RedBlacks 31 - Lions 24, Post-game Stats and Comments

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CardiacKid
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:37 pm

I am sure the players were reminded there will be a 1000+ players looking for work very soon....

TheLionKing
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/buono-at-th ... er~1190700

Will Wally create another Dickenson /Printers' controversy ?

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WestCoastJoe
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Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:19 pm

Worse than I thought re our playoff chances ...

Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg seemingly out of reach.

Regina on our heels with 2 games in hand. 2 points behind. Holders of the series between us.

As things stand now, would we have good hopes in the playoffs? Not too likely, methinks.

On the other hand, Lulay brought us back from 0 and 5 in 2011, all the way to the Grey Cup title. I think our offence could do it. I cannot say I think our defence, as presently constructed and populated, could do it.

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John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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CardiacKid
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:19 am

TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/buono-at-th ... er~1190700

Will Wally create another Dickenson /Printers' controversy ?
In chatting with a member of the travelling media, Wally made the decision to make Travis the de facto starter before the team hit the bus for the airport. I think the positive dynamic between Lulay and Jennings will circumvent any of the downside witnessed with the Dickensen/Printers situation.

Something had to be done in order to save the overall confidence of the team. And I think/hope this is the right thing for JJ10; to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch.

Also heard from an inside source that the Leo's are actively monitoring Brett Boyko's progress down south and are working the phones. It looks like Boyko is on the bubble and not too likely to survive the NFL cuts.

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SammyGreene
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:23 am

The unknown twists and turns of professional sports.
This season was supposed to be about the further growth of an exciting gun-slinging 25-year-old QB that the marketing team had rightly hitched its wagon to — the "Who Is?" campaign, bobbleheads. Meanwhile, the 33-year-old continues to give him support and prepares himself for retirement and perhaps a coaching role.
Pretty sure that's the blueprint Wally has and part of the reason why he has been patient waiting for JJ to regain his 2016 form. Now with the season slipping away the keys are likely going to be handed to the rejuvenated Lulay.
Question for later but what happens if he continues his form and leads the Lions to a strong finish and post-season? I doubt it because it's going to take more than just an efficient QB to fix this team. But what a QB mess Wally could be walking away from.
Really hoping Jennings gets the opportunity in a relief role to show what he is capable of and gets his career back on track. As bad as the 5-5 record is, the demise of their "franchise" QB is even worse.

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Toppy Vann
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:56 am

CardiacKid wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:19 am
TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/buono-at-th ... er~1190700

Will Wally create another Dickenson /Printers' controversy ?
In chatting with a member of the travelling media, Wally made the decision to make Travis the de facto starter before the team hit the bus for the airport. I think the positive dynamic between Lulay and Jennings will circumvent any of the downside witnessed with the Dickensen/Printers situation.

Something had to be done in order to save the overall confidence of the team. And I think/hope this is the right thing for JJ10; to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch.

Also heard from an inside source that the Leo's are actively monitoring Brett Boyko's progress down south and are working the phones. It looks like Boyko is on the bubble and not too likely to survive the NFL cuts.
What was the atmosphere like in the Lion fan contingent when the Lions started to move the ball second half?

Maybe Wally should stay on as HC until Lulay retires as clearly he'd be the kind of coach Dave Dickensen has turned out to be. In fact I'd see Lulay being a faster transition to HC than Dave EXCEPT for the fact that Hufnagel really brought Dave along nicely and Dave had a good role model to follow. Lulay in BC would have to be his own man as he's not had a great role model HC who develops staff and hires good coaches that the fans don't get down on.

Wally has said he has two starters but did what you said on radio. Said that he'd speak to his coaches but Lulay based on what he's doing should be his starter next game. Not exact wording though!

My sense is that there will be no QB controversy in the players or in the fan base based solely on the records of the two starters this season.

All speculation but Jennings is not likely to be p...d off as he knows he's the future and Lulay is not going to be there forever. Some players - yes - would be so angry and it could really harm them to have the back up starting. But the wins and QB efficiency stats this year aren't lying and I'm confident that Jennings will still play this season but Lulay represents the best choice right now.

The entire Offence had a different demeanour with Lulay at the helm and they almost pulled it off. Yes, it was the second half when the RBs collectively had started to believe they were winning regardless but Lulay was impressive. Lulay's sitting for so long as led to his health and playing ability to be as good as any QB in the CFL. Talk about calm, cool and focused. He's better than he was pre-shoulder injuries.

Now this is funny. I hadn't heard that "choking the chicken" was a golf analogy" and that's he's squeezing too hard as a result but when you check the urban dictionary you'll see how I interpreted it:
"to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch."

TheLionKing
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:04 am

Something had to be done in order to save the overall confidence of the team. And I think/hope this is the right thing for JJ10; to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch.
I put a lot of Jenning's non confidence in the laps of the Offensive Coordinator Khari Jones. Instead of going deep, how about some simple passes for completions and running plays to take the pressure off Jennings.

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The_Pauser
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:04 pm

TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/buono-at-th ... er~1190700

Will Wally create another Dickenson /Printers' controversy ?
Difference is Dickenson and Printers actually played well and both deserved to start. That's not the case with Jennings this year. Travis has played like a starter, and like an elite QB while Jennings has looked awful.
THINK about it

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The_Pauser
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:11 pm

I'm willing to finally start putting some of this on coaching. Like I said after the Saskatchewan game: motivation is up to the player. As a pro athlete if you can't motivate yourself to get up for a game then you shouldn't be a pro athlete, and literally every professional athlete will tell you this. Armchair players will say otherwise, but that doesn't really matter. But as I said a few games ago, it's up to the coaching staff to have the players prepared and ready to execute a game plan that sets them up for success, and I don't think we've had the right game plan for a few games now.

For some reason we have completely abandoned the running game. JJ24 was looking like the top RB in the league after game 7, but has completely disappeared since. He's not getting the touches. Our offensive line has been complete garbage, not protecting our QB, and not getting enough push and opening holes for the run game to be effective. Our playcalling has been bad. Against Ottawa we targeted Iannuzzi 7 times, which was more than we targeted Rainey and Williams combined. Some may say we wasted money on Williams because he's not getting it done...I say we just aren't using him and that's not on him. It's not a waste to add a dynamic playmaker like him to our offense unless we ignore him. That's on the coaching staff.

Defensively we haven't been good either. Way too soft. Our pass rush is pathetic. The opposition QB has enough time to wait and find a wide open receiver. Often times I'm seeing their receivers being wide open right from the snap, taking those underneath routes while our LB's and DB's back up and watch. One of the final plays of the game was a microcosm of this: a key 2nd down stop would have forced Ottawa to punt, instead our LB's (or DB's? I can't remember who was involved on the play) backed up beyond the first down marker and gave the Ottawa receiver enough space to get the first down before he was tackled. Too much of a cushion because we are afraid of giving up the big play (which we give up anyway) and it cost us in the end.

The good news is that if this really is Wally's final season we're likely to see a cleaning house of our coaching staff (barring a GC run). The bad news is that this may come at the cost of this season, and who knows what kind of damage that will do to an eroding fanbase.
THINK about it

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CardiacKid
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:12 pm

A very damning article at 3downnation by Lowell Ullrich...

http://3downnation.com/2017/08/27/qb-ch ... s-starter/

I was wondering what he was tapping out on his keyboard during the flight back. I have to say his comments about players publicly complaining about the game calling, particularly on offense, is not surprising. The return flight started subdued but not before long you could see some animated conversations taking place between the players, body language betrayed what space they were in while others dissected the game.

The energy improved to something a little more light-hearted towards the end of the flight but this team needs a win in the worst way before there is more finger-pointing.

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CardiacKid
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:26 pm

Toppy Vann wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:56 am
CardiacKid wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:19 am
TheLionKing wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:55 pm
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/buono-at-th ... er~1190700

Will Wally create another Dickenson /Printers' controversy ?
In chatting with a member of the travelling media, Wally made the decision to make Travis the de facto starter before the team hit the bus for the airport. I think the positive dynamic between Lulay and Jennings will circumvent any of the downside witnessed with the Dickensen/Printers situation.

Something had to be done in order to save the overall confidence of the team. And I think/hope this is the right thing for JJ10; to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch.

Also heard from an inside source that the Leo's are actively monitoring Brett Boyko's progress down south and are working the phones. It looks like Boyko is on the bubble and not too likely to survive the NFL cuts.
What was the atmosphere like in the Lion fan contingent when the Lions started to move the ball second half?

Maybe Wally should stay on as HC until Lulay retires as clearly he'd be the kind of coach Dave Dickensen has turned out to be. In fact I'd see Lulay being a faster transition to HC than Dave EXCEPT for the fact that Hufnagel really brought Dave along nicely and Dave had a good role model to follow. Lulay in BC would have to be his own man as he's not had a great role model HC who develops staff and hires good coaches that the fans don't get down on.

Wally has said he has two starters but did what you said on radio. Said that he'd speak to his coaches but Lulay based on what he's doing should be his starter next game. Not exact wording though!

My sense is that there will be no QB controversy in the players or in the fan base based solely on the records of the two starters this season.

All speculation but Jennings is not likely to be p...d off as he knows he's the future and Lulay is not going to be there forever. Some players - yes - would be so angry and it could really harm them to have the back up starting. But the wins and QB efficiency stats this year aren't lying and I'm confident that Jennings will still play this season but Lulay represents the best choice right now.

The entire Offence had a different demeanour with Lulay at the helm and they almost pulled it off. Yes, it was the second half when the RBs collectively had started to believe they were winning regardless but Lulay was impressive. Lulay's sitting for so long as led to his health and playing ability to be as good as any QB in the CFL. Talk about calm, cool and focused. He's better than he was pre-shoulder injuries.

Now this is funny. I hadn't heard that "choking the chicken" was a golf analogy" and that's he's squeezing too hard as a result but when you check the urban dictionary you'll see how I interpreted it:
"to use a golf analogy he is "choking the chicken" and has to get out of his head for a bit. Take the responsibility off his shoulders for now. My "media source" (ha ha) feels Jennings has been beating himself up mentally over this, which has him squeezing the football way too hard and screwing up his touch."
My wife is the golfer and that was the analogy she used while we were chatting with "Mr. X" about how JJ10 is forcing it and squeezing the life out of the ball. In my rather adolescent mind, I immediately thought of the Urban Dictionary meaning but as you can guess, it also means don't squeeze the golf club so hard you lose the feeling in your fingers.

No wonder the English language is one of the hardest to learn.....

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WestCoastJoe
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:43 pm

5 and 5. But 3 losses in a row. Glass half full or half empty?

Areas of concern:

We have bruised Jon Jennings. Have we ruined him?

Travis is remarkable. Amazing recovery from injury. Seems to read defences even better than before. He has to make lightning quick decisions, and does. What he did on Saturday was almost super-human. He took a team, dead as a door nail, put it on his back, and almost took it to an unlikely victory. Can Travis, could anyone, continue to give this team hope? If Travis gets nicked, back into the quagmire?

O Line. Always a concern. No solutions offered here.

Game planning.

Play calling.

Being out-coached, amongst other things, with detailed game prep.

Defence --> Personnel. Assignments. Confusion. No penetration. Busted coverages. Minimal effort to tackle at times. Systems.

STs. Blocking. Play design. We use a wedge on kickoff returns. Anything else? Punt returns --> Let Rainey do it. On his own. Coverage? Predictable. Tricks against? Frequent. Punts blocked? Too often.

Solutions offered? No. Aside from saying, that in my opinion, it goes deep.

Could Travis turn this thing around? Ya never know. He did it before, in 2011. He looks even better now, reading, throwing, more confident even. Just as mobile, agile and elusive as ever. Can a player inspire a team? We just saw it.

Could our coaching staff turn this thing around? Tweaks. Personnel changes. Much the same as always. Just window dressing, IMO.

On the tablet. Will check for typos shortly.

All of this, of course, is just in my opinion.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

maxlion
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:30 pm

Most of the predictions of success this year were predicated on Jennings continuing to play well, which unfortunately has not been the case. The fact that we have consistently looked good with Lulay at qb--and Lulay has very good, maybe a bit short of outstanding--suggests there is more to our struggles than just game planning and schemes. It's a team game with many interconnected parts, but having an effective qb is necessary for success.

But lots of blame to go around. Total breakdowns in all areas.

The good news is that the bye week comes at a good time. There is still a chance of turning things around and salvaging the season. Too bad two teams can't crossover.

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Toppy Vann
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:53 pm

The cliche athletes use all the time is that being a pro means you're bringing your own motivation to the challenge every practice and every game - and they do. Armchair players say this all the time too but err when they think that the coaches have no or a limited role to play in team motivation (willingness to act - enthusiasm is used as a synonym). But guys who have played and/or who coached football (and other sports) know that it's the HC who sets the tone and the culture that is part of the motivation equation.

Wally isn't worried about how players feel as he sets a performance oriented culture where his first interpretation of failure is two words - "player(s)" and "execution." Players know that you perform for this coach or you'll be gone. That's his old school coaching philosophy that has worked for him and his teams - until they run into situations where players don't like schemes that don't work or they're losing and they start to feel that more of the same won't get them a better result.

Wally will only look at coaching and schemes when there's a losing skid but Lulay says it well and this is what top leaders do and think like:
“Every week seems like that,” responded Lulay, when asked if his team is at a crossroads. “This is the time when the entire team and staff (should) do a self-scout on yourself. Look at your own play and what do you want to improve the next eight weeks. This is kind of a moment where the team steps back.”
What coaches do or don't do such as at the half to revise a game plan to account for the opponent or the situation affects player motivation individually and collectively. No different than if you're an executive or a supervisor or coach of adults or children. To suggest otherwise is not to understand what motivation is or how it's impacted by leadership or the lack thereof.

Lulay said that at the half not much was said at all by anybody!!!!!! What not much means is not clear but that's not a motivating environment unless players and coaches are focusing on the few critical things they need to do or can do that will make a difference. That's what coaches contribute to motivating athletes. The best teams are where coaches and players can adjust and get on the same page and make things happen.

Where coaches have a role in ensuring the culture is motivating is in how they prepare their team and what they do on game day to ensure that players buy in to the game plan and what they are calling.

Mike O'Shea and his special team tricks motivate players. Players love trick plays. They love aggressive coaching if situationally it feels right to them. That ain't Wally and that ain't the BC Lions. The Bomber - Als game where they punted it back and forth before OT was a good example - players love that stuff.

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WestCoastJoe
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Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:21 pm

Toppy Vann wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:53 pm
The cliche athletes use all the time is that being a pro means you're bringing your own motivation to the challenge every practice and every game - and they do. Armchair players say this all the time too but err when they think that the coaches have no or a limited role to play in team motivation (willingness to act - enthusiasm is used as a synonym). But guys who have played and/or who coached football (and other sports) know that it's the HC who sets the tone and the culture that is part of the motivation equation.

Wally isn't worried about how players feel as he sets a performance oriented culture where his first interpretation of failure is two words - "player(s)" and "execution." Players know that you perform for this coach or you'll be gone. That's his old school coaching philosophy that has worked for him and his teams - until they run into situations where players don't like schemes that don't work or they're losing and they start to feel that more of the same won't get them a better result.

Wally will only look at coaching and schemes when there's a losing skid but Lulay says it well and this is what top leaders do and think like:
“Every week seems like that,” responded Lulay, when asked if his team is at a crossroads. “This is the time when the entire team and staff (should) do a self-scout on yourself. Look at your own play and what do you want to improve the next eight weeks. This is kind of a moment where the team steps back.”
What coaches do or don't do such as at the half to revise a game plan to account for the opponent or the situation affects player motivation individually and collectively. No different than if you're an executive or a supervisor or coach of adults or children. To suggest otherwise is not to understand what motivation is or how it's impacted by leadership or the lack thereof.

Lulay said that at the half not much was said at all by anybody!!!!!! What not much means is not clear but that's not a motivating environment unless players and coaches are focusing on the few critical things they need to do or can do that will make a difference. That's what coaches contribute to motivating athletes. The best teams are where coaches and players can adjust and get on the same page and make things happen.

Where coaches have a role in ensuring the culture is motivating is in how they prepare their team and what they do on game day to ensure that players buy in to the game plan and what they are calling.

Mike O'Shea and his special team tricks motivate players. Players love trick plays. They love aggressive coaching if situationally it feels right to them. That ain't Wally and that ain't the BC Lions. The Bomber - Als game where they punted it back and forth before OT was a good example - players love that stuff.
I see it the same way, Toppy.

Years ago I read Jerry Kramer, talking about the fire Vince Lombardi lit inside him that continues to this day. Lombardi had that effect on numerous players and others outside of football. Some people can inspire and motivate. Not just through words, either. The anecdote I will always remember about Kramer and Lombardi was from Kramer's rookie season. Lombardi worked them hard. He knew which players to harangue, the ones tough enough to take it, to set a tone for the team. Kramer was one of them. And Lombardi knew Kramer needed to be pushed. He barked at Kramer throughout practice. You're not fit. You're too heavy. You're lazy. By the end of practice, Kramer was spent. He was hanging his head, sitting in the locker room, wondering if he was kidding himself that he could play pro football. Just at that moment, in came Lombardi. He put his hand on Kramer's shoulder and said: "Son, one of these days you're going to be the greatest guard in the NFL." Kramer said he felt like he was lifted up off the ground, filled up with energy, ready and able to go and practice for hours more. (Anecdote from memory, years later.)

55 years later, Kramer feels the same way about Lombardi. jerrykramer.com

And Lombardi treated soft-spoken, sensitive Bart Starr much differently.

I think some of us have been fortunate enough in life to experience the inspiration and motivation that can come through various coaches, teachers, friends and parents. Without such inspiration I doubt very much that I would have coached various sports for over 20 years, seeing the possibilities, the rewards. Lombardi inspired me from thousands of miles away. Same with Bill Walsh. John Wooden. Others. Don Matthews gave me inspiration right here in Vancouver.

Just IMO.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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