Defensive Concept ...

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

Post Reply
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

This post started in the game day thread, but as it developed, I opened it up a bit to consider the defensive concept we run. Mostly focused on what we want in players for DT and rush end positions. Possibly controversial, but what the heck ...

Working with the roster we have, I have no complaints about the DL lineup chosen for this game. Times do change, and Wally does adjust. Years ago, the blueprint was to suit up only 5 DL. Incredible. Now we see the value of fresh legs in the DLine. Effectiveness is a different thing, however.

* Defensive Tackle

Regarding the roster, as it is, I can't help but feel our concept is flawed. We did not seem to value size, power or physical dominance at DT from the get go this year. Brooks is 295, but he is no domineering DT from what we have seen. Turner is only 280. Not sure this is the way to go. We do not collapse the pocket. We do not cave it in, as we have tended to do in years past. IMO Brooks is not what we had hoped for. Neither is Turner. I have to think this is Washington's concept, more of a contain approach, rather than attack with monster, powerhouse DTs (such as we have had in the past: Williams, Taylor, Hunt, Mitchell).

* Rush End

Did we bring in an effective rush end this year? IMO, no. Did we try to find a rush end, as some of us consider that concept? Perhaps not. Perhaps we wanted what we have. Evans, Shirley, Boatright, Hudson, et cetera. These guys do not seem like prototypical CFL rush ends, who chase down quarterbacks relentlessly, guys who are slippery, elusive, skilled, strong and virtually impossible to stop one on one. They seem more like contain-type players, a bit of this, a bit of that. Not outstanding with the pass rush, not outstanding with run stopping, but able to give a bit of both. And now these 4 guys are all beyond the sideline, not suited up. Just IMO re the concept we seem to follow.

* DBs, Corners and Safeties

After looking athletic and effective initially, it seems to this CFL fan that Thompson is showing his inexperience at safety. What is our concept at safety? Our concept does not seem to demand experience, as Thompson has virtually none. Neither it seems did Purifoy, whose background prior to B.C. was as a cornerback. We have used him as nickel and DB, with a stint as safety. Thompson has physical skills. Does he have good coverage skills? That might be more suited to corner or DB. Safety requires the ability to read the play, to make fast decisions, to be a ballhawk.

We do not seem to want to play NATs at corner. To me that position demands cover skills as Job 1. Physical, athletic talent. I think that is Thompson's background from college.

Then there are the coverage confusion issues in the secondary.

Of course, there are other choices and approaches in defensive concept ... conservative vs attack-oriented, zone vs MTM, tight/loose coverage, deception vs straight up, familiarity vs change in player positions, simplicity vs sophistication, size/speed, youth/experience ...

There are the personnel choices filling out the concepts to be run. There are the systems that should fit the players' abilities. It is complicated, but after a while one can see something of the approach taken.

As with every game, this one will tell us a lot. IMO it could go a number of ways. A win. A loss. A bad loss. Most likely we will play hard. As the leader, Wally tends to get good effort out of his players, and has, in every game this year, aside from one. In the Riders debacle, he delegated it to Rolly to try to rally the troops in the pregame pep talk. And we do have outstanding character leaders on the team, as exemplified by Rolly, Travis, Solly, Jonathon, etc.

Expected strategy, tactics and game plan? Hmmm ... about the same as always, methinks.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Gonna put some pix from the Ottawa game in here.

One cannot say we do not occasionally go all in on a blitz. Just 4 DBs back. But we do not get there. Ottawa sniffed it out. Quick pass for a nice gain.

Kind of like free fall at times. We need to blitz once in a while. No one to cover #8.

2017-08-26_2005.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

4 or 5 guys with a shot to stop the running play. We don't get there. Touchdown.

2017-08-26_2011.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Into the end zone.
2017-08-26_2012_001.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

OK. Some offence. Lulay to the amazing Bryan Burnham.

2017-08-26_2021.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Steward and Vaillancourt working hard.

2017-08-26_2023.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
aklawitter
All Star
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:14 pm

Perhaps now people can see the pass-rush value of an Alex Bazzie?
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Gonna post this defensive fail by our D as Madu walks in untouched. Not gonna post what I see, at least for now.

2017-08-27_0148.png
2017-08-27_0148_001.png
2017-08-27_0149.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

...
2017-08-27_0149_001.png
2017-08-27_0149_002.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

...

2017-08-27_0150.png
2017-08-27_0150_001.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9364
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

Great analysis WCJ. You know, if both sides could have put aside their pride, I think Ryan Phillips could have been an effective safety for a season or two. Probably too late now, but he is the ball hawk we need back there, and his smarts, experience, and instincts would be well suited to the position. He may have lost half a step but he's not slow by any means, and he can read quarterbacks and get the ball efficiently (not to mention be a calming influence on a secondary that seems to change every game). I also thought his tackling was much better in his last season or two here.

I think Thompson, Bucknor, and Parker are perhaps all better suited to the wide side corner position, but Thompson and Bucknor could have backed up Phillips at safety (along with McDonald), depending on ratio issues.


DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

David wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:59 am
Great analysis WCJ. You know, if both sides could have put aside their pride, I think Ryan Phillips could have been an effective safety for a season or two. Probably too late now, but he is the ball hawk we need back there, and his smarts, experience, and instincts would be well suited to the position. He may have lost half a step but he's not slow by any means, and he can read quarterbacks and get the ball efficiently (not to mention be a calming influence on a secondary that seems to change every game). I also thought his tackling was much better in his last season or two here.

I think Thompson, Bucknor, and Parker are perhaps all better suited to the wide side corner position, but Thompson and Bucknor could have backed up Phillips at safety (along with McDonald), depending on ratio issues.


DH :cool:
Thanks, David.

Phillips certainly was a ballhawk, David. And he might have made a very effective Safety.

But I am not sure we know what we want at Safety. We don't have a Loffler type who chases down anything, and hits it hard. And I don't even like Loffler (player safety issues, including his own), but he can play. He sets a tone from Safety, no less. Just happens to be a NAT too. Do we have a ballhawk who can read the play? We put young Thompson there, without experience. We tried Purifoy there. Clarke. Do we know what we want in a player? Do we know what we want out of the position? Try this. Try that. What are we looking for?

If the staff puts a player in a position for which he is not suited, it does not feel right to criticize the player.

On that Madu touchdown, we had a lot of guys in contain mode. Watch your area. Do not guess. Heck, do not even move. Solly makes a read, and gets after it. But he was alone on that play. The pulling OL knew whom to block (seen it on film, #56, that is your man), and he got Solly, who made a desperate attempt. In the film room, one could rip the guys to shreds. But the entire concept should be ripped to shreds. I don't want to rip the players too hard. To me it is a coaching matter. But that play tells a lot, IMO.

Are guys committed to even making the tackle? Not my guy. Let someone else do it. I've got my area covered.

Personnel choices. Assignments. Attack or contain approach? Systems.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Post Reply