Is it time to start a defensive tackle airlfit?

[DanoT]

From watching on TV, I have seen no evidence of the ability to stop the run and very little pressure on the QB from the two rookie import tackles. Maybe things look different on game film, but I see no improvement, no potential at DT all through TC, preseason and now 2 regular season games. While NFL cuts are months away, guys like Eric Taylor and the other guy cut by Calgary are still around.

The cast off DTs from other teams can't be any worse than the Lions starters IMO. What do you other Lionbackers think?

[B.C.FAN]

The Lions can't go into Saskatchewan with the same defensive front they used this week.

The first option is Zach Minter, who won the nose tackle job in training camp but has missed the first two games with an ankle injury. He is listed at 307 pounds, which makes him 40 pounds heavier than his replacement Craig Roh. That's a big advantage but I'm still not sure that he can get the job done. I thought he got pushed around a lot in preseason, as did Roh in the first two regular season games.

A more dramatic move, and uncharacteristic of Wally Buono, would be to bring back Eric Taylor, who was released by Calgary on cutdown day and appears to be a free agent. I don't know what kind of shape he's in but I've never seen him get manhandled the way this year's DTs have been. It would be more characteristic for Wally to bring in younger free agents but the pickings might be slim until NFL teams start to reduce their rosters.

[TheLionKing]

I agree with DanoT, the interior of the defensive line is not providing any push up the middle. They're getting pancaked on the line of scrimmage. Maybe they're having trouble adjusting to the one yard off the ball.

[Rodu]

Roh looks undersized. If we're shopping, might as well look at some ends too

[Larry Key]

Roh is a DE if he was playing 4 down ball. He's way too light and long limbed to play the tackle spot. I'm not impressed with Brooks either. Both are undersized to be playing that role. If they don't improve in those 2 positions, it's going to be a long season for our DB's.

[pennw]

The thing with Roh is , that he may well be a decent DE , but we won't know that as long as he's out of position . And Westerman is also out of position which seems to be dictated by the other non-imports we have backing him up being DEs . As for our first rounder , did he even get on the field ? This leaves me to think our first pick was squandered . Westerman should be moved back to his DT spot , but that makes our first rounder useless .
I can't see Wally bringing Eric Taylor back because that goes against his ways of doing things . He did say that about bringing Mitchell back , that it was a mistake . The guy Calgary released does sound interesting , but I can't see Wally doing that for the same reason . And maybe he is past his prime too . Hufnagel seemed to think so as shown by the fact he cut him early.

Some of this May be on Tedford though , and maybe it's part of the learning curve for him coming from the college ranks .When they were recruiting DTs , they were all alarmingly small for the CFL . That size DT may have passed in college or the CFL of 20 years ago , but now with OL be near the same size as NFL OL , DTs need to be bigger as well. There was really not much effort on recruiting DTs from what I could see , a bunch of undersized guys were were quickly signed just shortly before TC . There probably are still some out there that have been over looked , but first our brass needs see that there is a need . It may be that we won't see anything until NFL cuts start becoming available .

[pennw]

Having said all that , watching Fridays game , I didn't , see the Rider DL being any better than ours . And they are supposed to be good one with Chick , Terrieus George and Alex Hall . All those guys were non-factors against our rookie OL .

[Hambone]

Maybe the sack results weren't there but they drew 3 holding calls and an illegal hands to the face all committed by the Riders' best veteran interior OL in veteran guards Brendan Labatte and Chris Best.

Maybe it's just me but seems that teams aren't sending extra defenders on stunts and blitzes this year like they used to. Most of the time it's 4 or 3 man rushes only. Perhaps this is a by-product of the new illegal contact rules? Prior to those changes DCs could attack the passer more aggressively because they knew it was so easy for the DBs to jam receivers farther downfield and get away with the little tugs and holds that made it difficult for receivers to gain any separation.

[WestCoastJoe]

I have had the hunch since the draft that our first round pick was "wishing and hoping," not solid football thinking. Way too deep down the ratings board. Way too few stats in college. Undersized for inside play. One of those picks where later you ask: "What was I thinking?"

Someone on the staff "fell in love" with the pick, visualized that athletic body type as suddenly becoming a rush end monster, and sold it to the others. To this fan, it was "pie in the sky" thinking, not reality based.

By now shouldn't we have seen some glimmer of potential from the young man. This young man was admittedly shocked he was picked so high.

So it seems to me.

IMO D Line play is based on physical attributes and instincts to a degree that allows many of them to step right in and be productive.

Does it look like that is in the works for Ese? He seems like a "long term" project at best. And "long term" project pretty much means bust.

I wish my hunch was wrong.

I think we heard Jeff Tedford sign on publicly for the draft responsibility. But, it seems to me, re decision making for drafting and recruiting, the GM brings the pkayers in. And the Head Coach decides who stays, and who plays. The GM "brings them in." And the HC "ships them out."

..................

Rich Stubler knows what it takes for a guy to play D Line in the CFL. It seems to me we have been wayward in his absence. One of the worst aspects of the Mike Benevides three year slide was letting his mentor go. Stubler can coach up a defence in ways that Benny could only dream about. And Mark W seems stuck in a very passive mindset for his defence.

Size. Explosiveness. Take on blockers. Penetrate. Blow up plays. Aside from Khreem Smith, and Jabar Westerman to a degree, we are getting very little productivity from our D Line.

Making this worse ... MW's defence needs a dominant D Line. He does not help the D Line with blitzes, stunts or overloods. It is just the opposite of that. He sends 4 only. And on passing downs he sends 3. We don't defend the run well either. It is all reactive, not attacking.

One sees slim hopes for improvement as things stand now.
..........

One faint hope: Solomon giving a game ball to Mark W for his game plan vs the Riders. Does Mark W see things we fans don't see? Does he have a superior plan that is not evident to us? LOL Or is that just giving too much benefit of the doubt?

Just IMO ...

[David]

YES!!! We've given up 315 yards along the ground in 2 games, and have only registered 3 sacks. When our defensive line is getting pushed back like they have, it's not allowing our linebackers to scrape. The club may try to spin it (they usually do), but just didn't do a good enough off-season recruiting job in this area. It's that simple. They needed to replace 3 defensive tackles in the off-season (for Eric Taylor and Khalif....Jabar Westerman was moved outside this year, a move I didn't agree with) and brought in 6 Internationals to camp - not including Craig Roh who was signed as a DE.

Michael Brooks was behind the now departed Tim Jackson in the training camp depth chart and hasn't shown me much (other than a brain lock roughing the passer call against him that extended a 3rd and long Friday night). Craig Roh is playing out of position and is undersized. It's not his fault that he's getting rag-dolled. He was a hybrid DE/linebacker at U of Michigan, meaning he was a rush end that would occasionally spy the quarterback and drop into coverage. He's not a natural tackle, listed at 265 lbs! Roh is replacing the injured Zach Minter whom the club was counting on at camp, but he's nursing a calf injury. While he may develop into a competent DT, he looked like a "JAG" in the preseason ('just another guy').

If Wally thinks he can continue with this group, and has a better defensive tackle than Eric Taylor, then any week now a "Gary Butler Award" candidate will emerge. He probably feels vindicated by the fact Taylor was cut by the Stamps. Granted, he was 33 but he can at least stuff the run and take on a double team, something that hasn't been evident from Brooks. The club likely won't find a great candidate from the US until September, but should be scouring late CFL cuts, or practice rosters for someone they can put on our 44 man roster.


DH

[David]

BTW, this is in no way an indictment on Khreem Smith, who continues to do everything - big and small - really well.


DH

[pennw]

The thing with Ese is that if he's a DE and Westermann is a DT , then would it not make more sense to play each guy in the proper place ? Some sort of rotation that leaves each in the right place ? Could it not be done ? Even if it required 2 guys to swap ? Like ROH(or Bazzie)and Westermann in , then Ese plus another import DT coming in ? Instead we have a number of guys playing out of position and our top pick not at all . Bottom line is if Ese is a first rounder he should be playing , like other first rounders do .Otherwise we should have picked some one else who we would have played instead of spectating . I for one would like see Ese rush the passer in a game to see what he can do . I seem to recall we even by-passed some DTs who would have been a good fit rotating with Westermann , in order to get Ese .

[Hambone]

Bottom line is if Ese is a first rounder he should be playing , like other first rounders do .

Best as I can tell there are only 2 players out of this year's entire draft class who are starting. One is 2nd overall pick Sukh Chung in Winnipeg. The other is Rider 3rd rounder DT Rory Connop who isn't exactly lighting things up with 1 tackle to show for 3 starts. EMA is just one of five first rounders who are playing in a backup role or on special teams.

[CardiacKid]

I did a comparison of each team's starting Defensive Tackles from this weekend's play to see where they all stacked up in terms of their combined weight. The inference being a larger interior is less susceptible to the run, is better equipped to collapse the pocket and needs less help from the linebackers and defensive backs to create pressure. I used each team's most current depth chart and their online rosters to crunch the numbers.

Of the teams playing this weekend, the Lions had the smallest combined interior at 540 lbs. The next smallest was the Riders at 559 and the largest was Montreal's at 587. Hamilton's is the biggest overall at 598. So you can see the Lions are easily giving way in the size department.

If Minter and McFarland were made starters, our middle then becomes a combined 612lbs.

While at the game, I tried to concentrate on the play of the D-Line and could see they were working it as best they could. It did result in some holding calls and other infractions. But they are too small and without a decent rotation against a no-huddle offence, they are going to be physically exhausted towards the end of games....just when you really need a line to stop the run and prevent the opposition from eating up the clock.

As far as airlifting in currently available recruits, I think the Lions should look at Demonte Bolden before Eric Taylor. Don't get me wrong, I loved having Big Eric on the team and was incredulous when the Lions let him go before training camp. Some parties pointed to his diminishing stats but I thought he was poorly served by having Mitchell as his interior partner last year. But Bolden is younger and experienced which can help a very young D-Line aside from Khreem Smith.

As an aside....if the Esks ever let Eddie Jefferson (#99) go, the Lions need to scoop him up. He is big and fast with a massive wing span; during the pre-season game at UBC, he continually ate up our OTs.

[CardiacKid]

Re: Ese...it is way too early to make a determination as to how his Lions career ends up. We have seen a guy like Rickey Foley become an effective pass rusher in the CFL after being a high draft pick based on his athleticism and not necessarily his footballing instinct. If the Lions can sort out their pass rush and get a blue chipper who is a constant threat to produce sacks, that will elevate everyone's game on the D-line, including Ese's.