Quarterback conflict

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lionbacker1851
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:00 am

After two years of seeing quarterback buddies, do we have another Dickenson/Printers, Doug Flutie/Rob Johnson situation?? Is it responsible for Lions overall poor play ??
Will this destroy JJ10's career or can he pick himself up ??? Is Wally at fault for this ??

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:58 am

lionbacker1851 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:00 am
After two years of seeing quarterback buddies, do we have another Dickenson/Printers, Doug Flutie/Rob Johnson situation?? Is it responsible for Lions overall poor play ??
Will this destroy JJ10's career or can he pick himself up ??? Is Wally at fault for this ??
My answer for all of the above is "no".

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Rammer
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:19 am

I blame Wally for many problems that arise, but not this. He has to place the best QB in the starting position. If you ask me Jennings isn't 100% on his throwing arm, having very similar issues Lulay had with his throws, just not 100% strength so throws are going over receivers.

So for now with the healthy arm of Lulay the Lions will forward in the season. Jennings will be waiting in the wings when he is called upon. Hopefully he will have recovered enough to find the form that he and the Lions expect from him.
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:39 am

Rammer wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:19 am
I blame Wally for many problems that arise, but not this. He has to place the best QB in the starting position. If you ask me Jennings isn't 100% on his throwing arm, having very similar issues Lulay had with his throws, just not 100% strength so throws are going over receivers.

So for now with the healthy arm of Lulay the Lions will forward in the season. Jennings will be waiting in the wings when he is called upon. Hopefully he will have recovered enough to find the form that he and the Lions expect from him.
I found myself wondering the same thing re: Jennings' shoulder not being 100%. In that first game back he "floated" several balls resulting in overthrows. Jennings never floats the ball out to targets.
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:48 am

Jennings' numbers haven't been good since he came back from his shoulder injury. I don't believe that's the only reason but it's understandable and the same thing happened to Lulay in the past. Now Lulay has the better arm and he's using his experience to make the best use of his talent and that of his teammates.

Here are Jennings' passing stats before his injury:
2015: 66% completions for an average of 9.3 yards per attempt, with 15 TDs, 5 INTs
2016: 67% completions for an average of 9.4 yards per attempt, with 27 TDs, 15 INTs
2017: 68% completions for an average of 7.9 yards per attempt, with 2 TDs, 1 INT

And after his injury (including the Hamilton game where he was injured throwing his first pass):
2017: 58% completions for an average of 6.7 yards per attempt, with 2 TDs, 8 INTs

As cited in the Ottawa post-game stats and comments thread, Jennings has the worst quarterback rating in the league by far when under pressure. Teams know this and talk openly about trying to pressure him and force bad throws into coverage. Ottawa DBs coach Ike Charlton also talked before last week's game that Jennings is not seeing the field well, which is another reason he makes throws that he shouldn't.

Since Jennings' injury, he does not seem to have the strength to make the throws into tight coverage that he did in the past. He has become the dink and dunk QB who can't throw downfield, while Lulay leads the league with a 56.7% completion percentage for throws of 20 yards or more. Here are the comparative passing stats for the two QBs at various distances this year:

0-8 yards: Lulay 78.3%, Jennings 77.5%
9-19 yards: Lulay 74.4%, Jennings 52.0%
20+ yards: Lulay 56.7%, Jennings 33.3%

Jennings knows his performance wasn't good enough. I don't think there's a lot of ego involved in the relationship between the two QBs or with Wally. Lulay gives the team a better chance to win right now. Everyone can see that. Given the nature of the quarterback position and Lulay's history, he may get hurt again and Jennings would have to come in and lead the team to the playoffs. The Lions have reached the Grey Cup in the past by using two QBs, and they won it in 1994 with Kent Austin and Danny McManus sharing duties due to injuries. Jennings will get another chance. He just has to be ready.
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:09 pm

No controversy in my opinion. Jennings is clearly struggling whether it's his injury or playcalling. Lulay gives the Lions the best chance for a win at the moment.

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:40 pm

I would take it so far to say Wally had gone out of his way to avoid making the change. I would have pulled Jennings at halftime of the Calgary game and still think going the distance with him likely cost them the victory.
I also would have pulled him against Ottawa sooner as the game was getting away from BC.

I was frustrated but also understood Wally had his eye on the bigger picture and that's one QB is 25 and under contract next season and the other is 33 and will be a FA in 2018. He gave Jennings every chance to re-discover his form but as Wally said the team had run out of "mulligans" and a change had to be made.

The "mulligans" theory was fine but the Lions were also going through the teeth of their Western schedule. There was one chance to beat Calgary at home this season.

I don't think Jennings is 100 percent but he was hardly lighting it up prior to getting hurt. I think teams were figuring out his tendencies and he was struggling to adjust with not much helping coming from the offensive coaches.

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:03 pm

SammyGreene wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:40 pm
I don't think Jennings is 100 percent but he was hardly lighting it up prior to getting hurt. I think teams were figuring out his tendencies and he was struggling to adjust with not much helping coming from the offensive coaches.
Agree completely--JJ10 isn't 100% healthy and he was rushed back because of TL's rib injury. Even worse is when he did interviews since coming back, he's clearly feeling the pressure to perform--it shows in the nervous tone in his voice.

On the subject of this thread, I disagree this will lead to a QB controversy. The Lions will be faced with a tougher decision at seasons end if TL wants to return and for how many $$$, but that's the extent of it.

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Toppy Vann
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Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:31 pm

lionbacker1851 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:00 am
After two years of seeing quarterback buddies, do we have another Dickenson/Printers, Doug Flutie/Rob Johnson situation?? Is it responsible for Lions overall poor play ??
Will this destroy JJ10's career or can he pick himself up ??? Is Wally at fault for this ??
No to any controversy here.

No, to Jennings being the key to overall quality of play - but as QB in his role a QB is a VIP.

No, to destroying his career BUT many players before him in this situation have seen these things to be career enders. Quite frankly, I worry for Zach Collaros given how he's made up versus worry that Jennings might be damaged goods for the long term.

No to Wally having fault here EXCEPT maybe some criticism for not moving a bit earlier given the two comparisons in W-L and QB ratings.

I think Jennings isn't made up like many others so will be fine with a change here as he's the future and Travis Lulay is towards the latter years.

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:58 pm

I was chatting with Gulio Carravatta about Jennings' tribulations and he mentioned Zach Collaros as a comparison and contrast. He made mention that Collaros is extremely competitive and intense (much like his former coach Austin) and is the kind of guy who could be prone to dumping on his team-mates when things are not going perfectly. After awhile, the guys on the receiving end just start tuning that noise out and don't respond.

On the other hand, Jennings has shown he is capable of keeping his cool and unless he is a complete Jekyll and Hyde character, I can't see him berating anyone except himself when things aren't going well. And that can be pretty damaging too; the young man attempting to do it all on his own and carry the entire team to victory.

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:31 pm

Jennings got hurt. First play vs Hamilton. But I do not think we gave him good pass protection all year. We did not focus on quick pass play calls. We wanted to go deep. Defences had adjusted. It was an injury waiting to happen.

Edm over BC ... JJ10 22/34, 264 yards, 0 TDs, 0 Ints

BC over Tor ... JJ10 23/35, 301 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int

BC over Mtl ... JJ10 28/39, 288 yards, 1 TD, 0 Ints

BC over Ham ... JJ10 injured on play 1.

I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good. And this with defences knowing his and our tendencies.

Sask over BC ... First game back for JJ10 vs the Riders in the rematch. We were not ready, not prepared, and Regina was ready. JJ10 was 14/30, 195 yards, 1 TD, 4 Ints. JJ10 was in shock.
...............

That adds up to a tough row for Jennings. We were not well prepped for games. They had a good book on him. And they have had a good book on our team tendencies and vulnerabilities forever.
...............

Lulay has been a revelation this year. His arm is better than ever. He is as mobile as ever. He reads the defence better. He knows when to vacate the pocket. He can find check down receivers.
...............

Both Lulay and Jennings are ultra class guys, team first. And they are friends. No controversy on that level.
...............

As long as we give up too many pressures, hits and sacks we are extremely vulnerable.

JJ10 gets to watch for now. Could be and should be good for him. Take the pressure off.
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Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:11 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:31 pm


Edm over BC ... JJ10 22/34, 264 yards, 0 TDs, 0 Ints

BC over Tor ... JJ10 23/35, 301 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int

BC over Mtl ... JJ10 28/39, 288 yards, 1 TD, 0 Ints

BC over Ham ... JJ10 injured on play 1.

I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good.
I find it surprising that you would say that considering that he was at the bottom of starters in passing efficiency and QUAR rating all along. I though he was fantastic last year, but haven't seen the same at all this year
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David
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Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:21 am

At this point, I am more worried about Jennings' throwing shoulder than I am about his ability to read defenses. He had a shoulder separation IIRC prior to coming to BC, then hurt it against Calgary in a playoff game, and now this year against Hamilton. I believe he will learn to adjust to the 3 man rush and teams dropping guys off in zone and cover 2, but a bad shoulder is more worrisome.

I do think the whole Travis thing has gotten in his head. Sure they're great friends, but if he's more on the sensitive/insecure side, he could be affected by Travis's stellar performance this year (he's likely aware of the "quarterbacking controversy" from the media, knows how he's held in such high regard in the community and locker room, and probably let the chants of "Luuu-laaay" from the stands affect him, trying at times to do too much). Hopefully this is all just a sophomore jinx that will pass.


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WestCoastJoe
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Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:19 am

KnowItAll wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:11 pm
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:31 pm


Edm over BC ... JJ10 22/34, 264 yards, 0 TDs, 0 Ints

BC over Tor ... JJ10 23/35, 301 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int

BC over Mtl ... JJ10 28/39, 288 yards, 1 TD, 0 Ints

BC over Ham ... JJ10 injured on play 1.

I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good.
I find it surprising that you would say that considering that he was at the bottom of starters in passing efficiency and QUAR rating all along. I though he was fantastic last year, but haven't seen the same at all this year
It is just an opinion, KnowItAll.

I still think the opinion has validity. The league has figured out, to some degree, how to slow down Jennings. That is no knock on him. But our team has to vary things. It has to find ways for him to be effective. I don't think we did those things. He came out trying for the long pass, against defences geared to stop that. He faced a lot of pass rush pressure. Without us adjusting, I would think it is to be expected that his numbers would be down somewhat.

Games 2 and 3, prior to his injury. Those numbers look pretty good.

He is the same guy who looked so good last year. He got killed vs Regina. That sealed the deal, IMO. His confidence got damaged. He could not see the field as well. When he came back, perhaps his arm was not 100%.

What do we expect from him? 300 yards each game? 3 TD passes. No interceptions. Dodge the pass rush?
I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good.


I will stand by that opinion. Pretty good. Last year he was excellent.

And Lulay is the right guy at this time. I would say our offense, with its predictability, and with its oftentimes poor pass protection, puts any quarterback at risk. Risk of poor performance. Risk of injury.

I would suggest Lulay has performed some kind of miracle to do what he has done this year. Lightning quick reads and decisions. Pocket escapes at the right time. Accurate, strong throws. And I would suggest he is lifting his teammates, putting them on his back, to an extent.

IMO our offence does not fool anybody. Give Wally this --> When it is executed well, our offence can be very hard to stop, even if it is predictable and relatively unchanging. Would that we upgraded it to modern times, as discussed on here many, many times.

Just IMO, KnowItAll. I will stand by that opinion. :thup:
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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KnowItAll
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Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:38 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:19 am
KnowItAll wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:11 pm
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:31 pm


Edm over BC ... JJ10 22/34, 264 yards, 0 TDs, 0 Ints

BC over Tor ... JJ10 23/35, 301 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int

BC over Mtl ... JJ10 28/39, 288 yards, 1 TD, 0 Ints

BC over Ham ... JJ10 injured on play 1.

I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good.
I find it surprising that you would say that considering that he was at the bottom of starters in passing efficiency and QUAR rating all along. I though he was fantastic last year, but haven't seen the same at all this year
It is just an opinion, KnowItAll.

I still think the opinion has validity. The league has figured out, to some degree, how to slow down Jennings. That is no knock on him. But our team has to vary things. It has to find ways for him to be effective. I don't think we did those things. He came out trying for the long pass, against defences geared to stop that. He faced a lot of pass rush pressure. Without us adjusting, I would think it is to be expected that his numbers would be down somewhat.

Games 2 and 3, prior to his injury. Those numbers look pretty good.

He is the same guy who looked so good last year. He got killed vs Regina. That sealed the deal, IMO. His confidence got damaged. He could not see the field as well. When he came back, perhaps his arm was not 100%.

What do we expect from him? 300 yards each game? 3 TD passes. No interceptions. Dodge the pass rush?
I would say prior to his injury he was pretty good.


I will stand by that opinion. Pretty good. Last year he was excellent.

And Lulay is the right guy at this time. I would say our offense, with its predictability, and with its oftentimes poor pass protection, puts any quarterback at risk. Risk of poor performance. Risk of injury.

I would suggest Lulay has performed some kind of miracle to do what he has done this year. Lightning quick reads and decisions. Pocket escapes at the right time. Accurate, strong throws. And I would suggest he is lifting his teammates, putting them on his back, to an extent.

IMO our offence does not fool anybody. Give Wally this --> When it is executed well, our offence can be very hard to stop, even if it is predictable and relatively unchanging. Would that we upgraded it to modern times, as discussed on here many, many times.

Just IMO, KnowItAll. I will stand by that opinion. :thup:
works for me :)
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