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maxlion
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Now about that conservative, overall approach to the game ... If that keeps up, it will no doubt be a bigger issue.
Others may disagree, but I don't feel that this is the way that Wally wants the team to play. Before the game, he was talking about the team being "very fast, very aggressive, very exciting". Afterwards, he didn't seem too pleased with his coordinators' play calling. I recall also that Stubler was fired due to his overly conservative approach. To be sure, Washington's D has not been aggressive consistently, but it has during extended stretches over the past few years, including most of this year.

On D, I would say that without Brooks, our Dline talent is below average. Turner, Roh, Westerman just can't get pressure on their own. Bazzie is good, but more of a complementary player.

Our offensive playcalling has shown some positive signs this year, but none were evident last game. It was handoff up the middle, then desperation throw 30 yards downfield. Oline changes are a mystery again. Can Jones be an innovator? I have my doubts. Can Dorazio build a consistent, strong Oline. Not sure. I haven't seen this during his time here.

Lots of unanswered questions here, but I would assert that Wally values a more aggressive and less conservative approach than some might say. But I'm not certain that he has the coordinators or players to get the job done against the league's elite teams.
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WestCoastJoe
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maxlion wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Now about that conservative, overall approach to the game ... If that keeps up, it will no doubt be a bigger issue.
Others may disagree, but I don't feel that this is the way that Wally wants the team to play. Before the game, he was talking about the team being "very fast, very aggressive, very exciting". Afterwards, he didn't seem too pleased with his coordinators' play calling. I recall also that Stubler was fired due to his overly conservative approach. To be sure, Washington's D has not been aggressive consistently, but it has during extended stretches over the past few years, including most of this year.

On D, I would say that without Brooks, our Dline talent is below average. Turner, Roh, Westerman just can't get pressure on their own. Bazzie is good, but more of a complementary player.

Our offensive playcalling has shown some positive signs this year, but none were evident last game. It was handoff up the middle, then desperation throw 30 yards downfield. Oline changes are a mystery again. Can Jones be an innovator? I have my doubts. Can Dorazio build a consistent, strong Oline. Not sure. I haven't seen this during his time here.

Lots of unanswered questions here, but I would assert that Wally values a more aggressive and less conservative approach than some might say. But I'm not certain that he has the coordinators or players to get the job done against the league's elite teams.
Good post, max.

Re conservative philosophy ...

That has been Wally's approach throughout the years, it seems to me. I got the impression from his words, in years past, that Mark W wanted to plan and call aggressive, attacking defence. We saw that earlier this year. Then, last game, not. Reverting to what Wally has always preferred? Wally wants aggressive play, but he has wanted it done with zone pass coverage, and little in the way of blitzing. That is conservative planning and play calling. We will see, of course, how this shakes out. I kind of expect MW to push his case for aggressive, attacking planning and play calling. --> blitzing, some man to man coverage, mixing it up, varied personnel, et cetera.

Offence? Who knows what the "inside, deep, possibly hidden" philosophy of Khari Jones is? But I expect he delivers what Wally wants, in general terms. We know that the running game is really the bailiwick of Dan Dorazio. But I would expect that ex-QB Khari would like to be creative, deceptive and unpredictable. Although I guess some ex-QBs out there would just like to step back, load up and chuck the ball. Dunno about Khari. Not enough of a track record to judge.

Mark and Khari bring the Xs and Os. But Wally has usually set the tone. We will see where this goes.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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Hambone
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TheLionKing wrote:
Sir Purrcival wrote:Oh well on the lighter side, the Riders just got trounced 54-7 by the team we beat last week. Their forum isn't in a happy place right now either.
Not always greener on the other side. Wonder if Jones is regretting leaving Edmonton ?
Wonder if Rider fans are starting to regret Jones leaving Edmonton.
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SammyGreene wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote: Ha ha ... Wasn't Vaillancourt wondering how he lost his position to injury? And might he also be wondering if he lost his position due to performance issues, when he seemed to be doing so very well after training camp and through the games until his concussion?

Or is this just Dan moving guys around, experimenting, so to speak, working in the lab?

Our OL had a good start to the year. Very promising. We have depth and talent. But the performance has slipped. As noted, less focus by me on OL issues this year. This will probably be be the last comment on Dan and the OL for a while.
That must have taken tremendous restraint on your behalf WestCoast Joe given the bizarre use of Vaillancourt and Steward already! lol

A walk down memory lane sees the Lions elated to get Vaillancourt 5th overall in draft, saying he was their No. 1 pick all along and "most ready" to play. Has an outstanding training camp and beats out Fabian for starting position. Lions win both games with him in line-up but he suffers a concussion in Hamilton. Was green lighted to return 2 weeks ago but wasn't activated until Friday in a back-up role to Fabian. Vaillancourt confused on how he was demoted.
I don't read so much into it. I didn't realize either of Vaillancourt and Adcock were back until I noticed them down on the sidelines during the anthem. Keep in mind Adcock was returning after missing the first 7 games and Vaillancourt after missing the last 5. It wasn't like Fabien played poorly while Vaillancourt was out or that Vaillancourt is a seasoned veteran returning to his long held spot. Immediately inserting Vaillancourt back in at the same time as Adcock is returning is to be replacing the right side of the OL all at once with players who have little and no playing time, respectively, this season. From a continuity standpoint I think a good case can be made to keep get them in one step at a time; keep 4/5 of the OL intact this game by getting Adcock back in while transitioning Vaillancourt back into his starting spot if not against Ottawa then Toronto.
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Just saw that Ottawa announced Harris as the starting QB in week 10. Should be a good test for the Lions, hopefully they can get back on track.
Blitz
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Lionsfan65 wrote:Just saw that Ottawa announced Harris as the starting QB in week 10. Should be a good test for the Lions, hopefully they can get back on track.
's

We get all the luck! Collaras and now Harris returning. I would have much preferred our Leos to be playing against 'good ol' Smilin' Hank, who will be grimacing instead while watching from the sidelines.

Harris had 1,499 passing yards, nine touchdowns and just one interception while completing 82 per cent of his passes before he was injured. Yes, an 82% completion rate. Ottawa had the CFL's best offence when Harris was leading his team.

Gonna be a tough game to win now.
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Lionsfan65
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Blitz wrote:We get all the luck! Collaras and now Harris returning. I would have much preferred our Leos to be playing against 'good ol' Smilin' Hank, who will be grimacing instead while watching from the sidelines.Harris had 1,499 passing yards, nine touchdowns and just one interception while completing 82 per cent of his passes before he was injured. Yes, an 82% completion rate. Ottawa had the CFL's best offence when Harris was leading his team. Gonna be a tough game to win now.
Lets hope Harris has a little bit of rust after sitting out the past few weeks. :cr:
Hopefully the Lions will fix some of their problems for Thursday and the Calgary game was just a one off.
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B.C.FAN
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Lionsfan65 wrote:Just saw that Ottawa announced Harris as the starting QB in week 10. Should be a good test for the Lions, hopefully they can get back on track.
I hope Harris shows some rust in his first game back as Zach Collaros did in the first half against the Lions last week before tossing 5 TDs in his second game Saturday against Saskatchewan.
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WestCoastJoe
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SammyGreene wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote: Ha ha ... Wasn't Vaillancourt wondering how he lost his position to injury? And might he also be wondering if he lost his position due to performance issues, when he seemed to be doing so very well after training camp and through the games until his concussion?

Or is this just Dan moving guys around, experimenting, so to speak, working in the lab?

Our OL had a good start to the year. Very promising. We have depth and talent. But the performance has slipped. As noted, less focus by me on OL issues this year. This will probably be be the last comment on Dan and the OL for a while.
That must have taken tremendous restraint on your behalf WestCoast Joe given the bizarre use of Vaillancourt and Steward already! lol

A walk down memory lane sees the Lions elated to get Vaillancourt 5th overall in draft, saying he was their No. 1 pick all along and "most ready" to play. Has an outstanding training camp and beats out Fabian for starting position. Lions win both games with him in line-up but he suffers a concussion in Hamilton. Was green lighted to return 2 weeks ago but wasn't activated until Friday in a back-up role to Fabian. Vaillancourt confused on how he was demoted.

Then there's Steward...

Great handling of your two best young linemen. Sure there will be growing pains with both of them but let them develop and realize their potential.
Hey, Sammy.

Restraint? Yup. I am not so emotionally involved via the wins and losses anymore. It is easier to roll with it a bit.

However ...

Be nice if MW gets back to aggressive, attacking D. Be nice if Khari expands the playbook. Be nice if we game plan for specific weaknesses in the opponent. Did we do that last game? Did not seem to. Be nice if we scouted ourselves for tendencies. Do we have tendencies? Ummm ... yup.

It seems to me there is a good chance MW and Khari deliver the weekly philosophy (aggressive or conservative) that Wally wants. Or maybe they played it safe due to having a good win/loss record. Dunno ... Just speculating, as a fan.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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David
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I would say we're more conservative on the offensive side of the ball WCJ than we are with our defensive schemes - last game notwithstanding.

It's about time for Khari to get a bit more creative. Chris Rainey is no longer a decoy because everyone knows that they're going to try and dump it off to him when he's inserted into the offense. What about releasing him deep once in a blue moon like Hamilton did with Banks yesterday for 6 points?

When we get our ground game going, we never seem to go play-action. What about pump fakes as well to freeze defenders? Roll-outs? A screen pass to Rolly with some blockers in front? The only 'gadget' play (if you want to call it that) this year IIRC was the Olafioye touchdown reception.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Courtney Taylor activated too. I like his superior route running skills. I think Boldewijn shows lots of potential, but is still a bit green. Just my :2cents:


DH :cool:
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WCJ wrote:

"Be nice if MW gets back to aggressive, attacking D. Be nice if Khari expands the playbook. Be nice if we game plan for specific weaknesses in the opponent. Did we do that last game? Did not seem to. Be nice if we scouted ourselves for tendencies. Do we have tendencies? Ummm ... yup. "

The problem with playing the Stamps is, where are the weaknesses? The Lions D didn't do enough to stop Dickenson's favourite game: dink and dunk medium and short passes to the flats, as doing so would have diminished deep coverage. Coming up the problem with making the necessary adjustments for a gunslinger like Harris is playing a backup at Boundary DB for the injured Clark.

The other thing that the Stamps have going for them is that their 1st year DC, DeVone Claybrooks may just turn out to be an upgrade over Stubler.
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WestCoastJoe
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David wrote:I would say we're more conservative on the offensive side of the ball WCJ than we are with our defensive schemes - last game notwithstanding.

It's about time for Khari to get a bit more creative. Chris Rainey is no longer a decoy because everyone knows that they're going to try and dump it off to him when he's inserted into the offense. What about releasing him deep once in a blue moon like Hamilton did with Banks yesterday for 6 points?

When we get our ground game going, we never seem to go play-action. What about pump fakes as well to freeze defenders? Roll-outs? A screen pass to Rolly with some blockers in front? The only 'gadget' play (if you want to call it that) this year IIRC was the Olafioye touchdown reception.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Courtney Taylor activated too. I like his superior route running skills. I think Boldewijn shows lots of potential, but is still a bit green. Just my :2cents:


DH :cool:
I hear ya, David. Seems like that old philosophy ... execution without deception. Play a man's game. Here we come. Try and stop us. Deliberate, simple schemes. This fan does not think that works any more.

It seems clear that Dickenson beat us with schemes. Detailed plans to attack our tendencies and weaknesses. They planned, and we cooperated.

Yes, MW has shown us aggressive, attacking football, and detailed prep. We went away from it. Dunno why. But this fan thinks MW will prevail upon Wally to go back to attacking defence.

Not so sure Khari has the standing with Wally to do that. Also not so sure how much sway Dan D has with the overall offensive planning.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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WestCoastJoe
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DanoT wrote:WCJ wrote:

"Be nice if MW gets back to aggressive, attacking D. Be nice if Khari expands the playbook. Be nice if we game plan for specific weaknesses in the opponent. Did we do that last game? Did not seem to. Be nice if we scouted ourselves for tendencies. Do we have tendencies? Ummm ... yup. "

The problem with playing the Stamps is, where are the weaknesses? The Lions D didn't do enough to stop Dickenson's favourite game: dink and dunk medium and short passes to the flats, as doing so would have diminished deep coverage. Coming up the problem with making the necessary adjustments for a gunslinger like Harris is playing a backup at Boundary DB for the injured Clark.

The other thing that the Stamps have going for them is that their 1st year DC, DeVone Claybrooks may just turn out to be an upgrade over Stubler.
IMO, Dano. No team is without weaknesses. Hit 'em as hard as you can where you think they are vulnerable. Mix it up. Surprise them. Go against your tendencies. Every player has vulnerability. MW did just fine with attacking football. Offence? Do what Calgary did. Do what Blitz has suggested. Do what others of us have suggested --> Quick passes. Screens. Rollouts. Lumbala as a target. Make them defend Lumbala or sit him down. Quick hitters vs the blitz. Honor your own running game. But designing the running game and coaching it might be beyond what we have seen with this staff. The teams have seen our running game plan, and they are greatly limiting it.

It ain't about newfangled plays. It is about tweaking specifically for each opponent. There are enough weapons to keep any opponent unsure and somewhat off balance.

So someone says, but these pro coaches know more than you fans. Yep. But not all coaches do the detailed planning for each game, for each specific opponent. And some pro coaches stay within their comfort zone. Dickenson looked at the tape, came up with a plan just for us, thought we might not adapt, and they kicked our butts. There were no plays no one had ever heard of before, nor seen before. But we were not ready for them, and they played those cards.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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B.C.FAN
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Until this game, I thought Wally and his coordinators had outcoached most of their opponents. This week, the coaching staff's failure to adjust to Calgary's schemes and the players' uninspired effort combined to produce an embarrassing result that was a huge letdown to Lions' fans and probably most CFL fans who wanted to see a competitive game. I hope it was a one-off and not the start of a trend. Going on the road in a short week and beating a talented but struggling Ottawa team with Trevor Harris at the controls would be a great way to bounce back.
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David wrote:I would say we're more conservative on the offensive side of the ball WCJ than we are with our defensive schemes - last game notwithstanding.

It's about time for Khari to get a bit more creative. Chris Rainey is no longer a decoy because everyone knows that they're going to try and dump it off to him when he's inserted into the offense. What about releasing him deep once in a blue moon like Hamilton did with Banks yesterday for 6 points?

When we get our ground game going, we never seem to go play-action. What about pump fakes as well to freeze defenders? Roll-outs? A screen pass to Rolly with some blockers in front? The only 'gadget' play (if you want to call it that) this year IIRC was the Olafioye touchdown reception.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Courtney Taylor activated too. I like his superior route running skills. I think Boldewijn shows lots of potential, but is still a bit green. Just my :2cents:


DH :cool:
I agree on Rainey. In fact, I'd suggest that he be converted to receiver, a la Banks and Williams. He has great hands and great speed. I've never seen him do much as a running back.

Also agree on Boldewijn. His impact hasn't been very noticable, though I'm not sure Taylor is the answer either.
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