Stampeders 27 - Lions 13, Post-Stats and Comments

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David
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TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:27 pm
Khari Jones need to help Jennings by calling for some quick safe passes to build his confidence instead of having him sit in the pocket behind a porous offensive line and going long.
Khari tried two running backs with the check down option to Rainey with some success. But why not more double tight end formations? More screen passes to Lumbala? Play action, especially with Johnson running so well? Pump fakes to freeze defenders? Throw the occasional fly pattern to Williams to loosen defenders in the box? Jet sweep to Rainey with proper blocking schemes?

We're just so bereft of imagination and creativity, it's sad.


DH :cool:
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CardiacKid
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David wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:15 pm
TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:27 pm
Khari Jones need to help Jennings by calling for some quick safe passes to build his confidence instead of having him sit in the pocket behind a porous offensive line and going long.
Khari tried two running backs with the check down option to Rainey with some success. But why not more double tight end formations? More screen passes to Lumbala? Play action, especially with Johnson running so well? Pump fakes to freeze defenders? Throw the occasional fly pattern to Williams to loosen defenders in the box? Jet sweep to Rainey with proper blocking schemes?

We're just so bereft of imagination and creativity, it's sad.


DH :cool:
I sometimes wonder if a consultant would benefit the Lions offence? A fresh voice and source of ideas; perhaps a "QB whisperer" as well to work with a clearly struggling JJ10? It's not without precedence; I believe Hufnagel did a stint as a guest coach with the Lions and Jeff Garcia fulfilled a similar role with the Als. A guy like Tom Clements perhaps?
It really does seem the well has run dry for the brain trust on offence.
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David
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I hear Chaps might have some free time..... :wink:

Really though, it may be unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of Khari. JJ10 clearly doesn't trust his eyes right now. But we also don't know what they're trying to implement in meetings that may be getting shot down by the higher pay grade. It's hard to believe that with all the offensive experience of Jones and Bellefeuille as well as input from our de facto QB coach Travis that we can't get a little more imaginative.


DH :cool:
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Blitz
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I have no idea why anyone would want to be quarterbacking our offence in this game. The offensive line was porous, the receivers were covered, the defensive backs were jumping our routes continuously.

The reality is that we are not coached well enough to beat West teams. We lost to Edmonton earlier in the year, with Travis Lulay at quarterback and playing his best football of his career.

Jennings doesn't appear to be the same quarterback as last season and no wonder why. Its happened to all of them in a Leo uniform in the Buono regime. Dave Dickenson was confused in the 2007 Final before being released as a bashed, concussed quarterback who was a shell of his former self. He spent more time injured than healthy in his five years in B.C.

Printers was released needing knee reconstructive surgery and Buck Pierce was let go due to his injury record. Lulay has spent more time injured than healthy during his Leo career, as did Dickenson.

The toll is definitely showing on Jennings, as it has on Leo starting quarterbacks before him. He has begun to develop bad habits as did Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, and Lulay during their eras as our starting quarterback.

That toll results in something that looks like PTSD. Our quarterbacks start to break down physically and mentally over time. Television commentators like to mention that Wally 'develops' quarterbacks (although he doesn't coach them) but they don't mention that he also destroys them.

How does he do that? Well they usually start off great. Then the hits, sacks, and constant pressure begin to wear them down. Dorazio's offensive line 'experimenting' means more and more hits and pressures. The quarterback tries more and more to 'make plays' as a predictable offence, poor offensive line play, and well covered receivers make the quarterback position ever challenging.

Wally then will scapegoat the quarterback saying that he needs to 'get rid of the football quicker'. He has done that publically with Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Lulay, and Jennings.

We didn't lose this game due to quarterbacking. We lost this game at the line of scrimmage, we lost this game due to coaching, and we lost this game because our systems are not good enough.

Burnham was well covered all game and so was Manny. We have no idea how to use Chris Williams or Chris Rainey.

Its a mess and its a mess due to Wally. We've played in only one Grey Cup game since 2006. Wally has been our GM throughout that period of time and he has either been our HC or the HC was his appointed by him. Its his coaching staff and his personnel selections, his systems, and his philosophy.

I didn't expect us to beat Calgary. There is a reason why Calgary had outscored their opponents 52-10 in the first quarter of their previous 7 games. They pre-scout rather than preach about execution.

Why is it that we should know about opposing quarterbacks tendencies and weaknesses and don't seem to. Why is it that opposing defenses can key on our quarterback's tendencies and weaknesses.

The criticism being made that Jennings held onto the football too long is the same one that was levelled at Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, and Lulay in the past. In fact Buono complained about Lulay holding onto the football too long in a game this season.

It would be a treat to see our quarterback have enough time to throw the football for a change.

For those B.C. Lion fans hoping that we would see the light and the resurrection of our Leos this season didn't consider that rigid, black and white thinking resulted in the Dark Ages lasting so long.

Perhaps we need a consultant standing in a cherry picker overlooking Wally's practices and writing notes. :yahoo:
Ed Willes: Stuttering, Spluttering Lions Offence Needs a Rebuild

CALGARY — Back at the start of the season, the only question about the B.C. Lions’ offence was how great they’d be as they terrorized the rest of the CFL.

Remember? When Chris Williams was fully healed, they’d have four All-Star calibre receivers to go with a durable, versatile running back in Jeremiah Johnson. Chris Rainey, the dazzling home-run threat, would provide the X-factor and Jonathon Jennings, the young gunslinger of a quarterback, would make it all work with his NFL-grade arm.

We remind you of this because, Saturday afternoon in Calgary, the Lions’ offence dropped another cow pie at McMahon, failing to sustain drives, failing to generate field position, failing to ease the pressure on the defence and, ultimately, failing to score a touchdown.

The resulting 27-13 loss left the Lions in last place in the Western Conference with six games left on their schedule.

“Offensively, it’s going to take us pulling this train if we’re looking to make the playoffs,” said Manny Arceneaux, one of those four receivers who are supposed to be lighting up the league.

“We’ve got the weapons, man, but we’ve got to let our natural talents take over. We’ve got to be clicking like an old school car. We’re cranking and it ain’t coming on (Arceneaux coughs at this point). We’ve got to (and he purrs like a Lamborghini).”

If only the offence was that entertaining and imaginative.

On his first pass of the game, Jennings served up an interception to Calgary’s Ciante Evans, setting in motion a series of events which have become depressingly familiar to the Lions.

The Stampeders didn’t make any mistakes. The Lions made a boatload. They also abandoned an effective running game in the first quarter which left a frazzled, overmatched Jennings to deal with the Stamps’ pass rush and their air-tight secondary.

The results weren’t pretty. The Lions would have five two-and-outs in the game and didn’t record more than two first down on a drive until midway through the fourth quarter. They had just three plays of over 20 yards.
Jennings is now 1-6 in his career against the Stamps. He was asked if the Evans’ interception impacted his confidence.

“Not at all,” he answered. “I felt confident the whole game. I felt my eyes were pretty good the whole night. It was just a tough night.”

Johnson, meanwhile, rushed for 42 yards in the first quarter but accumulated just 10 more yards over the final 45 minutes.“You tell me,” he answered when asked if he was frustrated by his inactivity over the final three quarters.

“I thought our running game was going well in the first half. I wish we could have kept running the ball and given J.J. more time to throw the ball. But that’s the way the
game goes sometimes.”
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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CardiacKid
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:13 pm
This was a defensive struggle. The difference was quarterbacking, although you might not know at first glance by looking at the stats. Bo Levi Mitchell completed just 16 of 31 passes (51.6%), almost identical to his numbers in the first meeting between these teams (15 of 31) and also almost identical to Jonathon Jennings' numbers for this game (15 of 29, 51.7%). Yet looking at the two quarterbacks, Mitchell's experience and poise showed through. He got rid of the ball quickly and threw 2 TD passes against no interceptions, while Jennings threw no TD passes and 3 interceptions.

The Stampeders know, as does everyone by now, that Jennings has not been seeing the field well and is ineffective when pressured. They game-planned accordingly. Jennings was locked in on his favourite receivers all night, and held the ball too long when they were double and triple covered. He targeted Bryan Burnham 9 times and Manny Arceneaux 5 times. Chris Rainey also had 5 targets and 5 catches, 4 of them in the second half when the Lions started checking down to him. Marco Iannuzzi (2 targets, 2 catches)), Shaq Johnson (1 target, 1 catch), Nick Moore (1 target, 0 catches) and Chris Williams (no targets) were afterthoughts. On one INT intended for Arceneaux in triple coverage, Iannuzzi was open nearby on the sideline.

In a credit to B.C.'s defence, Calgary scored just 3 points off Jennings' turnovers but they added 10 points set up by Roy Finch punt returns, 3 off Rob Maver's third-down run and 7 off a brain cramp by Anthony Gaitor, but that was a rare mistake on a day when the defence did everything it could to keep the Lions in the game, only allowing 4 points otherwise.

Both defences did a good job of pressuring the QB. Calgary had 10 pressures on Jennings, and 4 sacks, while the Lions had 8 pressures and one sack. Boatright, with 3 pressures and Brooks with 2 were both prominent. B.C.'s offensive line has been much-criticized this year but I thought they played especially well, with David Foucault making his first start at right tackle. I couldn't fault the O-line for any of the Calgary sacks. That was primarily Jennings hanging on to the ball too long.

I thought Jennings showed a lot of confidence last week against Montreal, completing his first 11 passes and finding open receivers all over the field. This game proves that he still has a lot to learn, especially against top divisional opponents who know his tendencies and weaknesses.
The defence totally deserves props for how they played; it was very impressive how they kept the team in this.

And aside from Gaitor's obvious brain fart, I thought the secondary did really well. Perhaps they have settled into this formation after getting bounced around from position to position? I thought Purifoy had his best game in awhile which was nice to see, the guy can make plays but has been playing unfamiliar spots too often this year.

If and when Bazzie gets here, hopefully the QB pressure he can provide will also help out the secondary further.
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CardiacKid
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Blitz wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:37 am
I have no idea why anyone would want to be quarterbacking our offence in this game. The offensive line was porous, the receivers were covered, the defensive backs were jumping our routes continuously.

The reality is that we are not coached well enough to beat West teams. We lost to Edmonton earlier in the year, with Travis Lulay at quarterback and playing his best football of his career.

Jennings doesn't appear to be the same quarterback as last season and no wonder why. Its happened to all of them in a Leo uniform in the Buono regime. Dave Dickenson was confused in the 2007 Final before being released as a bashed, concussed quarterback who was a shell of his former self. He spent more time injured than healthy in his five years in B.C.

Printers was released needing knee reconstructive surgery and Buck Pierce was let go due to his injury record. Lulay has spent more time injured than healthy during his Leo career, as did Dickenson.

The toll is definitely showing on Jennings, as it has on Leo starting quarterbacks before him. He has begun to develop bad habits as did Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, and Lulay during their eras as our starting quarterback.

That toll results in something that looks like PTSD. Our quarterbacks start to break down physically and mentally over time. Television commentators like to mention that Wally 'develops' quarterbacks (although he doesn't coach them) but they don't mention that he also destroys them.

How does he do that? Well they usually start off great. Then the hits, sacks, and constant pressure begin to wear them down. Dorazio's offensive line 'experimenting' means more and more hits and pressures. The quarterback tries more and more to 'make plays' as a predictable offence, poor offensive line play, and well covered receivers make the quarterback position ever challenging.

Wally then will scapegoat the quarterback saying that he needs to 'get rid of the football quicker'. He has done that publically with Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Lulay, and Jennings.

We didn't lose this game due to quarterbacking. We lost this game at the line of scrimmage, we lost this game due to coaching, and we lost this game because our systems are not good enough.

Burnham was well covered all game and so was Manny. We have no idea how to use Chris Williams or Chris Rainey.

Its a mess and its a mess due to Wally. We've played in only one Grey Cup game since 2006. Wally has been our GM throughout that period of time and he has either been our HC or the HC was his appointed by him. Its his coaching staff and his personnel selections, his systems, and his philosophy.

I didn't expect us to beat Calgary. There is a reason why Calgary had outscored their opponents 52-10 in the first quarter of their previous 7 games. They pre-scout rather than preach about execution.

Why is it that we should know about opposing quarterbacks tendencies and weaknesses and don't seem to. Why is it that opposing defenses can key on our quarterback's tendencies and weaknesses.

The criticism being made that Jennings held onto the football too long is the same one that was levelled at Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, and Lulay in the past. In fact Buono complained about Lulay holding onto the football too long in a game this season.

It would be a treat to see our quarterback have enough time to throw the football for a change.

For those B.C. Lion fans hoping that we would see the light and the resurrection of our Leos this season didn't consider that rigid, black and white thinking resulted in the Dark Ages lasting so long.

Perhaps we need a consultant standing in a cherry picker overlooking Wally's practices and writing notes. :yahoo:
Ed Willes: Stuttering, Spluttering Lions Offence Needs a Rebuild

CALGARY — Back at the start of the season, the only question about the B.C. Lions’ offence was how great they’d be as they terrorized the rest of the CFL.

Remember? When Chris Williams was fully healed, they’d have four All-Star calibre receivers to go with a durable, versatile running back in Jeremiah Johnson. Chris Rainey, the dazzling home-run threat, would provide the X-factor and Jonathon Jennings, the young gunslinger of a quarterback, would make it all work with his NFL-grade arm.

We remind you of this because, Saturday afternoon in Calgary, the Lions’ offence dropped another cow pie at McMahon, failing to sustain drives, failing to generate field position, failing to ease the pressure on the defence and, ultimately, failing to score a touchdown.

The resulting 27-13 loss left the Lions in last place in the Western Conference with six games left on their schedule.

“Offensively, it’s going to take us pulling this train if we’re looking to make the playoffs,” said Manny Arceneaux, one of those four receivers who are supposed to be lighting up the league.

“We’ve got the weapons, man, but we’ve got to let our natural talents take over. We’ve got to be clicking like an old school car. We’re cranking and it ain’t coming on (Arceneaux coughs at this point). We’ve got to (and he purrs like a Lamborghini).”

If only the offence was that entertaining and imaginative.

On his first pass of the game, Jennings served up an interception to Calgary’s Ciante Evans, setting in motion a series of events which have become depressingly familiar to the Lions.

The Stampeders didn’t make any mistakes. The Lions made a boatload. They also abandoned an effective running game in the first quarter which left a frazzled, overmatched Jennings to deal with the Stamps’ pass rush and their air-tight secondary.

The results weren’t pretty. The Lions would have five two-and-outs in the game and didn’t record more than two first down on a drive until midway through the fourth quarter. They had just three plays of over 20 yards.
Jennings is now 1-6 in his career against the Stamps. He was asked if the Evans’ interception impacted his confidence.

“Not at all,” he answered. “I felt confident the whole game. I felt my eyes were pretty good the whole night. It was just a tough night.”

Johnson, meanwhile, rushed for 42 yards in the first quarter but accumulated just 10 more yards over the final 45 minutes.“You tell me,” he answered when asked if he was frustrated by his inactivity over the final three quarters.

“I thought our running game was going well in the first half. I wish we could have kept running the ball and given J.J. more time to throw the ball. But that’s the way the
game goes sometimes.”
The talent on offence seems like one more loss like this and they will be in open revolt.
Blitz
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The talent on offence seems like one more loss like this and they will be in open revolt. Cardiac Kid
A few players went public before the bye week and even Travis said the 'staff' needed to take a look at things.

But a win against Montreal quieted thngs down. Johnson expressed his frustration after the game.

Rainey must be completely frustrated. We don't know how to utilize him on offence, other than hand off to him on the inside zone read, throw a quick pass to him in the flat, or line him up as a slotback and give him a curl pattern.

Rainey also has the worst punt return average in the league. Yes, that is Chris Rainey with the worst punt return average in the league and its been that way all season so far. He is averaging 7.9 yds. per return. Calgary is averaging 17.5 yds. per return. Last year, before Wally got involved in the punt return game, Chris Rainey led the CFL in punt return average.

There are some key stats which reflect why our offence is 6th in scoring in the CFL while our defense is ranked 6th in the CFL also.

Those stats are:

1. We've given up the most sacks in the CFL.

2. We've turned the football over the most in the CFL

3. We're 8th in sacking opposing quarterbacks.

A team can have tremendous talent in the so called skilled positions but if you are not a very good team on the offensive and defensive line, those skills are often negated.

Jonathan Jennings has had a tough season so far. But Travis Lulay had a tough season in 2015 and that was not just because of his shoulder. Lulay did not look like the same quarterback of 2011 or 2012, in terms of poise and composure. In 2015 Lulay completed 62% of his passes and threw 10 interceptions and only 12 touchdowns, with a miserable quarterback average of 84.4.

Injuries, constant pressure avoiding the rush, hits, sacks, constantly having to 'make plays' while defenses know what is coming, eventually wears a Leos starting quarterback down. Put Bo Levi Mitchell in a Leos uniform and his results would be very different. He'd have suffered many more injuries, his receivers would be covered like blankets when he played good teams, and he would spend most games on his butt or running for his life.

Wally has only ever been as good as his assistants and the people around him. In Calgary he had Hufnagel, Cortez, Shivers, and a pocket full of money to pay players like Flutie a million dollars a season. Wally came to B.C. and he had Ackles and O'Billovich and Ackles went out and got Dickenson for Wally's first season. From 2005-2007 Wally had Dave Ritchie coaching the defense and his defense was the key to our 2006 Grey Cup season.

But since 2007, there has been not been an Ackles or an O'Billovich or a Ritchie and the results have shown up just as they did in Wally's last two seasons in Calgary when he didn't have a Hufnagel or a Shivers or a Flutie, Garcia or Dickenson and his team went 8-10 and then went 6-12 the following season and missed the playoffs.

But it was Wally's choice to have Khari Jones coach the offence and Mark Washington to coach the defense and to bring back Dorazio to coach the offensive line. It was also Wally's decision to return as HC. I think he allowed that 2011 season to cloud his judgment. There had been a chorus of calls to step down as HC after the 2010 season. He would have been wise to stay retired from the sidelines (and from the cherry picker as well).

We could still sneak into the playoffs and then who knows what could happen. But the trend is not our friend. The bye week didn't result in any significant changes to our strategies (but the why would one ever think that would happen anyway, when everything is an 'execution problem' when things go wrong.

I'd day its back to the drawing board but we never go back to the drawing board. Our predictablilty is a factor in our interception rage, as is the pass rush. Against good defensive coordinators our receivers are covered like blankets and they jump our routes. Jennings first interception involved the defender running Burnham's route ahead of him.

But predictability has been a problem for a long time for our Leos. Its cost us a lot of playoff games. Claybrooks, who learned under Stubler, changes his defense up against different offences. Washington gives us the same old, each game. Sometimes It works but often it doesn't.

On offence, its even worse. The fact that our offence has put up so many yards of offence this season is a tribute to our talent and not our scheme. Its our talent that allows a Lulay or a Jennings to escape and 'make a play' or its a Burnham or Manny making a great catch or a Rainey or a Jeremiah Johnson making a great play or its a pancake block by a Steward opening a hole. But we don't fool anyone. The element of surprise, crucial to an offence is not there.

Doing the same old thing and expecting a different result is the definition of stupid. But there are a lot of people who do the same dum things in life over and over again.

Often, they are not stupid people. But they think they are always right and they are black and white thinkers. Their egos also don't enable them to believe that a different way might be better.

That type of thinking with our coaching staff is the biggest issue our Leos face - more than blocking, tackling, quarterbacking, pass rushing etc. There is more than one way of doing things but if you are locked into one way of playing football, no matter what your personnel is, this is the result.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
TheLionKing
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It's the same thing we've been talking about for the past several years and yet still no improvement. Same old, same old. As far as I'm concerned, Buono's days are numbered. The sooner he and his coaching staff is gone the better for this fan.
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WestCoastJoe
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First pass play after some successful running plays. Evans jumps the route. Not only is Burnham covered, when the pass arrives, but two other Stampeders are well prepared and close on the play extremely quickly.


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John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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WestCoastJoe
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Burnham is in his route, as they have practiced, and as the play is designed. Evans is moving forward, fast. Advantage Evans. Stampeders sitting on the route, jumping it. Picked off. ("Here is how they run the play. Sit back. It will look like he is open. At the release of the ball, not before, jump the route. You will have backup. Do not bump into the receiver.")

Jennings post-game says he was not discouraged nor had his confidence shaken. To his credit he has to say that. The film would seem to say something different. As noted a few times, it seems like "deer in the headlights." One can sympathize. Hanging on to the ball too long? Guys are covered. Huge pressure coming. Hang on, take the hit, or throw the ball up for grabs? Choose your poison. Jennings did both. He took a huge amount of hits. He threw interceptions.

A few year's back Lulay's solution was to get out of town, using his running ability. Improvise. This year he took it up a notch or two or three. He could break down the pass defence. Amazing. There are gaps there, but with a well-prepped defence, against a well known offence, your quarterback needs the precision of a surgeon, and the fast thinking of a chess master. The running game can help immensely.

IMO Lulay was perfoming miracles with his efficiency this season. Yes, an incredible quarterback can break down an extremely well prepared defence, even if they are sitting on your plays, as they have scouted on film. It can be like sandlot ball, 2 players per side. Defender knows the routes. Can the QB make the pass successfully? Yes. Not easy with 12 per side, but possible with out of this world play.

[One recalls the mauling Bears' defence of 1985. One loss all year, that to the Dolphins. Marino was under huge pressure. But, as a comparatively immobile quarterback, he rolled out, passed super fast. The Dolphins had very effective detailed game prep against the famed Bears' "46 Defence." Marino was super sharp. Even at that, he was sacked three times, and threw an interception. The Dolphins won the game. (There is a thread on this site about that defence, from a few years back. That was all out attack, a hyper aggressive defence.)]

Just IMO ...


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John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
leo4life
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Long time season ticket holder here.Will not renew if Bouno and same staff return next season.Time to get some fresh faces and ideas back in the den.
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The_Pauser
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leo4life wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:24 pm
Long time season ticket holder here.Will not renew if Bouno and same staff return next season.Time to get some fresh faces and ideas back in the den.
Buono will be retiring at the end of the season. He won't be back as coach or GM.
Roar you Lions roar!
leo4life
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Bouno wont be back but rumour has it he will name Washington as next HC.Which would mean more of the same as he would keep most or all of the current staff.However if this poor play continues the team couldnt sell bringing back the same staff.
TheLionKing
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leo4life wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:38 pm
Bouno wont be back but rumour has it he will name Washington as next HC.Which would mean more of the same as he would keep most or all of the current staff.However if this poor play continues the team couldnt sell bringing back the same staff.
Hope the new owners will nixed that idea. I've had enough of this coaching staff.
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WestCoastJoe
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Pass play. Cut blocks by the O Line. One shot at your man. If the DL keep their feet, they will have a jail break pass rush.



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John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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