Argos 30 - Lions 27 -- Game Blog, Post Game Stats, Comments

[WestCoastJoe]

Great insight, Blitz.

Always looking forward to your perspective and detailed analysis.

Tedford must be having private doubts about the bill of goods he was sold on our young DC. So it seems to me. As you note, it seems Mark W only thinks about coverage. The clearest signal of this is putting Bighill 25 yards deep in the soft zone. Nowhere in the scheme is priority given to pressuring the quarterback. Nor to defending the screen pass. Nor even to run stopping. Coverage. Stop the deep ball. And yet we give up many, many deep passes. QB accuracy, a huge field, along with large, fast receivers just plays into this. As with some other viewers, it seems to me that the best, and perhaps only, antidote to the passing game is pressure on the QB. I see Chris Jones do it. I see Orlando Steinauer do it. Noel Thorpe in Montreal gets after the QB. With his great variety of looks, Stubler is very effective.

Conservative approach. Even our slow, possession receivers indicate a conservative bent. Control the ball. Do not take chances. So Tedford inherits a roster of possession receivers in a league that favours fast receivers that can go deep, and stretch the field. It is hard to imagine Taylor or Collie beating CFL teams deep. Gore is an afterthought in our offence. And, of course, throwing deep from the pocket is hardly a specialty of Travis Lulay. Manny is big and fast, but he hardly seems like the most skilled receiver out there. Getting separation? Not so much. He was draped vs the Argos.

Whatever, Tedford will get it fixed in time, although it might take a poor defensive showing all year, and then a makeover in the off season. Tedford has expressed a preference for an attack style defence. That might take time.

[Blitz]

Great insight, Blitz.

Always looking forward to your perspective and detailed analysis.

Tedford must be having private doubts about the bill of goods he was sold on our young DC. So it seems to me. As you note, it seems Mark W only thinks about coverage. The clearest signal of this is putting Bighill 25 yards deep in the soft zone. Nowhere in the scheme is priority given to pressuring the quarterback. Nor to defending the screen pass. Nor even to run stopping. Coverage. Stop the deep ball. And yet we give up many, many deep passes. QB accuracy, a huge field, along with large, fast receivers just plays into this. As with some other viewers, it seems to me that the best, and perhaps only, antidote to the passing game is pressure on the QB. I see Chris Jones do it. I see Orlando Steinauer do it. Noel Thorpe in Montreal gets after the QB. With his great variety of looks, Stubler is very effective.

Conservative approach. Even our slow, possession receivers indicate a conservative bent. Control the ball. Do not take chances. So Tedford inherits a roster of possession receivers in a league that favours fast receivers that can go deep, and stretch the field. It is hard to imagine Taylor or Collie beating CFL teams deep. Gore is an afterthought in our offence. And, of course, throwing deep from the pocket is hardly a specialty of Travis Lulay. Manny is big and fast, but he hardly seems like the most skilled receiver out there. Getting separation? Not so much. He was draped vs the Argos.

Whatever, Tedford will get it fixed in time, although it might take a poor defensive showing all year, and then a makeover in the off season. Tedford has expressed a preference for an attack style defence. That might take time.

I completely concur with all your points WCJ.

I believe, before this season is over, Lavelle Hawkins will be given an opportunity to play slot. He was a 4th round NFL draft choice and the first wide receiver chosen in the 2008 draft and he played for Tedford in California. He's quick, an excellent route runner who was a productive slot receiver when he played for the Titans and the CFL rules regarding pass defence favor him. I also see us bringing in some import receivers at NFL cut time. I don't see Taylor or Burnham being with us next season. We really made a mistake letting Nick Moore get away as well as underutilizing and misusing Ernest Jackson before he vacated us for Ottawa.

Manny is a decent deep threat but he is not a good route runner. Collie, its easy to forget, is a National. He's a possession receiver who has not played well in his last two games but I believe signing him this season was a good decision. Draheim has played very well. If Steward came back, we could go with a fourth import receiver on offence but I doubt we'll go in that direction.

Defensively, we really should give up on the experiment of having Westerman playing defensive end. Moving Westerman back inside would be the answer. Menard could rotate in there. That would enable us to play both Smith and Bazzie at the same time at defensive end to attempt to get more pressure on the quarterback but longer term we need to find a defensive end. We would have been better off using Roh outside and Westerman inside the last couple of games. I really see us bringing in some import defensive ends at NFL cut time.

Defensively, I don't believe in a blitzing defense or a maximum coverage defense. Giving an offence any one flavor will eventually get your defense burned, either quick torch method or the slow, painful way (as we are mostly being tortured by opposing offences - and even with maximum coverage, if the quarterback gets too much time, you can get beat deep on the big CFL field, as you note.

Chris Jones is aggressive but he doesn't blitz every play nor does Thorpe, who can really give a team a blitz look, stunt it and drop off. Both of these defensiive coordinators give an offence a lot of different looks, use numerous formations, and utilize different coverages.

I'm only guessing but I'm confident Buono sold Washington to Tedford as a younger DC who would become a great one. Maybe one day he will but how long can we wait. No longer than this season and when we look at the end of last season and the start of this season, Washington is costing us, not only in W's but with a dwindling fan base as well. I can't see Tedford being happy.

I was vehemently against discarding Stubler at the end of 2013. In fact I was totally against us dumping both Stubler and Chap at the time. My reasoning was simple. Chap had changed his offence in 2011 and we won the Grey Cup that season and had the best offence in the CFL in 2012. An injury plagued 2013 season, in which Lulay was hurting to start the season and also lost him for a chunk of games (we had to insert DeMarco who had no experience) seriously affected our offence that year. But we finished the season strong, with a powerful running attack that was averaging 200 yards per game. Not wise was my thinking, going into a Grey Cup hosting year. I realized my opinion was a very minority opinion on Lionbackers at the time and still is.

I don't see much difference between the present day Cortez and Chap, except that one favors a bit more of a vertical passing attack and Chap favors the possession passing game. Chap uses a lot more motion and misdirection. Chap has done an outstanding job in Riderville so far.

But I'm happy we have Cortez rather than Chap right now but only for one major reason. Cortez brought Malone with him. The hiring of Malone was the best thing we did in the off-season, except for the hiring of Tedford.

But jettisoning Stubler was just plain dum. Stubler had a record setting defense in 2012. It was still very good in 2013. Wally wanted Washington as DC and he conveniently blamed Stubler for the playoff loss in 2013, when Durrant took off in the fourth quarter for a few big runs. Eliminian did not play in that game and McKenzie plain didn't get the job done. So we might have lost Washington. I'd lose a Washington any day of the week over a Stubler, whose CFL record as a DC is time and success proven.

It was another example of Wally favoritism, as it was with Benevedes and we're still paying for the Benevedes decision and we're paying a price for the Washington hiring at this point in time.

Maybe this defense will get turned around yet this season but right now there are no signs of it. Bighill must be frustrated playing short side deep safety when he has such a linebacker mentality. Dropping a natural linebacker (not a nickel back) into deep zone coverage as much as we do with Bighill is highly unusual. If we want to do that, we'd be wiser to substitute him and use a defensive back. But we don't need to do that. We'd be better off blitzing Bighill than dropping him off deep.

I see an offence that had a poor second half against the Argos but they also did some good things in that game early. Teams will see the tape of this last game and spy Harris in the future, as they did with Lulay at times in the past. We'll have to get better at exploiting a defense that does that but at least I feel hopeful because our offence has had good games.

Its difficult to feel hopeful in terms of our defense. The trend is not our friend.

[David]

I commented after Game 1 that we are in need of an Eric Rogers, Mo Price type speed burner to stretch the field. Hard to know where to play him though unless he's situational or replaces Arceneaux (due to the presence of the H-Back). Of course, this would also require Lulay to throw an accurate deep ball - something that's not really the strong suit in his bag of tricks.

I can't believe Tedford is going to patiently wait 'til we sort out our pass rush challenges. Wally is about to join Sekeres and Farhan on TSN1040. Interesting to see whether he believes it's execution (per the norm of stubbornly clinging to the "I-know-more-than-you-and-what's-best-for-the-team" dismissive posture) or scheme/talent that most of us recognize. Farhan is not going to let him off easily because he's none too impressed with this defense.



DH

[sj-roc]

I commented after Game 1 that we are in need of an Eric Rogers, Mo Price type speed burner to stretch the field. Hard to know where to play him though unless he's situational or replaces Arceneaux (due to the presence of the H-Back). Of course, this would also require Lulay to throw an accurate deep ball - something that's not really the strong suit in his bag of tricks.

I can't believe Tedford is going to patiently wait 'til we sort out our pass rush challenges. Wally is about to join Sekeres and Farhan on TSN1040. Interesting to see whether he believes it's execution (per the norm of stubbornly clinging to the "I-know-more-than-you-and-what's-best-for-the-team" dismissive posture) or scheme/talent that most of us recognize. Farhan is not going to let him off easily because he's none too impressed with this defense.



DH

I caught a bit of that, sounded like he was blaming it more on execution. Dennis Skulsky is also scheduled this afternoon at 2:30p with Taylor and BMac.

[WestCoastJoe]

Its difficult to feel hopeful in terms of our defense. The trend is not our friend.

Yep.

Formula vs our soft zone. Hit the seams. Hit the receivers in space. Hit them on the run. No need to hurry. Make the reads.

With Biggie and Sollie in backpedal or sideways movement, with head sometimes on the swivel, the running game can be there also.

As well, for the same reason, look for the screen pass.

Heck, it's all there. The defence is hoping you mess up, as T Harris did twice in the 1st quarter.

Just go through the reads.

[WestCoastJoe]

I can't believe Tedford is going to patiently wait 'til we sort out our pass rush challenges. Wally is about to join Sekeres and Farhan on TSN1040. Interesting to see whether he believes it's execution (per the norm of stubbornly clinging to the "I-know-more-than-you-and-what's-best-for-the-team" dismissive posture) or scheme/talent that most of us recognize. Farhan is not going to let him off easily because he's none too impressed with this defense.

Yes, I expect Wally will be on the execution theme, deflecting anything away from Mark W, at this time, and on into the future. That might change at some time of course, depending on how teams continue to attack our soft zone.

It seems to me that there is hope for our offence. Travis will no doubt relax and settle into a rhythm, taking what is there. He does have the support of good pass protection (which will be tested by the Schmos). And he has the support of a decent run game with Harris behind some good blocking.

I caught a bit of that, sounded like he was blaming it more on execution. Dennis Skulsky is also scheduled this afternoon at 2:30p with Taylor and BMac.

Not a surprise.

It will be very interesting to see how the Eskimos attack our defence. And on the flip side, it will be interesting to see how we "attack" their offence.

[DanoT]

I can't believe Tedford is going to patiently wait 'til we sort out our pass rush challenges. Wally is about to join Sekeres and Farhan on TSN1040. Interesting to see whether he believes it's execution (per the norm of stubbornly clinging to the "I-know-more-than-you-and-what's-best-for-the-team" dismissive posture) or scheme/talent that most of us recognize. Farhan is not going to let him off easily because he's none too impressed with this defense.

Yes, I expect Wally will be on the execution theme, deflecting anything away from Mark W, at this time, and on into the future. That might change at some time of course, depending on how teams continue to attack our soft zone.

It seems to me that there is hope for our offence. Travis will no doubt relax and settle into a rhythm, taking what is there. He does have the support of good pass protection (which will be tested by the Schmos). And he has the support of a decent run game with Harris behind some good blocking.

I caught a bit of that, sounded like he was blaming it more on execution. Dennis Skulsky is also scheduled this afternoon at 2:30p with Taylor and BMac.

Not a surprise.

It will be very interesting to see how the Eskimos attack our defence. And on the flip side, it will be interesting to see how we "attack" their offence.

I'm not concerned about the Esks because it is the Bombers that are the next Lions opponents. The Stamps and Esks look to be setting up to battle for 1st and 2nd, while the Lions, Bombers, and Riders vie for the final playoff spot. (a crossover doesn't seem likely this season unless it is from the east to west).

[Toppy Vann]

Wally says he fines as the GM for dead ball fines. HC for other things. Also, if u get a fine for a dead ball foul I think he said something like 'don't come to my office and see me' -

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040- ... s-1.337016

Good with Farhan and MS.

Wally also said he won't comment on the HC decisions (gamble at 3 an 4 yds) - makes the parallel to keeping what goes on his bedroom private.

But Wally did note the 5 or plays including the gamble that led to the change in the score so clearly he was not a fan of the gamble.

Pass rush is not an issue - get a clock on it but coverage breakdowns are the issue.

Talent is there....that's not an issue but breakdowns and penalties are.

++++

During the Argos game when they said Casey Creehan was the DC I wondered where Tim Burke got to and just googled and found he quit May 15 but had been absent in March. Milanovich says not a health issue. Hope he's okay. A good person - not a great situation when he came in as HC of the Bombers.

On Attendance - loved his line leading up to the comment on the affect of the blackout along the lines of 'Farhan you might not want to hear this'.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/201 ... ep-in.html

Milanovich said he received the news Thursday from Burke in a telephone call.
Asked for his reaction, Milanovich said, “disappointment,” but added this decision “wasn’t completely out of the blue” and that the team already had a succession plan in place.

“This sounds very late to you all,” the coach added, “but there have been portions of this happening for a little while. Casey is not behind like you think he is.”

Burke did not attend the major coaches meeting surrounding the CFL combine in Toronto in March and Creehan sat in on the meetings as the de facto defensive co-ordinator.

“That (Burke’s absence) was with my full knowledge and full blessing,” Milanovich said.

However, Burke did attend the mini-camp for rookies in Florida recently.

[WestCoastJoe]

I'm not concerned about the Esks because it is the Bombers that are the next Lions opponents. The Stamps and Esks look to be setting up to battle for 1st and 2nd, while the Lions, Bombers, and Riders vie for the final playoff spot. (a crossover doesn't seem likely this season unless it is from the east to west).

Yes.

I do see the Eskimos as a good test of where we are, however.

Could we surprise them? Dunno about that. Our offence could do well, I think, and that might be a pleasant surprise. Our defence? Hmmm ... That will be the test I am looking for. I don't expect the EE offence to do anything fancy. Run hard. Basic passing plays, behind good protection. Passes that hit the seams in the zone.

[DanoT]

Wally says he fines as the GM for dead ball fines. HC for other things. Also, if u get a fine for a dead ball foul I think he said something like 'don't come to my office and see me' -

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040- ... s-1.337016

Good with Farhan and MS.

Wally also said he won't comment on the HC decisions (gamble at 3 an 4 yds) - makes the parallel to keeping what goes on his bedroom private.

But Wally did note the 5 or plays including the gamble that led to the change in the score so clearly he was not a fan of the gamble.

Pass rush is not an issue - get a clock on it but coverage breakdowns are the issue.

Talent is there....that's not an issue but breakdowns and penalties are.

++++

During the Argos game when they said Casey Creehan was the DC I wondered where Tim Burke got to and just googled and found he quit May 15 but had been absent in March. Milanovich says not a health issue. Hope he's okay. A good person - not a great situation when he came in as HC of the Bombers.

On Attendance - loved his line leading up to the comment on the affect of the blackout along the lines of 'Farhan you might not want to hear this'.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/201 ... ep-in.html

Milanovich said he received the news Thursday from Burke in a telephone call.
Asked for his reaction, Milanovich said, “disappointment,” but added this decision “wasn’t completely out of the blue” and that the team already had a succession plan in place.

“This sounds very late to you all,” the coach added, “but there have been portions of this happening for a little while. Casey is not behind like you think he is.”

Burke did not attend the major coaches meeting surrounding the CFL combine in Toronto in March and Creehan sat in on the meetings as the de facto defensive co-ordinator.

“That (Burke’s absence) was with my full knowledge and full blessing,” Milanovich said.

However, Burke did attend the mini-camp for rookies in Florida recently.

I thought that Wally said something like "you are welcome to come to my office and see me". Yup a player with a fine for a dead ball foul wants to go explain to Wally why he shouldn't have got the foul and try to convince Wally to not fine him...that visit will never happen.

[Toppy Vann]

I may have misheard that but knowing Wally I can see him taking the view you better not come and see me for a dumb dead ball penalty.

[MexicoLionFan]

First, again, a huge thanks to Blitz, Joe, David, et al for all their BRILLIANT analyses of the Lions! Thanks to Toppy for so much useful and interesting info...it is all greatly appreciated.

There are so many concerns about the Lions that at times I feel like my head is going to explode, and ultimately they stem from the top down. But as Blitz said, some very effective changes were made regarding the Lions that are going to pay dividends, the question is only WHEN! Tedford brought in some excellent coaches, especially Malone with the OLine (which no longer is a problem after 11 years of issues), and we are seeing some of the benefits already. But you can also see the DISCONNECT between the TEDFORD REGIME and WALLY'S CREW. Tedford and his coaches DON'T BLAME THINGS ON OTHERS, they take personal responsibility for issues, stand by one another and promise to fix things...the hallmarks of champions. Wally and his cronies ALWAYS MAKE UP EXCUSES FOR EACH OTHER and then blame the problems on the "execution" of the players! They also DENY that there are problems to the ship EVEN WHEN THE BOW IS UNDER WATER! The hallmark of losing!

I will repeat this again, there is a DISCONNECT between what Jeff Tedford is attempting to do in BC with what Wally still has his hands on. Wally's comments yesterday..."the lack of a pass rush isn't an issue", breakdowns in the pass coverage..."talent isn't the problem here", while our OC tries to take advantage of the opposing defence with geriatric smurfs! These particular comments are designed by Wally to PROTECT HIMSELF and pass the blame onto others, when the reality of the situation doesn't bear that out. Why did the Lions O "bog down" after the 1st quarter? The Argos adjusted and challenged the Lions to beat them deep, which Lulay and the receivers couldn't execute properly. Fans here remain steadfast that the plays to Harris were still there and Cortez simply didn't take them...that's simply not true. It may look that way through a TV lens, but under Centre reading a defence, it was otherwise. The Argos placed a spy on Andrew Harris and the Lions needed to look elsewhere. As Blitz said Lulay could have kept the ball on a few occasions with the Read Option to take advantage of "the spy" but he didn't. But the biggest issue is TALENT...Lulay has NEVER been good at throwing the deep ball...and our receivers, even Manny, aren't adept at running/catching deep routes...but I don't know, maybe Ernest Jackson was??? That's not mentioned because that would lead back to WALLY and BENNY, and more of "it never happened here, not us". Why did the Argos finally get their offence back on track and their "aged rookie" QB firing on all cylinders??? Because he was GIVEN the time to work out his kinks with DECADES of time to throw from the pocket! And how does ANY TEAM exploit a deep, soft zone??? Blitz just laid out an almost INFINITE LIST of plays to do so. Soft zones are like aircraft carriers, they are intimidating and ominous to look at, but incredibly easy to attack once you regain your composure because they are SLOW TO REACT; thus quick plays, motion, flooding to one side, quick, skinny seam routes ALL WORK against this D while QBs are made to look like Joe Montana because of all the time they are given! These are PROFESSIONAL athletes, if you give them an inch they can take a mile. Attack defences DON'T GIVE INCHES, its all or nothing which puts enormous PRESSURE on the QB...what pressure do we put on opposing Offensive Coordinators or their QBS? NONE. They are free to just keep trying things until they find things that work! This is the SAME D that made MTL's rookie QB look like Joe Kapp against us. Things MUST CHANGE or by midseason our LBs (the heart and soul of our defence) will be exhausted and the entire defence will have lost whatever "swagger" they may still possess!

I see this as nothing less than a SCHISM in Lionsland. You have Tedford and his new, exciting approach to football, clashing with Wally's STALE brand of football that worked in 1978...and until Tedford is given FULL CONTROL over this franchise, the Lions "inconsistencies" are going to continue! Personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that Tedford is going to win out in this "struggle" because until Wally gives in, the Lions are going to continue losing as many as they win and play uninspiring football, which will DRIVE AWAY THE FANS! The Lions are already now at the "Mendoza line" with attendance, and even with the fall coming, if things don't start to become more entertaining, these crowds will continue to shrink not expand. Fans WANT an exciting product! Steve Burrato and Dave Ritchie coached effective, attacking, exciting products...much more of either Benevides or Washington and the fans will all be driving motorized wheelchairs to the games wearing brown and green polyester slacks!

In Jeff Tedford lies the answers to the downward slide of this franchise, through Wally lies "more of the same"...something has to give, and let's hope its sooner than later!

[Toppy Vann]

Wally says he fines as the GM for dead ball fines. HC for other things. Also, if u get a fine for a dead ball foul I think he said something like 'don't come to my office and see me' -

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040- ... s-1.337016

Good with Farhan and MS.

Wally also said he won't comment on the HC decisions (gamble at 3 an 4 yds) - makes the parallel to keeping what goes on his bedroom private.

But Wally did note the 5 or plays including the gamble that led to the change in the score so clearly he was not a fan of the gamble.

Pass rush is not an issue - get a clock on it but coverage breakdowns are the issue.

Talent is there....that's not an issue but breakdowns and penalties are.

++++

During the Argos game when they said Casey Creehan was the DC I wondered where Tim Burke got to and just googled and found he quit May 15 but had been absent in March. Milanovich says not a health issue. Hope he's okay. A good person - not a great situation when he came in as HC of the Bombers.

On Attendance - loved his line leading up to the comment on the affect of the blackout along the lines of 'Farhan you might not want to hear this'.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/201 ... ep-in.html

Milanovich said he received the news Thursday from Burke in a telephone call.
Asked for his reaction, Milanovich said, “disappointment,” but added this decision “wasn’t completely out of the blue” and that the team already had a succession plan in place.

“This sounds very late to you all,” the coach added, “but there have been portions of this happening for a little while. Casey is not behind like you think he is.”

Burke did not attend the major coaches meeting surrounding the CFL combine in Toronto in March and Creehan sat in on the meetings as the de facto defensive co-ordinator.

“That (Burke’s absence) was with my full knowledge and full blessing,” Milanovich said.

However, Burke did attend the mini-camp for rookies in Florida recently.

I thought that Wally said something like "you are welcome to come to my office and see me". Yup a player with a fine for a dead ball foul wants to go explain to Wally why he shouldn't have got the foul and try to convince Wally to not fine him...that visit will never happen.

You are right. I was multi tasking. The laughing after he said come and see me made me conclude that he would not be happy to see you if you did something dumb.

[almo89]

WCJ, Blitz, MLF, you guys really make this board special. I've learned so much about the game just by reading these post game threads for the past few years. We are a lot smaller compared to Riderfans, but it's quality over quantity. You guys are awesome.

[WestCoastJoe]

WCJ, Blitz, MLF, you guys really make this board special. I've learned so much about the game just by reading these post game threads for the past few years. We are a lot smaller compared to Riderfans, but it's quality over quantity. You guys are awesome.

Thanks, almo. I share your feelings about the quality of this site. Most people post for their own sense of satisfaction, but it is nice to hear it too.

Many, many excellent posters here.

Agreed that it is not found in other places.