Eskimos 37 - Lions 26, Post-Game Stats and Comments

[DanoT]

South Pender, I agree with a lot of what you have just written.

However, as far as I can tell, Wally is a control freak but not an Xs and Os guy so he has to delegate to his assistants but rest assured that they are coaching old school conservative game planning and play calling exactly as Wally wants.

[Gridiron Ernie]

All these very pertinent comments from assorted Lionbackers bring me back to a point I meant to make in passing -- more so as a question than anything -- in my previous post regards the coaches/coaching: With Wally leaving (apparently) after this season, who is in line (if anyone that's currently on staff is a contender) to take over the reins? I just have to say -- since I've heard it suggested somewhere (maybe here on this forum) it might be Mark Washington -- that I would be seriously unhappy -- bordering on depressed -- should Mr. Washington get that handed him.

UNLESS his true colours are currently hidden and he indeed is operating in Wally's shadow/philosophy, just biding his time for a opportunity, and would bloom revealing something more than is currently evident. I suppose that could be possible, but I don't see it as particularly appealing outcome at all, based on what I've seen!

Whatever the case, with the hoped for new owner(s) in place by then, there's every possibility they (the new owners) would strongly lean toward starting with a clean slate, so far as head coach and coordinator positions. As has been mentioned already, one would imagine any new owners might prefer to not have hangers on from the old regime. Of course the season is young, and Washington (or anyone else) could pleasantly surprise through the run (still a long run) of remaining games. At season's end, we could be eating dust or drinking champagne. Either way, there's momentous changes to follow. And at the moment, neither of the current staff's coordinators is making a case for himself.

[South Pender]

South Pender, I agree with a lot of what you have just written.

However, as far as I can tell, Wally is a control freak but not an Xs and Os guy so he has to delegate to his assistants but rest assured that they are coaching old school conservative game planning and play calling exactly as Wally wants.

I don't have the inside knowledge about the team's operating culture that some of you on this forum have, so permit me to pose a question or two. Is it the case that Jones and Washington would operate differently than they have if they didn't have Wally looking over their shoulders? Are these guys really more talented than they seem and are being held back by Wally's backward ways? I wonder just how direct Wally's influence is. Does he in effect have the formal final say on game plans, or is it more a case of Jones and Washington simply holding back from working up game plans that they think would be effective because they fear that Wally would object?

In this connection, it's not necessary in my opinion for a head coach to be an Xs and Os guy as long as he has the coordinators who are and who are free to implement their strategy and tactics. There are lots of other functions that a good head coach can perform while leaving the details of the game-planning and in-game tactical decisions to his coordinators and coaches. So I have to wonder whether it is that Jones and Washington (as well as Dorazio and D-line coach Robin Ross) are really competent on their own, but are being held back, or that these assistants are just not that good on their own, period.

[mountaincat]

South Pender, I agree with a lot of what you have just written.

However, as far as I can tell, Wally is a control freak but not an Xs and Os guy so he has to delegate to his assistants but rest assured that they are coaching old school conservative game planning and play calling exactly as Wally wants.

I don't have the inside knowledge about the team's operating culture that some of you on this forum have, so permit me to pose a question or two. Is it the case that Jones and Washington would operate differently than they have if they didn't have Wally looking over their shoulders? Are these guys really more talented than they seem and are being held back by Wally's backward ways? I wonder just how direct Wally's influence is. Does he in effect have the formal final say on game plans, or is it more a case of Jones and Washington simply holding back from working up game plans that they think would be effective because they fear that Wally would object?

In this connection, it's not necessary in my opinion for a head coach to be an Xs and Os guy as long as he has the coordinators who are and who are free to implement their strategy and tactics. There are lots of other functions that a good head coach can perform while leaving the details of the game-planning and in-game tactical decisions to his coordinators and coaches. So I have to wonder whether it is that Jones and Washington (as well as Dorazio and D-line coach Robin Ross) are really competent on their own, but are being held back, or that these assistants are just not that good on their own, period.

wally may not be an "x's and o's guy" and appear to delegate to his coordinators but i don't think it's "inside info" or going out on a limb to say that wally has control freak tendencies and stubbornly clings to certain conservative coaching philosophies. the only thing he's really good at delegating is blame on the players when they fail to "execute" no matter how out of touch the schemes they're playing under are. that's been pretty well documented over his many years here. it follows from that, that coaches who are willing to work within those constraints are those who will tend to get hired or at least tend to stick around. so it's not necessarily that the assistants are geniuses behind held back. it's that they are willing to drink the kool aid and do thing's wally's way. there isn't a culture of innovation being rewarded here. it's wally's way or the highway, and always has been. in my view that would tend to attract and/or inculcate mediocrity in the coaching ranks. hence wally's inability to mentor or find a capable replacement. benny and teddy were busts, quite possibly in no small part due to wally's interference (up on the cherry picker breathing down benny's neck, tedford's vanishing h-backs...) and as gridiron ernie says, at the moment, neither of the current staff's coordinators is making a case for himself.

I've posted this stat a few times on Lionbackers in the past. The CFL team that gave up the most sacks in the CFL for the ten year period in which Dan Dorazio was our offensive line coach before he was let go by Jeff Tedford was our B.C Lions. Even in our 2006 Grey Cup winning season we gave up the most sacks in the CFL. That should never have happened. Our personell was better than that. We had many quarterbacks from Printers, Pierce, Jackson, and Lulay who had very good escapability. Numerous other CFL teams were lousy during that time period, experienced many coaching changes, including new offensive line coaches each season.

Dorazio is back, Buono is back, and the old scenario is back. Our staring quarterback is injured. Our quarterback is under heat and duress. Wally is *beeotch* our quarterback is not getting rid of the football fast enough. We're giving up the most quarterback sacks in the CFL. The trend is your friend and in this case, the trend is your enemy.

this says it all in a nutshell. the problems run much deeper and have been documented and debated ad nauseam here over the years. but nuggets of truth like this are undeniable. it's deja vu all over again.

[David]

Davis Sanchez (neutral 3rd party) roasts our D-line and O-lines. Says it's the same old story from Wally out of camp about the D-line getting better but we just never seem to have that dynamic pass rusher @ 4:55. Also raising concerns about defensive backfield miscommunication and busts. Interesting radio.

http://ckstam.streamon.fm/listen-pl-1868?smc=10

Also praises the work of Jovan this season - on the field and in the locker room.


DH

[Gridiron Ernie]

'Dynamic pass rusher'? What a concept! Can any of you kind Lionbackers have pity on me and soothe my open mental wound regards this matter by pouring over me some sweetly cooling bucketful of names -- even, dammit, just one (dynamic rusher) who has/have lived up to that job description here with our Leos anytime lately! Honestly, it's been ridiculously long! I can not reel in a single name off the top of my head from the past handful of years. How hard are they to find? And why is it that other teams in our league have not one but, OMG, even two (maybe three) that fit the bill. Anyhow, seriously, I am perplexed. I can't generally complain about our guys scouting/recruiting. In a lot of areas the staff do a very fine job it seems to me. So what's up with this dearth of rush ends -- and that it's been so painfully ongoing here in Leoland? Perhaps it reflects the team's conservative defensive philosophy. But still, who wouldn't want a speedy giant putting worry and fear in the eyes of those across the trench?

[Sir Purrcival]

I'm thinking that the last truly dangerous threat we had was probably Keron Williams and he was "ok" in comparison to some of those who came before him. Brent Johnson, Cameron Wake, James Parker. I don't know what the answer is but we have had an underperforming DLine for way too long. More than can be explained by just a downswing. Can probably say the same about the Oline as well and we have paid for it with damaged QB's since the DDickenson Era.

[Gridiron Ernie]

Well that was refreshing, just even to roll those names off the tongue, mantra-like -- thanks Sir Purrcival! A downright solid list: B. Johnson/Wake/Quick P. Agreed, Keron Williams showed some considerable ability and interest in opposition QBs, but wasn't quite of that top-notch caliber. And yours is a timely mention re Brent -- as I just noticed the Lions are adding Brent Johnson (about time!) to the wall of fame at Friday's half-time. (Carl Kidd also). Perhaps Brent's moment in the spotlight on Friday will remind the current regime what it is they're missing.

[SammyGreene]

I'm thinking that the last truly dangerous threat we had was probably Keron Williams and he was "ok" in comparison to some of those who came before him. Brent Johnson, Cameron Wake, James Parker. I don't know what the answer is but we have had an underperforming DLine for way too long. More than can be explained by just a downswing. Can probably say the same about the Oline as well and we have paid for it with damaged QB's since the DDickenson Era.

Yes with Williams he led the league in sacks and Benevides decided to convert him to tackle the following season. He put on additional weight, was completely ineffective and was never the same again. Weird thing was he was a FA after the 2013 season and no one signed him, even though he designed the logo for the 2014 Grey Cup. We seemed to be cursed on the defensive line since.

Outstanding run of DEs from Johnson, to Wake, to Foley to Williams and now the well is dry. Aaron Hunt and Tyrone Williams were dominant tackles and Khalif Mitchell was a beast in the 2011 cup run things got wild and weird with him.
Even Eric Taylor is far superior at tackle than what internationals the Lions have brought in recent years.

[Blitz]

I'm thinking that the last truly dangerous threat we had was probably Keron Williams and he was "ok" in comparison to some of those who came before him. Brent Johnson, Cameron Wake, James Parker. I don't know what the answer is but we have had an underperforming DLine for way too long. More than can be explained by just a downswing. Can probably say the same about the Oline as well and we have paid for it with damaged QB's since the DDickenson Era.

Common sense tells me that our offensive line pass protection is not just a personnel problem. That is supported by a lot of factors including our offensive line giving up the most sacks over 10 years that Dorazio was our offensive line coach in his first stint and right now we are leading the CFL in sacks in the second season of his return stint here.

If it was a problem of our quarterbacks not releasing the football quickly enough there are a lot of quarterbacks to blame from Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, Lulay, Glenn, Jennings, and now Lulay again.

I believe its mostly a problem of coaching and scheme. Its just too many seasons to think otherwise. Heck we gave up the most sacks in the CFl when we had Murphy, Jiminez, Bates, Shirko Risouli and Angus Reid up front.

This season we've given up 17 sacks to lead the CFL in that 7 department. Calary has given up 4 sacks this season and they lost Dennis, their best and the CFL's best offensive lineman last season.

Travis Lulay has thrown 6 interceptions to 7 touchdown passes in his 3 contests. Last season Wally was laying the blame for interceptions on Jennings.

Mike Reilly, who had not been intercepted in his last 200 pass attemtps until he got one picked off last Friday said this about his success this season in not throwing interceptions.

“It’s a tribute to a lot of different things,” Reilly said. “The pass protection has to be good. A lot of times when you throw interceptions, it’s because you’re rushed in the pocket. That wasn’t the case (Friday).

Simple logic.

Our quarterbacks have been pressured way too much this season, sacked too often, hit too often, and Jennings is already injured and Lulay is fortunate not to be. Look back at our record of quarterback injuries from Dickenson, Printers, Pierce, Jackson, Lulay, and Jennings. Our quarterbacks have missed a ton of games due to injury in the Buono era here in B.C.

It would be even worse had we not had a smart quarterback like Dickenson or mobile quarterbacks like Printers, Pierce, Jackson, Lulay, Jennings, and now Lulay again behind center.

Its much more than a personnel problem, even if Facault is not playing well and shouldn't be starting, which is Buono's decision as it was to not have Olifioye here this season.

Bo Levi Mitchell is completing 63.9% of his passes this season while only being sacked four times and having many opportunities to roast hot dogs while in the pocket before throwing the football.

I would love fans to see him playing in Wally's scheme. He wouldn't look so good at all. The problem is less about our quarterbacks and while our offensive line needs to better our scheme and play calling need to be a whole lot better against good defenses.

Its more than time for Buono and Jones and Dorazio to win some games for us for a change instead of expecting Jennings or Lulay or Burnham or Rainey or Johnson or Manny creating magic out of a mediocre scheme and less than stellar play calling too often.

Buono wants our players to 'make plays' I want him and his coaches to 'create plays' and develop a scheme that gives our players the best chance to win.

[WestCoastJoe]

I'm thinking that the last truly dangerous threat we had was probably Keron Williams and he was "ok" in comparison to some of those who came before him. Brent Johnson, Cameron Wake, James Parker. I don't know what the answer is but we have had an underperforming DLine for way too long. More than can be explained by just a downswing. Can probably say the same about the Oline as well and we have paid for it with damaged QB's since the DDickenson Era.

Yes with Williams he led the league in sacks and Benevides decided to convert him to tackle the following season. He put on additional weight, was completely ineffective and was never the same again. Weird thing was he was a FA after the 2013 season and no one signed him, even though he designed the logo for the 2014 Grey Cup. We seemed to be cursed on the defensive line since.

Outstanding run of DEs from Johnson, to Wake, to Foley to Williams and now the well is dry. Aaron Hunt and Tyrone Williams were dominant tackles and Khalif Mitchell was a beast in the 2011 cup run things got wild and weird with him.
Even Eric Taylor is far superior at tackle than what internationals the Lions have brought in recent years.

Someone in the organization likes the profile of our International Defensive Ends. Not too big. Not too fast. Not too mean. Don't get after the quarterback all that well. Kind of quiet. Not all that great at run stopping. Not quite rush ends. Not quite overpowering either.

Must be coachable. Must sit in the front row at meetings. Must do well on tests. Agreeable guys. Nod when the coach is speaking. Say the right things. Maybe lacking in talent, but good guys.

How many of these guys, the INT DEs, do we have? They all seem the same.

International Defensive Ends

Roh stands out a bit with his cool nickname, Death Roh.

Shirley

Evans

Hudson

Boatright
...........

Richardson is a NAT

.............

International Defensive Tackles

Turner Jr.

Maddy

Brooks

No great shakes there. Do any of these guys resemble Tyrone Williams, Aaron Hunt or Eric Taylor or Khalif Mitchell? Nope.
.............

I like the DL NATs though. Menard. Luke. Forde.

[maxlion]

Someone in the organization likes the profile of our International Defensive Ends.
...

Must be coachable. Must sit in the front row at meetings. Must do well on tests. Agreeable guys. Nod when the coach is speaking. Say the right things. Maybe lacking in talent, but good guys.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base this on? Assumption or inside knowledge or published reports?

Khalif Mitchell was an idiot. Good riddance.

[CardiacKid]

I'm thinking that the last truly dangerous threat we had was probably Keron Williams and he was "ok" in comparison to some of those who came before him. Brent Johnson, Cameron Wake, James Parker. I don't know what the answer is but we have had an underperforming DLine for way too long. More than can be explained by just a downswing. Can probably say the same about the Oline as well and we have paid for it with damaged QB's since the DDickenson Era.

Yes with Williams he led the league in sacks and Benevides decided to convert him to tackle the following season. He put on additional weight, was completely ineffective and was never the same again. Weird thing was he was a FA after the 2013 season and no one signed him, even though he designed the logo for the 2014 Grey Cup. We seemed to be cursed on the defensive line since.

Outstanding run of DEs from Johnson, to Wake, to Foley to Williams and now the well is dry. Aaron Hunt and Tyrone Williams were dominant tackles and Khalif Mitchell was a beast in the 2011 cup run things got wild and weird with him.
Even Eric Taylor is far superior at tackle than what internationals the Lions have brought in recent years.

Someone in the organization likes the profile of our International Defensive Ends. Not too big. Not too fast. Not too mean. Don't get after the quarterback all that well. Kind of quiet. Not all that great at run stopping. Not quite rush ends. Not quite overpowering either.

Must be coachable. Must sit in the front row at meetings. Must do well on tests. Agreeable guys. Nod when the coach is speaking. Say the right things. Maybe lacking in talent, but good guys.

How many of these guys, the INT DEs, do we have? They all seem the same.

International Defensive Ends

Roh stands out a bit with his cool nickname, Death Roh.

Shirley

Evans

Hudson

Boatright
...........

Richardson is a NAT

.............

International Defensive Tackles

Turner Jr.

Maddy

Brooks

No great shakes there. Do any of these guys resemble Tyrone Williams, Aaron Hunt or Eric Taylor or Khalif Mitchell? Nope.
.............

I like the DL NATs though. Menard. Luke. Forde.

I don't believe Boatright has made the game day roster as of yet. Anyone have any insight into his capabilities?

[maxlion]

Interesting post Blitz.

Going back to 2011...

In 2011, we led the league with the fewest sacks against.
In 2012, we were tied for fewest.
In 2013, we were tied for 3rd fewest.
In 2014, we were 6th.
In 2015, we were 3rd.
In 2016, we were 4th.

Overall, slightly above average in number of sacks against over the past 6 seasons. I didn't bother going back further. Perhaps your claims would have been born out if I had.

Now looking at QB injuries.
Levi-Mitchell has been mostly injury free.
Reilly has suffered several significant injuries.
Durant missed most of 2 years with injuries.
Nichols has been mostly injury-free in his short career, but his predecessor Willy was often injured.
Ray has been frequently injured over the past few years.
Harris was injured for part of last year.
Collaros has suffered several major injuries.
Glenn has been mostly injury free, including during his time in BC, but he doesn't take risks to win.

I'm probably missing some guys. Bottom line is that QBs around the league get injured frequently.

I enjoy the debate and variety of opinions on here. But there should some regard for facts as well.

[WestCoastJoe]

Someone in the organization likes the profile of our International Defensive Ends.
...

Must be coachable. Must sit in the front row at meetings. Must do well on tests. Agreeable guys. Nod when the coach is speaking. Say the right things. Maybe lacking in talent, but good guys.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base this on? Assumption or inside knowledge or published reports?

Khalif Mitchell was an idiot. Good riddance.

Offence taken, max?

The first quote ... Yes. Someone in the organization does like our Int DEs. That is why they are here.

The second quote ... Perhaps I should have labelled it as humour or sarcasm. But it does seem to me our collection of Int DEs lack effectiveness. Do I have inside information? No. None. I have no inside information. The comment was sarcasm on my part. (Do you have inside information?)

We all saw the emotional/attitude/maturity issues that plagued Khalif Mitchell. He had two stints with our team. You call him an idiot? He had issues. Wally tried to work with him.

I regret the sarcasm a little bit. I thought it was pretty mild. In retrospect it was sure to offend some, including those who are disinclined to criticize our coaching staff.

Our hopes are dashed a bit. Fans are upset. Coaches, like anybody else, do not like criticism. But it seems to me that it goes with the the territory of the chosen profession.