About our defence - Wally is sounding like the Lions DC

[WestCoastJoe]

http://www.bclions.com/video/index/id/112699

Mark W mic'd up ...

[WestCoastJoe]

He is intense. He seems to have buy in from the players. Sollie gave him a game ball after the win over the Riders.

Conservative D? Mark W would not be the first DC to make a "bend, don't break" philosophy on defence work.

Not the fans' favourite. Not this fan's favourite.

Can one still hope that eventually we will go to more of an attack style defence?

Blitzes. Stunts. Overloads. False fronts. Movement before the snap. Feints. We have seen little of that.

We have seen few sacks.

We have seen few picks.

We have not seen run stopping.

We have seen little pressure on the QB.

We have seen zone pass defence.

We have seen 3 man rush on passing downs.

The most important thing is if the players buy in.

[Rammer]

I don't care for the 3 man rush, it seems to be counter productive for most 2nd and long plays, and even more of problem with the new rules of no contact. It allows the receivers a huge advantage of not being touched to find space and more time for the refs to call a PI on a defender.

New rules means that a DC has to adapt, and my way of thinking is to force that QB to make a throw sooner than later. Pressure D allows the D to dictate the game and not the O or reffing crew.

[TheLionKing]

Disappointed in Mark Washington and his defence so far. Where was the aggressive defence that was promised ?

[leo4life]

MW also promised a aggressive attacking defence last season as well.Never seen it.Not sure if he was told what scheme to run but why keep saying youre going to play a certain stlye and do the opposite?

[Toppy Vann]

Looks like he's a mini-Mike B. not a Dave Ritchie type.

I used to love Ritchie viewing on the sidelines where he had two injured players in front of him sending in signals with one a decoy.

Why these dudes don't learn from that is a bit surprising. MW does seem to have the ear of his players but the loud and clear messages seem to come more from SolE and AdamB - the latter impresses too and not just with his play.

I sort of thought Bighill made excellent points this year - a good leader who lets his play, discipline and words speak volumes.

The Lions are headed in the right direction.

The dressing room scene was wild for a single game win (other than play offs). Seemed they were wound up tight and had to release.

[DanoT]

Way, way, way too much 3 man rush prevent D for me.

[Blitz]

I don't care for the 3 man rush, it seems to be counter productive for most 2nd and long plays, and even more of problem with the new rules of no contact. It allows the receivers a huge advantage of not being touched to find space and more time for the refs to call a PI on a defender.

New rules means that a DC has to adapt, and my way of thinking is to force that QB to make a throw sooner than later. Pressure D allows the D to dictate the game and not the O or reffing crew.

To me, Washington is a convert of the defensive philosophy of Wally Buono and Mike Benevedes. Benevedes also benefited from having both Cameron Wake and Brent Johnson at defensive ends. They both favor or favored a four man rush with the occasional 3 man rush or five man rush and play a lot of zone. The philosophy is not to give up the big play, play conservatively, and play vanilla zone defense, forcing the offence to execute a number of plays successfully and force long drives.The only difference between a Buono defense is that we use a 6 man rotation. Benevedes went to a five man defensive line rotation and finally a six man defensive line rotation as we approached the playoffs in his final season as our defensive coordinator

Dave Ritchie was a multi-formational defensive coordinator. He used the entire book. He would bring six and seven defenders on a blitz. On a rare occasion even eight. He would rush also rush two or three defenders at times. You never knew what he was going to do. He used a lot of zone blitzes but he would also change up and play man defence. He loved to send defensive backs on blitzes and used corner, halfback, and safety blitzes. He would drop off a defensive tackle or a defensive end into coverage at times on a zone blitz.

That aggression and innovation led to a lot of sacks and turnovers in Ritchie's 3 seasons as our DC, leading to many more offensive opportuniites. Still. Ritchie had to deal with pressure from Wally to play a more conservative style.

2005 24 interceptions 19 forced fumbles 6 turnovers on downs Total 49 takeaways, Total 45 quarterback sacks (Combined 94)
2006 36 interceptions 20 forced fumbles 5 tunrovers on downs Total 61 takeaways, Total 59 quarterback sacks (Combined 110)
2007 24 interceptions 17 forced fumbles 16 turnovers on downs Total 57 takeaways Total 61 quarterback sacks (Combined 108)

Rich Stubler used a different style than Ritchie. Stubler was a chameleon who loved to line up his defense a certain way but at the snap of the football they were in a different defense. He was a master at disguising different zone coverages and using combination coverages and was even better at restricting passing yards than Ritchie while Ritchie's defenses were more aggressive in going for interceptions. Stubler waa also good at getting pressure on the quarterback, even though he was not known for that aspect of his defensive style. Stubler's defense set a number of Lions defensive category records in 2012, making it statistically the best Leo defense of all time.

2012 18 interceptions, 7 forced fumbles, 7 turnovers on downs, Total 32 takeaways, Total 47 quarterback sacks (Combined 79)
2013 21 interceptions 16 forced fumbles 9 turnovers on downs, Total 46 takeaways, Total 45 quarterback sacks (Combined 91)

Stuber was dumped by Wally after the 2013 season, making him responsible for the loss to the playoff loss to the Riders, as Durrant took off up the middle in the 4th quarter while our defense was missing Sol E. for that playoff game. Stubler was hired by Hufnagel and Stubler's defense would play an integral part of the 2014 Stamps Grey Cup victory.

Mark Washington took over as our DC in 2014. He said his defense would be more aggressive than Stubler's defenses. Didn't happen. Stubler's defense in Calgary finished 1st in the CFL in takeaways while Washington's defense finished 5th. Washington's 2014 stats are below.

2014 14 interceptions, 11 forced fumbles, 10 turnovers on downs, Total 35 takeaways, Total quarterback sacks 46 (Combined 81)

It was the lowest number of interceptions our Leos team has had in eons. We also finished 6th against the run, which had a significant impact on our 2014 season. We actually were not that bad last season at sacking the quarterback and Bazzie and Smith were up there amongst the leaders in sacks. Considering how rarely we blitz our quarterback sack numbers were decent.

A lot of focus has been on our defensive line. But like our defensive backs our defensive line is also hamstrung by a vanilla scheme. We mostly rush four in a 6 man rotation while restricting our defensive lineman to their lanes. We rarely stunt, cross, or loop as WCJ points out. Defensive lineman only have so many individual moves. Other CFL defensive lines benefit a lot more from stunts, blitzes, and formation, as well as end-tackle, tackle/linebacker, and end/linebacker games. Their blitzes often serve as run blitzes as well as pass blitzes.

Washington said again in the off-season that he would be more aggressive in 2015 than he was in 2014. So far we are waiting.

I really don`t belive the major issue is our defensive line. I believe the bigger issue is our defensive philosophy. I believe we are not getting the most out of our talent because our defense is too vanilla, too predictable, and does not provide enough opportunities for players as Bighill to showcase all their talents.

[WestCoastJoe]

Well said, Blitz.

And thanks for the stats to back up our impressions.

Ya know, if a guy is a conservative DC, and makes it work, OK. But to speak about an attacking defence, well, where is it?

As noted numerous times, by yourself, by me, and others, it seems to me you have to mix it up. Not always the same.

At different times, bring them from everywhere.

For a DC who cannot bring himself to play an attack style, I understand that. They think they can do it. They want to do it. But then, in the face of it, they don't really believe in it, and they find they end up playing it safe, trying to prevent the big play and hoping. I recall J.R. LaRose following his assignment, way deep behind the goal posts, miles out of the play, seemingly 30 or 35 yards deep. But, Hey, no big play. Or maybe they get the big play anyway. LOL

I saw it in amateur sports, both in schools, and in the community. It takes a certain mentality to go all in on a defence. Excuses get made. They come up with: "Well, against a solid conservative defence, they have to make 12 purrfect plays to score." "They don't get deep against us." "If they blitz us, we make them pay." Baloney. They can score in a flash against vanilla also. And you don't get the stops. And you don't get the turnovers. And you don't energize your team. You don't build a ferocious mentality on defence. You react. You do not initiate. You do not intimidate.

Basketball analogy. "Oh, we can't run the press because we are not quick enough." "If they press us, we get layups at the other end." Baloney. You can run it. And you can run it safely, if you know how.

If you don't truly believe in it, of course you cannot run it.

Benevides talked about running all kinds of fronts and stunts. Nonsense and baloney. He went conservative.

It looks like Mark W is going the same way.

As noted, at least MW seems to have player buy in, as with Solomon.

No Don Matthews for us. No Chris Jones for us. Not even a Noel Thorpe for us. No livin' on the edge. More of a Wally Buono defence. Take no chances. Make them pick their way down the field against your soft zone. And that is something they are doing against us, making their way down the field.

Just IMO, as a fan of the CFL ...

[Rodu]

I wonder if the personal on the D line and the green secondary has forced Washington to change his style

[SammyGreene]

Way, way, way too much 3 man rush prevent D for me.

Me too. It's funny because on the Hoffman-Ellis INT last Friday I was complaining from the stands it was just a 3-man rush and then Glenn served up one of those brain farts we saw too many times last season.

As BC Fan pointed out in another thread, that second Dressler TD was very painful to watch as it was a huge mismatch against Bighill and Glenn had a ton of time.

If you are rushing just 4 or even 3 a lot of the times, you better have some outstanding d-lineman and the Lions simply don't. I really think we are re-visiting the first couple of years of Wally's era in BC (2003-04) where the Lions needed a high-octane offence in every game to overcome a shaky defence that was prone to giving up a lot of yards.

The good news is it leads to a lot of wide open football and tight games in the No Lead is Safe league.

[Dusty]

It seems to me that our defensive line strategy is predicated on a "one game behind" philosophy. What I mean is that the next game plan is on fixing what went wrong in the last game. So with the Sask game, the focus for the lineman was on staying in their lanes and getting more stops at the line of scrimmage since in the Ottawa game, the run shred our line and forced the linebackers and DB to make the stops. The problem with this philosophy is that it is fundamentally reactive and pretty much forces a vanilla zone backfield to account for the whatever the Offence is doing, since the defence doesn't appear to have the skill or the willingness to take charge and attack with blitzes or pressure.

Of course, having the horses to be a pressure defensive line would help.

[WestCoastJoe]

On defense, we were even better in 2012. Stubler's defense eclipsed the Head Hunters defense of 1964 in terms of dominance. Our 2012 defense set a number of CFL records and finished first in a total of 11 defensive categories - Fewest First Downs RushingFewest First Downs Passing, Fewest Yds Net Offence, Fewest Average Yds Offence Per Game, Fewest Yds Net Rushing, Fewest Yds Average Yds. Rushing Per Game, Fewest Times Rushed Against, Lowest Average Yds. Per Pass, Fewest Yds Net Passing, Fewest Yds Average Passing Per Game, Fewest Plays from Scrimmage.

This was the most dominant regular season defence in Leo history. In fact, the 2012 regular season B.C. Lions were the best Leo team in history. One season later, Buono and Benevedes pulled the pin on both Chapdelaine and Stubler, replacing them with Khari Jones and Mark Washington.

http://lionbackers.com/bc_lions/viewtop ... =2&t=28197

I had forgotten how dominant that Stubler defence was, Blitz.

For myself, I tend to not think of Rich Stubler as a pressure defence guy. More of a mix it up DC. The offence has a very difficult time figuring out how to attack his defence, as it has so many faces, so many looks, so many different plays.

Benny must have felt threatened by the shadow of Rich Stubler. As Stubler said, when he got fired by Benny and Wally, he was hired by Calgary in about 20 minutes. LOL

[Toppy Vann]

Great insights and stats.

Ritchie left as he was underpaid IMO and he could have/should have been the role model for MB - but wasn't.

WB should have told MB to go stand beside DR when the team was DEF and learn the role. Instead even when they were on DEF, MB was "himself" - strutting up and down the sideline trying to compete with the OC for attention.

The stats paint a story and the attack DEF promises of MW never happen.

[WestCoastJoe]

We managed 2 sacks and an Int. vs the Riders in the 27-24 win.

But we gave Glenn oodles of time.

We played an extremely soft zone.

We got softer as the game got nearer to the end.

We had Biggie and Solo running their legs off in pass coverage. Meanwhile Messam and Allen were seldom stopped by our scheme.

We had Biggie and Solo 25 yards deep in zone pass defence. Bizarre, but it does suit an ultra conservative philosophy.

We seemed to use the 3 man rush less often.

We gave up conversions on 2nd and long over and over.

Without pressure, I doubt anybody in this world can cover Weston Dressler one on one.

Without pressure, Kevin Glenn is going to pass for 300 yards.

To me, our defensive philosophy is unsuited to the modern CFL. And because our philosophy is ultra conservative, when we try to blitz, we do not know how to make it effective. Hello, here comes the blitz.

Even with a 4 man rush, in passing downs, Biggie and Solo are in zone pass defence, or running with a receiver. Pretty tough to come up and challenge a screen pass to Messam from that position.

We gave up 360 yards passing.

We gave up 157 yards on the ground.

We can't stop the run.

And we can't stop the pass.

The guys are highly motivated, and playing their legs off. But our scheme is soft as vanilla ice cream.

Our motto: We play soft zone.

And what of our first round draft pick? Is he able to contribute to our defence? Or is he a project?