said the Leos cant sell another season of Wally as HC and current staff..

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WestCoastJoe
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:38 pm

It would seem that a top level candidate would not want to be the next Head Coach of the Lions. It would likely be a one year gig, pending a sale of the team.

If Wally is not HC next year, IMO the most likely new coach is Mark W.

Getting Noel Thorpe as DC would, IMO, be a positive. No guarantee Thorpe would accept.

OC? Probably Khari.

STs? Someone new, as Simmons probably takes the fall.

If approached, would LaPolice take the HC gig? I doubt it. Would Benny do the loyalty thing for Wally? Not this time, methinks.

It ain't pretty. It is a picture of organizational dysfunction. Absentee owner. Frugal owner. Unrealistic prospective seller. Dream world owner, showing his age, and his dithering on decision making.

Dysfunctional coaching staff. Amateurish, carved in stone, game plans. Minimal adjustments. Easily scouted. Blown assignments all over the place on O, D and STs. All 3 units.

Receivers seem to run routes by the numbers, with defenders fully aware and anticipating. No separation. Offences see our pass defence leaving huge gaps in coverage and zones. STs fail to block and to cover. Plus they are constantly tricked, fooled.

And next year we get ... more of the same. :dizzy:

As noted, IMO our best hope at this time might be Neil McAvoy as GM, with full authority to clean house. Would he be able to bring in a top level HC? Who knows?
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

DanoT
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:58 pm

I am predicting that next week or it might be after the GC, Wally announces his retirement and appoints Neil McEvoy the GM. At this point it is the only thing that makes sense.

maxlion
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Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:08 pm

DanoT wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:58 pm
I am predicting that next week or it might be after the GC, Wally announces his retirement and appoints Neil McEvoy the GM. At this point it is the only thing that makes sense.
I agree. I would prefer Ed Hervey, but it is impossible to go through a proper search and hiring process under the circumstances. That leaves Wally or Neil, and I think Wally walks away (from the gm/coaching roles at least).

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